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Please engage brain Mr Range Rover

On road, off road, Mamils, Club rides or just share your routes and tips
redsturgeon
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Please engage brain Mr Range Rover

#100539

Postby redsturgeon » December 1st, 2017, 2:02 pm

My son cycles the mile into college every morning, along the main road into the centre of Winchester.

I have schooled him to cycle assertively, taking his lane about a metre from the kerb which makes it difficult for cars to squeeze by if a car is coming in the opposite direction. He travels at 20 mph so does not hold up traffic much as it feeds into a major junction that always has traffic queues and is then in a 20 mph city centre zone. The vast majority of drivers are happy to drive with care and consideration on this urban road.

This morning he was cycling as usual when a Range Rover blasts his horn at him, then squeezes by, well within the 1.5 metre zone recommended by the police. He is ahead of my son for all of 100 metres before having to stop for traffic. My son overtakes and as he does the window is wound down...no doubt for the ignorant owner to tell my son off. My son pulls in in front of the car and just looks at the driver pityingly before riding off leaving the Range Rover to sit for several minutes in the queue he was able to join 10 seconds earlier by virtue of an unsafe and aggressive pass.

I can see why many cyclist have video cams.

John

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Re: Please engage brain Mr Range Rover

#100545

Postby UncleIan » December 1st, 2017, 2:16 pm

redsturgeon wrote:I can see why many cyclist have video cams.


Christmas is coming.

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Re: Please engage brain Mr Range Rover

#100554

Postby moorfield » December 1st, 2017, 3:00 pm

redsturgeon wrote:I have schooled him to cycle assertively, taking his lane about a metre from the kerb which makes it difficult for cars to squeeze by if a car is coming in the opposite direction.


Assertively but not inconsiderately I hope. Experienced cyclists should also be aware of traffic behind them - particularly those Sunday ones - and know their lane position can/does wind drivers up and be able to adjust accordingly. As a cyclist I make a point of waving to/thanking passing drivers in either direction if I can, and on dark/quiet/bendy roads I deliberately put myself nearer the middle so I am seen well before I am reached. That said many drivers don't also appreciate that road cambers cause edges to fill up with water/leaves/crip that cyclists like to avoid anyway. Helmet cams are certainly the way forward on busier roads.

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Re: Please engage brain Mr Range Rover

#100614

Postby beeswax » December 1st, 2017, 6:19 pm

redsturgeon wrote:My son cycles the mile into college every morning, along the main road into the centre of Winchester.

I have schooled him to cycle assertively, taking his lane about a metre from the kerb which makes it difficult for cars to squeeze by if a car is coming in the opposite direction. He travels at 20 mph so does not hold up traffic much as it feeds into a major junction that always has traffic queues and is then in a 20 mph city centre zone. The vast majority of drivers are happy to drive with care and consideration on this urban road.

This morning he was cycling as usual when a Range Rover blasts his horn at him, then squeezes by, well within the 1.5 metre zone recommended by the police. He is ahead of my son for all of 100 metres before having to stop for traffic. My son overtakes and as he does the window is wound down...no doubt for the ignorant owner to tell my son off. My son pulls in in front of the car and just looks at the driver pityingly before riding off leaving the Range Rover to sit for several minutes in the queue he was able to join 10 seconds earlier by virtue of an unsafe and aggressive pass.

I can see why many cyclist have video cams.

John


John, a metre seems quite a wide berth from the kerb and no wonder car drivers get impatient and wonder if that could be reduced to half that distance from the kerb? Also 20 mph seems quite fast to me anyway? Also some cyclists I have seen don't always stop at traffic lights and meander across the junction. I was always taught as a car driver to give cyclists enough room to fall off their bike and if cars are doing that it doesn't leave that much room for passing cars coming in the other direction.

Maybe its another topic but shouldn't cyclists have insurance nowadays?

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Re: Please engage brain Mr Range Rover

#100629

Postby Ashfordian » December 1st, 2017, 7:19 pm

beeswax wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:My son cycles the mile into college every morning, along the main road into the centre of Winchester.

I have schooled him to cycle assertively, taking his lane about a metre from the kerb which makes it difficult for cars to squeeze by if a car is coming in the opposite direction. He travels at 20 mph so does not hold up traffic much as it feeds into a major junction that always has traffic queues and is then in a 20 mph city centre zone. The vast majority of drivers are happy to drive with care and consideration on this urban road.

This morning he was cycling as usual when a Range Rover blasts his horn at him, then squeezes by, well within the 1.5 metre zone recommended by the police. He is ahead of my son for all of 100 metres before having to stop for traffic. My son overtakes and as he does the window is wound down...no doubt for the ignorant owner to tell my son off. My son pulls in in front of the car and just looks at the driver pityingly before riding off leaving the Range Rover to sit for several minutes in the queue he was able to join 10 seconds earlier by virtue of an unsafe and aggressive pass.

I can see why many cyclist have video cams.

John


John, a metre seems quite a wide berth from the kerb and no wonder car drivers get impatient and wonder if that could be reduced to half that distance from the kerb? Also 20 mph seems quite fast to me anyway? Also some cyclists I have seen don't always stop at traffic lights and meander across the junction. I was always taught as a car driver to give cyclists enough room to fall off their bike and if cars are doing that it doesn't leave that much room for passing cars coming in the other direction.

Maybe its another topic but shouldn't cyclists have insurance nowadays?


Every point in your post is wrong. I suggest you go out cycling for a couple of weeks and see if you continue to endorse the points you have made.

1m from the curb is about correct, your suggestion of 50cm is too close and gives no escape room for close(punishment) passes or other unexpected events. 50cm is riding across the edges of water drain covers, way too close to the curb. Riding close the curb encourages drivers to try to squeeze through more. Drivers will generally pass a cyclist in a safer way if a dangerous pass puts their own life in danger. This is what the riding the OP describes promotes.

20mph is a good speed to travel on a bike. The faster you are the safer you are.

In the above example, it is an idiot driver who is rushing to get to the back of the next queue. They made no time up. What was the point?

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Re: Please engage brain Mr Range Rover

#100631

Postby moorfield » December 1st, 2017, 7:27 pm

beeswax wrote:Maybe its another topic but shouldn't cyclists have insurance nowadays?


Well it's a logical step on. Many cyclists may already and indirectly have some personal injury cover via home, work, health schemes etc. I imagine virtually none will have any 3rd party cover (edit: again, indirectly, they may have some legal expenses cover).

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Re: Please engage brain Mr Range Rover

#100637

Postby beeswax » December 1st, 2017, 7:48 pm

Ashfordian wrote:
beeswax wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:My son cycles the mile into college every morning, along the main road into the centre of Winchester.

I have schooled him to cycle assertively, taking his lane about a metre from the kerb which makes it difficult for cars to squeeze by if a car is coming in the opposite direction. He travels at 20 mph so does not hold up traffic much as it feeds into a major junction that always has traffic queues and is then in a 20 mph city centre zone. The vast majority of drivers are happy to drive with care and consideration on this urban road.

This morning he was cycling as usual when a Range Rover blasts his horn at him, then squeezes by, well within the 1.5 metre zone recommended by the police. He is ahead of my son for all of 100 metres before having to stop for traffic. My son overtakes and as he does the window is wound down...no doubt for the ignorant owner to tell my son off. My son pulls in in front of the car and just looks at the driver pityingly before riding off leaving the Range Rover to sit for several minutes in the queue he was able to join 10 seconds earlier by virtue of an unsafe and aggressive pass.

I can see why many cyclist have video cams.

John


John, a metre seems quite a wide berth from the kerb and no wonder car drivers get impatient and wonder if that could be reduced to half that distance from the kerb? Also 20 mph seems quite fast to me anyway? Also some cyclists I have seen don't always stop at traffic lights and meander across the junction. I was always taught as a car driver to give cyclists enough room to fall off their bike and if cars are doing that it doesn't leave that much room for passing cars coming in the other direction.

Maybe its another topic but shouldn't cyclists have insurance nowadays?


Every point in your post is wrong. I suggest you go out cycling for a couple of weeks and see if you continue to endorse the points you have made.

1m from the curb is about correct, your suggestion of 50cm is too close and gives no escape room for close(punishment) passes or other unexpected events. 50cm is riding across the edges of water drain covers, way too close to the curb. Riding close the curb encourages drivers to try to squeeze through more. Drivers will generally pass a cyclist in a safer way if a dangerous pass puts their own life in danger. This is what the riding the OP describes promotes.

20mph is a good speed to travel on a bike. The faster you are the safer you are.

In the above example, it is an idiot driver who is rushing to get to the back of the next queue. They made no time up. What was the point?


You can argue that every point I made is wrong and you are entitled to your opinion but I rode a bike for many many years and wouldn't dream of riding that far out from the curb for the very reason the driver there got impatient...I would add that as most roads are extremely busy nowadays,I wouldn't recommend anyone going cycling anymore. I certainly would not allow my kids on one now. Most roads were not built to handle the amount and width of modern vehicles anyway. There are idiot drivers and there are idiot cyclists and so its a mute point! I don't actually see that many cyclists now I come to mention it.

I would also suggest that 20mph is too fast but that's just my opinion and if you went slower you could indeed see any obstacles in the way..The answer of course is specially made cycle tracks alongside the roads but they need a fair bit of room and they have to think about pedestrians too...

I had one cyclist kick at my car door because he thought I had got too close to him. Some are indeed a law unto themselves! It why I suggest they too have insurance.

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Re: Please engage brain Mr Range Rover

#100644

Postby midnightcatprowl » December 1st, 2017, 8:29 pm

As a driver I positively prefer the 'assertive' sort of cyclist because you can see where they are and you tend not to be left guessing about what they are about to do.

In contrast cyclists who hug the kerb, though I understand why many do, put drivers in a more difficult position. You wonder all the time if that cyclist may suddenly swerve out because of debris in that area near to the kerb. Also a proportion of cyclist kerb huggers feature largely in the 'I can text while I cycle' gang of which there are some of all ages - sigh!

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Re: Please engage brain Mr Range Rover

#100913

Postby UncleEbenezer » December 2nd, 2017, 7:18 pm

moorfield wrote:
beeswax wrote:Maybe its another topic but shouldn't cyclists have insurance nowadays?


Well it's a logical step on. Many cyclists may already and indirectly have some personal injury cover via home, work, health schemes etc. I imagine virtually none will have any 3rd party cover (edit: again, indirectly, they may have some legal expenses cover).

On the contrary, I'd expect it to be most cyclists who *do* have third-party insurance.

It comes under the heading of "personal liability" in my household contents insurance, and probably yours.

beeswax wrote:You can argue that every point I made is wrong and you are entitled to your opinion

It's an opinion shared by HM Government, and by cycling instructors around the country. The canonical reference is a booklet called "Cyclecraft" published by HMSO and described as the Highway Code for Cyclists. Though actually it describes the primary cycling position as more like 1.5 metres (5 ft) from the kerb.

To the OP, the whole incident sounds perfectly normal for UK roads. The vast majority of road users behave sensibly and responsibly, but it's always the exceptions that you notice. Doubly so if their behaviour conforms to an existing prejudice.

p.s. 20mph sounds on the slow side for a college-age lad on the flat.

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Re: Please engage brain Mr Range Rover

#100918

Postby redsturgeon » December 2nd, 2017, 7:34 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
p.s. 20mph sounds on the slow side for a college-age lad on the flat.


LOL, that's just an estimate, I just know I can't keep up with the young whippersnapper!

I made the mistake of getting him a Cannondale CAA9 road bike !

John

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Re: Please engage brain Mr Range Rover

#100929

Postby colin » December 2nd, 2017, 8:20 pm

I had one cyclist kick at my car door because he thought I had got too close to him.

Outrageous behavior! just how close were you?

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Re: Please engage brain Mr Range Rover

#100950

Postby jfgw » December 2nd, 2017, 11:12 pm

colin wrote:
I had one cyclist kick at my car door because he thought I had got too close to him.

Outrageous behavior! just how close were you?


Unless he had extra-long legs, I suggest that it was far too close!

Julian F. G. W.

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Re: Please engage brain Mr Range Rover

#100971

Postby nmdhqbc » December 3rd, 2017, 7:58 am

1.5m - I just got a tape measure out and that is outrageous!! You're almost on the other side of the road if you take that advise. And someone mentioned 0.5m as being on a grid - Look at a tape measure please. Grids are not nearly that wide.

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Re: Please engage brain Mr Range Rover

#101017

Postby Ashfordian » December 3rd, 2017, 12:21 pm

nmdhqbc wrote:1.5m - I just got a tape measure out and that is outrageous!! You're almost on the other side of the road if you take that advise. And someone mentioned 0.5m as being on a grid - Look at a tape measure please. Grids are not nearly that wide.


Itis quite obvious that you do not ride a bicycle.

Go out for 2 weeks and try it. You'll quickly realise 1.5m is not outrageous and following that advice will greatly improve your safety

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Re: Please engage brain Mr Range Rover

#101041

Postby nmdhqbc » December 3rd, 2017, 1:26 pm

Ashfordian wrote:
nmdhqbc wrote:1.5m - I just got a tape measure out and that is outrageous!! You're almost on the other side of the road if you take that advise. And someone mentioned 0.5m as being on a grid - Look at a tape measure please. Grids are not nearly that wide.


Itis quite obvious that you do not ride a bicycle.

Go out for 2 weeks and try it. You'll quickly realise 1.5m is not outrageous and following that advice will greatly improve your safety


I ride pretty much every day. Just got back from a little ride to the shop in fact. Riding in the middle of the road like that would feel like I'm peacocking. Telling the world I'm more important and better than everyone else so they can all queue up behind me. Have you really a proper grasp of 1.5 metres? My Caravan is 2.2 metres wide for perspective. You're planting yourself in the perfect spot to infuriate and delay every other road user.

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Re: Please engage brain Mr Range Rover

#101048

Postby swill453 » December 3rd, 2017, 1:43 pm

nmdhqbc wrote:I ride pretty much every day. Just got back from a little ride to the shop in fact. Riding in the middle of the road like that would feel like I'm peacocking. Telling the world I'm more important and better than everyone else so they can all queue up behind me. Have you really a proper grasp of 1.5 metres? My Caravan is 2.2 metres wide for perspective. You're planting yourself in the perfect spot to infuriate and delay every other road user.

That's where it's important to know when to use the primary position and when to move to the secondary https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/cycletraining/article/ct20110110-cycletraining-Bitesize-Bikeability--Part-4--On-Road-Positioning-0

Scott.

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Re: Please engage brain Mr Range Rover

#101049

Postby nmdhqbc » December 3rd, 2017, 1:52 pm

swill453 wrote:That's where it's important to know when to use the primary position and when to move to the secondary


That's making a bit more sense in context. If people followed the 1.5 m rules without this added there's be gridlock country wide. Even more i guess.

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Re: Please engage brain Mr Range Rover

#101065

Postby Ashfordian » December 3rd, 2017, 3:09 pm

nmdhqbc wrote:
Ashfordian wrote:
nmdhqbc wrote:1.5m - I just got a tape measure out and that is outrageous!! You're almost on the other side of the road if you take that advise. And someone mentioned 0.5m as being on a grid - Look at a tape measure please. Grids are not nearly that wide.


Itis quite obvious that you do not ride a bicycle.

Go out for 2 weeks and try it. You'll quickly realise 1.5m is not outrageous and following that advice will greatly improve your safety


I ride pretty much every day. Just got back from a little ride to the shop in fact. Riding in the middle of the road like that would feel like I'm peacocking. Telling the world I'm more important and better than everyone else so they can all queue up behind me. Have you really a proper grasp of 1.5 metres? My Caravan is 2.2 metres wide for perspective. You're planting yourself in the perfect spot to infuriate and delay every other road user.


When cycling road positioning is the thing biggest thing a cyclist controls for their safety on a bike.

Let's take your example of 1.5m being the middle of the road(lane). In this example, the lane is 3m wide, which is rare. Whether you ride 0.5m from the edge of the lane or 1.5m, there is no safe overtaking without the overtaking vehicle having to cross into the other lane. However riding 0.5m from the edge will mean many more risky overtakes thus endangering the cyclist. This is basic road craft for cyclists.

My riding position does not say I'm more important or better. This is a flawed mindset. It says my journey/life is no less important that yours(notice the difference) and that as a cyclist my safety is not subservient to motor vehicle traffic. I have no issue with being passed, WHEN it is safe to do so.

Cyclists rarely delay other road users, as the vehicles will generally arrive at some other delay point (junction/roundabout/lights) behind other vehicles. I have driven instead of cycled the last 7 days and at no point has a cyclist delayed me to the point where I have not reached the next delay point and not had at least 1 vehicle in front of me.

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Re: Please engage brain Mr Range Rover

#101069

Postby nmdhqbc » December 3rd, 2017, 3:20 pm

Ashfordian wrote:When cycling road positioning is the thing biggest thing a cyclist controls for their safety on a bike.

Let's take your example of 1.5m being the middle of the road(lane). In this example, the lane is 3m wide, which is rare. Whether you ride 0.5m from the edge of the lane or 1.5m, there is no safe overtaking without the overtaking vehicle having to cross into the other lane. However riding 0.5m from the edge will mean many more risky overtakes thus endangering the cyclist. This is basic road craft for cyclists.

My riding position does not say I'm more important or better. This is a flawed mindset. It says my journey/life is no less important that yours(notice the difference) and that as a cyclist my safety is not subservient to motor vehicle traffic. I have no issue with being passed, WHEN it is safe to do so.

Cyclists rarely delay other road users, as the vehicles will generally arrive at some other delay point (junction/roundabout/lights) behind other vehicles. I have driven instead of cycled the last 7 days and at no point has a cyclist delayed me to the point where I have not reached the next delay point and not had at least 1 vehicle in front of me.


OK, so it seems the point is in fact to actually prevent overtaking. I just shake my head in bewilderment. I feel very safe when cars overtake me. Just like I feel very in control when I overtake in my car. This logic is I control what others do on the road no matter how much it hinders them. Exactly as I said previously. The secondary position makes more sense but it seems that does not come into your thinking. You control the road to others detriment.

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Re: Please engage brain Mr Range Rover

#101074

Postby didds » December 3rd, 2017, 3:53 pm

moorfield wrote:[Experienced cyclists should also be aware of traffic behind them - particularly those Sunday ones - and know their lane position can/does wind drivers up and be able to adjust accordingly.



As the OP said the cyclist was travelling at 20 mph in morning commuting traffic in a 20 mph zone. What exactly should said cyclist be more aware of to be more considerate of following traffic. They can't travel faster (legally) than he is already... So what is there to get wound up about in this situation?

didds


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