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UK Spaceport

Scientific discovery and discussion
XFool
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UK Spaceport

#152728

Postby XFool » July 16th, 2018, 6:29 pm

"Lift-off for Scotland: Sutherland to host first UK spaceport"

BBC News

One thing I've not heard mentioned, having a space launch site so far from the equator must be a disadvantage, surely?


Just heard on R4 it is considered a good place to launch from because: "This far North is good for a polar orbit."

ReformedCharacter
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Re: UK Spaceport

#152734

Postby ReformedCharacter » July 16th, 2018, 6:51 pm

XFool wrote:"Lift-off for Scotland: Sutherland to host first UK spaceport"

BBC News

One thing I've not heard mentioned, having a space launch site so far from the equator must be a disadvantage, surely?


Just heard on R4 it is considered a good place to launch from because: "This far North is good for a polar orbit."


Not such a disadvantage for a polar orbit; only an 'in-plane' orbit will make maximum use of the earth's spin when launching from the equator. If the orbit is polar then a launch from the equator would require the vehicle to make significant change to the vehicle's orbital plane. Generally, changes of plane take more energy than raising or lowering altitude.

RC

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Re: UK Spaceport

#152790

Postby Dod101 » July 17th, 2018, 6:43 am

I know nothing about this sort of thing but apparently a whole lot of satellites are manufactured in Glasgow or nearby and currently they are launched from India or somewhere. It is being billed as a great idea. In many ways I do not think it is, but it is on environmental grounds not the technology because although I am not by any means sympathetic to Green Peace it seems like another nail in the coffin for peace and quiet in the Scottish Highlands.

Bland comments from ap8889 without any back up means I am unconvinced by his comments but I would be interested to know more because I would imagine that whoever is promoting this must have taken account of his comments (or at least not his comments but the factors behind them :D )

Dod

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Re: UK Spaceport

#152792

Postby dspp » July 17th, 2018, 7:04 am

Dod,
This pork. Pure and simple. It will be eaten many different ways, but it is still pork.
regards,
dspp

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Re: UK Spaceport

#152800

Postby Dod101 » July 17th, 2018, 7:36 am

I thought we were talking about a satellite launcher not an abattoir. In any case although there are plenty of sheep in Sutherland I am not sure about pigs.

Dod

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Re: UK Spaceport

#152833

Postby ReformedCharacter » July 17th, 2018, 9:59 am

I'm not an expert on the satellite business but I'm not sure if the development of 'Spaceports' in the UK is necessarily 'Pork'. The business that these facilities will provide won't be to launch the relatively large satellites that Spacex launches. Spacex does launch small satellites but only as additional freight when they have a suitable launch for a larger satellite to which the smaller satellites can be profitably added.

The growth market for launches is with smaller satellites that are relatively cheap to build and not designed or required to last long. Nowadays we have a whole host of smaller satellites eg. Minisatellite (100–500 kg) Microsatellite (10–100 kg) Nanosatellite (1–10 kg) Picosatellite (0.1–1 kg) Femtosatellite (0.01–0.1 kg). The market for these devices is growing (tick). This is the sort of market that the well-known beardist Richard Branson is targeting with his laughing gas and plastic fuelled 'rocket'. Although he is hoping to send people into space (just) too :)

The UK also has a strong aerospace industry (tick). On the face of it, it seems to me to be a good thing to assist and encourage the satellite business in the UK. Other countries certainly seem to be trying the same thing.

RC

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Re: UK Spaceport

#152844

Postby Dod101 » July 17th, 2018, 10:32 am

What RC has said is more or less how this was explained on our local TV channel last evening. The satellites involved are apparently not much bigger than a football but packed full of electronics. I have no knowledge of any of this but feel that the bland comments by ap8889 do not so much need to be challenged as explained and I am genuinely interested in an explanation.

I also have no idea what is meant by pork, except in the sense I referred to. I must be very out of date.

Dod

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Re: UK Spaceport

#152847

Postby ReformedCharacter » July 17th, 2018, 10:38 am

Dod101 wrote:I also have no idea what is meant by pork, except in the sense I referred to. I must be very out of date.
Dod


Pork barrel is a metaphor for the appropriation of government spending for localized projects secured solely or primarily to bring money to a representative's district. The usage originated in American English. In election campaigns, the term is used in derogatory fashion to attack opponents. However, scholars use it as a technical term regarding legislative control of local appropriations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pork_barrel

RC

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Re: UK Spaceport

#152855

Postby Urbandreamer » July 17th, 2018, 11:07 am

If anyone is interested in details of the industry (with a US view) then can I recommend this.
https://www.npr.org/sections/money/2017 ... s-to-space

Of particular interest might be Rocket Lab. They believe that the fact that they can launch more frequently than others is a USP.
The rights to launch rockets needs to be negotiated with a government body and New Zealand is very surportive. It is possible that our government could also be surportive to companies here.

Having a surportive government and stable environment is VERY important. There use to be a company that launched from a ship in international waters. It uses Ukrainian designed and manufactured motors so it has been dormant for a little while, though I understand that they intend starting again.
http://www.russianspaceweb.com/sea-launch-2018.html

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Re: UK Spaceport

#152971

Postby Slarti » July 17th, 2018, 5:46 pm

ReformedCharacter wrote:
Dod101 wrote:I also have no idea what is meant by pork, except in the sense I referred to. I must be very out of date.
Dod


Pork barrel is a metaphor for the appropriation of government spending for localized projects secured solely or primarily to bring money to a representative's district. The usage originated in American English. In election campaigns, the term is used in derogatory fashion to attack opponents. However, scholars use it as a technical term regarding legislative control of local appropriations.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pork_barrel

RC


A very American reference.


My only thought is what if Scotland does decide to leave the UK after it is built?

Slarti

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Re: UK Spaceport

#153016

Postby Dod101 » July 17th, 2018, 7:55 pm

I am not entirely ignorant. Of course I had heard of pork barrel politics although not for a very long time and the reference was to 'pork'. Hence my confusion.

It is a pity that ap8889 has not responded. Making statements such as he has with no back up or explanation is not very helpful.

To try to answer his questions, the customers are apparently those manufacturers of satellites based in Glasgow(I learn something new every day) who currently send satellites abroad for launch. The benefit over the existing option is obviously a reduction in cost and general hassle.

Dod

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Re: UK Spaceport

#153048

Postby dspp » July 17th, 2018, 10:21 pm

Dod101 wrote:I am not entirely ignorant. Of course I had heard of pork barrel politics although not for a very long time and the reference was to 'pork'. Hence my confusion.

It is a pity that ap8889 has not responded. Making statements such as he has with no back up or explanation is not very helpful.

To try to answer his questions, the customers are apparently those manufacturers of satellites based in Glasgow(I learn something new every day) who currently send satellites abroad for launch. The benefit over the existing option is obviously a reduction in cost and general hassle.

Dod


Dod,

It is pork. In the normally accepted sense.

When colleagues at SSTL want to send a micro/mini sat up they would quite like to do it in EU but there isn't one, so they go to French Guiana or Florida, or Baikonur or wherever. Those are places set up with local pork, but to an external are commercial. So now a Glasgow lot don;t like trekking to Florida, so get UK Gov to bung them a wodge in Sutherland.

Ditto the launcher people. The Brit launcher peoples could never get chicken and egg together of site and launcher. Now someone will gift them a launcher site * and they can make it happen. That's a wodge.

* Except that the launcher site will never happen. Some studies will be done bu a politician's friends cousin, using taxpayer money, then fizzle.

If you want to get a cubesat into space, then you take the odd corners in the fairings of the big stuff, or you take the oldest SpaceX on its last trip. You don't go to Scotland.

It is pork.

regards,
dspp

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Re: UK Spaceport

#153071

Postby Dod101 » July 18th, 2018, 6:56 am

Very interesting, thanks. I am just an interested bystander with very mixed feelings about the whole thing. I wonder how it will play out.

Dod


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