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Froome's achievement

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cinelli
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Froome's achievement

#141855

Postby cinelli » May 28th, 2018, 12:27 pm

I salute Chris Froome’s achievement in winning the Giro. Simon Yates’s collapse and Froome’s riding from the field on stage 19 were remarkable. This sort of thing just does not happen in major races any more, where the leading contenders are so heavily marked. You can see an hour’s highlights in this Quest TV programme:

https://www.questtv.co.uk/video/giro-2018#5789936585001

Note Froome’s enigmatic reply to the question before the stage, “Can you still win the Giro?” “Nibali turned round a deficit of four minutes so anything is possible.”

Cinelli

zico
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Re: Froome's achievement

#141888

Postby zico » May 28th, 2018, 2:44 pm

What's your take on the drugs issue?

Personally, whatever the eventual decision, I think it's a complete farce that an Adverse Analytical Finding in September hasn't been cleared up before now, so a rider can win a big race with such an important issue unresolved.

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Re: Froome's achievement

#142060

Postby cinelli » May 29th, 2018, 11:28 am

I agree with zico. I am completely mystified why this is still dragging on, five months after the announcement. Like a lot of cycling fans, with the probable exception of his rivals, I hope the case is dropped.

Cinelli

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Re: Froome's achievement

#142103

Postby todthedog » May 29th, 2018, 4:01 pm

Zico +2
Not even certain Froome will be allowed to compete in the Tour

didds
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Re: Froome's achievement

#142242

Postby didds » May 30th, 2018, 9:41 am

+1 here too.

I cannot fathom why it can take so long to come to a conclusion over this. Presumably there are only so many samples to be tested, and have been.

there is only so much data to check - and there's been plenty of time to do so.

Unless (and those here that understand this better may be able to shed more light?) now there is a question mark the PTB are just checking data on an ongoing basis "for ever" until effectively they can come up with a a "positive" result/answer.

WRT to rifing the TdF this year or not, presumably "they" have to make a call very soon. Part of me thinks with the three grand tours in the bag maybe its a year to talke a rest ... but then equally - why wold sky do that after all?

didds

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Re: Froome's achievement

#142255

Postby staffordian » May 30th, 2018, 10:34 am

It seems to me that the delay over Froome must be political or legal rather than technical, because as others have pointed out, the science is surely quite clear cut.

There seems a total lack of information coming out about this. Normally, leaks or off the record briefings ensure some information appears, but unless I've missed something, there has been a wall of silence since the initial information was released about the raised level.

Very strange, in my opinion. What do others think?

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Re: Froome's achievement

#142266

Postby Ashfordian » May 30th, 2018, 11:14 am

staffordian wrote:It seems to me that the delay over Froome must be political or legal rather than technical, because as others have pointed out, the science is surely quite clear cut.

There seems a total lack of information coming out about this. Normally, leaks or off the record briefings ensure some information appears, but unless I've missed something, there has been a wall of silence since the initial information was released about the raised level.

Very strange, in my opinion. What do others think?


The initial failed test was leaked rather than released. This should have all been happening behind closed doors until resolved so we should not be aware of it at the current time. Additionally, because of the drug involved, it is not a suspension so the rider is allowed to ride until the case is resolved.

I sure that because of the rider and team involved means it is political/legal

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Re: Froome's achievement

#142439

Postby zico » May 30th, 2018, 11:48 pm

Here are the facts, as I understand them, with a bit of conjecture of my own.

Facts - Last year in the Vuelta (Spain) Froome came back from a bad day to have a very strong racing day, but was then found to have excessive levels of salbutamol, recording 2,000 (later revised to 1,400) when the permitted level was 1,000. This is an (AAF) Adverse Analytical Finding (not the same as failing a doping test, because salbutamol isn't completely banned, riders are just not allowed to have levels higher than 1,000). Salbutamol is an anti-asthama drug, not considered (in small levels) to improve performance, but is known to be potentially a masking agent for other drugs.

Under the rules Froome is allowed time to provide a satisfactory reason for this high level, and if he doesn't provide a satisfactory explanation, a range of punishments could then be applied. If he doesn't provide a satisfactory reason, it's almost certain he'd be stripped of his Vuelta victory, and it's totally unclear what would happen about his Giro win.

Froome has said he and his team doctor have always being extremely careful about ensuring they don't exceed this limit, and they're just astonished by this high reading.

Crucially, there appears to be no time-limit on how long he has to provide a satisfactory reason. (It's been ongoing since last September) and it's not clear whether the governing body can make a decision if Froome/Sky say "we need more time to provide a reason".
During this period Froome simply says "I can't say anything yet, but will when the time is right, and I know I've done nothing wrong, and I'm confident I'll be completely cleared".
This process should have been kept confidential, but it was leaked to the Guardian.

Opinions/view - Apparently Sky have been looking at a whole range of possible acceptable reasons, and if they'd found a satisfactory one, they would simply have presented it by now. So the presumption is that after 8 months, they're still searching. It's reported that one option considered was to claim that Froome's kidneys only worked every other day, so any test results should be halved, but cycling's ruling body weren't wearing that one - unsurprisingly! It's been reported that since January, Sky's approach has been to widen the question to the whole validity of the rules on salbutamol levels, in effect saying "this shouldn't have been a rule anyway" on the grounds there's no measurable effect on performance.

What happens next? Well, lawyers are heavily involved in this, so Sky may be using their financial muscle to threaten the ruling body with massive lawsuits, on the grounds that Froome breaking their rule doesn't justify any punishment that would affect his finances or reputation. Froome's supporters also appear to be advancing the view that this is a pointless rule, and doesn't account for his great performances, so we just should be ignoring it all.

If Sky simply announce Froome has been cleared and refuse to provide their reasoning and rationale, presumably the cycling world will split into those who think Froome is OK, so everything must be above board, nothing to see hear. On the other side there will be people who think they've been fooled by drug cheats before, and once again the cheats have got the upper hand. Whatever happens, it's certainly a fair cry from Sky's initial ethos of not only being pure about drugs, but transparent and being seen to be above suspicion.

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Re: Froome's achievement

#142705

Postby didds » June 1st, 2018, 8:50 am

cheers zico for that summary - so I suppose its in effect down to cycling's authorities to set a deadline with repercussions... because if its now taken several months purely because Sky seem to have (for want of a better description) taken a long term approach to saying nothing, how long before it becomes "irrelevant" or just "dropped/forgotten" ?

If anything these rules need to be tightened to have a time limit provided going forward so that riders/teams can just ignore such requirements.

As a Sky supporter fundamentally I feel very uneasy with all this obfusctaion that still goes on, particularly after the Wiggins triamcinolone stuff. For a team that is (or was?) so vocally anti-drugs, there appears to be some levels of greyness and less than open communications over these.

Of course the entire area is muddied because of perceived anti Sky/Froome/Wiggins sentiments amongst rivals, and the legacy that the likes of Armstrong have left us all.

I think IF Frrome and Sky were proved to have cheated then that probably would be the end of my pro cycling interest.

Last night there was a pro crit in Salisbury - I couldn't attend for various reasons, but I just wonder how many of those pros and semi-pros are on "something" as well. And I realise that is the the result of all of the cycling drug cheats - one ends up not trusting anybody racing a bike.


didds

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Re: Froome's achievement

#144061

Postby UncleIan » June 6th, 2018, 9:06 am

Like Fox Mulder - I want to believe

Sir Dave and chums on "that" giro stage...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/44372328

Interesting read.

Ian

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Re: Froome's achievement

#149428

Postby Snorvey » July 2nd, 2018, 10:50 am

Chris Froome's anti-doping case has been dropped by cycling's world governing body.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/44679483

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Re: Froome's achievement

#149943

Postby Snorvey » July 4th, 2018, 12:20 pm

Team Sky have taken the unprecedented step of releasing a cache of data to BBC Sport detailing Chris Froome's diet, power output and heart-rate from the Briton's victory in May's Giro d'Italia.


1 hour and 5 minutes at 400w? Blimey


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/44694122

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Re: Froome's achievement

#149953

Postby Snorvey » July 4th, 2018, 12:41 pm

Additonal:

His maximum heart-rate was on the final climb - 159. His resting heart-rate that morning was 32, or one beat every two seconds. He has a remarkably low heart-rate but it's the same for a lot of elite athletes.

Resting heartbeat = 32 bmp.... : :shock: That's almost dead!

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Re: Froome's achievement

#149967

Postby swill453 » July 4th, 2018, 1:18 pm

Snorvey wrote:Resting heartbeat = 32 bmp.... : :shock: That's almost dead!

Could be partly due to genetics. My resting heart rate is about 42, and I'm no athlete.

Scott.

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Re: Froome's achievement

#149975

Postby vrdiver » July 4th, 2018, 1:37 pm

swill453 wrote:
Snorvey wrote:Resting heartbeat = 32 bmp.... : :shock: That's almost dead!

Could be partly due to genetics. My resting heart rate is about 42, and I'm no athlete.

Scott.


In my teens, my resting heart rate (RHR) was 50. Despite now being much older and significantly less fit, my RHR has dropped to 41.

I expect the trend to continue, ultimately achieving a RHR of 0 :lol:

VRD

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Re: Froome's achievement

#149982

Postby UncleIan » July 4th, 2018, 2:17 pm

Snorvey wrote:1 hour and 5 minutes at 400w? Blimey


Interesting read. Even if I didn't understand a lot of it. This stood out though...

On stage 19 he ate 1.3kg of carbs - enough calories for four men to get through an ordinary day. Even his recovery snack contains 2,500 calories


Blimey indeed!

Ian

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Re: Froome's achievement

#149994

Postby Ashfordian » July 4th, 2018, 2:38 pm

Snorvey wrote:Additonal:

His maximum heart-rate was on the final climb - 159. His resting heart-rate that morning was 32, or one beat every two seconds. He has a remarkably low heart-rate but it's the same for a lot of elite athletes.

Resting heartbeat = 32 bmp.... : :shock: That's almost dead!


As they say the resting heart rate is not unusual for an elite athlete. For example Miguel Indurain's resting HR was 28bpm.

What is exceptional about Froome is his low max HR. We've seen it in data he has released before. You would expect this number to be up in the 170's or 180's as a minimum although when you fatigue you are unable to reach your max HR numbers that you achieve when you are fresh. Although he did say after the stage that it was a managed effort and he never went too deep and this proves it

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Re: Froome's achievement

#150123

Postby Ashfordian » July 5th, 2018, 10:27 am

Snorvey wrote:Team Sky have taken the unprecedented step of releasing a cache of data to BBC Sport detailing Chris Froome's diet, power output and heart-rate from the Briton's victory in May's Giro d'Italia.


1 hour and 5 minutes at 400w? Blimey


https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cycling/44694122


There's a good BBC cycling podcast on this which is the content behind the article

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Re: Froome's achievement

#150215

Postby UncleEbenezer » July 5th, 2018, 2:17 pm

Snorvey wrote:Team Sky have taken the unprecedented step

Surely the more interesting question is, what information they might have released, and on whom, if the case hadn't been dropped.

Must be something pretty juicy!

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Re: Froome's achievement

#150348

Postby Ashfordian » July 5th, 2018, 10:04 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
Snorvey wrote:Team Sky have taken the unprecedented step

Surely the more interesting question is, what information they might have released, and on whom, if the case hadn't been dropped.

Must be something pretty juicy!


Could it be Team Sky have released this information to mess with the heads of their opponents by saying this is what you are up against with the TdF just around the corner?


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