Thwaites Glacier misinformation

[Sorcery]

I just find it odd that vulcanism didn't get a mention.

I find it odd that the OP thinks something so insignificant required a mention. What about the sun warming the glacier, the article didn't mention that. Perhaps the BBC doesn't want people to realise the sun warms the earth?


GS

Have I ever said vulcanism was insignificant? If you think it is, perhaps you could explain? Not insignificant in Iceland or Greenland (if there were volcanoes there, not seen reports of them) or Antarctica. The BBC article from the OP mentioned warm water undercutting the glacier without mentioning the likely cause/source of the warm water.

Not sure the sun has a great deal of effect in Antarctica, it is almost permanently cold, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_of_Antarctica
The mean annual temperature of the interior is −57 °C (−70.6 °F). The coast is warmer; on the coast Antarctic average temperatures are around −10 °C (14.0 °F) (in the warmest parts of Antarctica) and in the elevated inland they average about −55 °C (−67.0 °F) in Vostok.[12][13] Monthly means at McMurdo Station range from −26 °C (−14.8 °F) in August to −3 °C (26.6 °F) in January.[14] At the South Pole, the highest temperature ever recorded was −12.3 °C (9.9 °F) on 25 December 2011.[15] Along the Antarctic Peninsula, temperatures as high as 15 °C (59 °F) have been recorded,[clarification needed] though the summer temperature is below 0 °C (32 °F) most of the time. Severe low temperatures vary with latitude, elevation, and distance from the ocean. East Antarctica is colder than West Antarctica because of its higher elevation.[citation needed] The Antarctic Peninsula has the most moderate climate. Higher temperatures occur in January along the coast and average slightly below freezing.


Threats to the ice sheet seem to be warmish water.

Have I done something to upset you GS? If I have it's unintentional.

[XFool]

The BBC have done an extensive article on a research team's efforts to find out more about loss of ice from the Thwaites glacier here :
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-51097309

Pay particular attention to the section titled "How Thwaites glacier is melting".

So far so good you might be thinking. Must do our bit to save the planet. Yet here is another article about vulcanism beneath the Antarctic ice :
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... antarctica

For Thwaites glacier in particular :
https://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=295861

I have to admit I am totally and utterly fed up with the BBC acting as gatekeeper on science.

OK. So what exactly is your beef here? Let's look at your links in more detail:

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-51097309

Antarctica melting: Climate change and the journey to the 'doomsday glacier'

"Glaciologists have described Thwaites as the "most important" glacier in the world, the "riskiest" glacier, even the "doomsday" glacier.

But understanding what is happening here is essential for scientists to be able to predict future sea level rise accurately.

What appears to be happening is that deep warm ocean water is flowing to the coast and down to the ice front, melting the glacier.

As the glacier retreats back, yet more ice is exposed."

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/aug/12/scientists-discover-91-volcanos-antarctica

This article is more than 2 years old

Scientists discover 91 volcanoes below Antarctic ice sheet

This is in addition to 47 already known about and eruption would melt more ice in region affected by climate change

"The discovery is particularly important because the activity of these volcanoes could have crucial implications for the rest of the planet. If one erupts, it could further destabilise some of the region’s ice sheets, which have already been affected by global warming.

https://www.nsf.gov/news/news_summ.jsp?cntn_id=295861

Previously unsuspected volcanic activity confirmed under West Antarctic Ice Sheet at Pine Island Glacier

June 27, 2018

"The scientific consensus is that the rapidly melting Pine Island Glacier, the focal point of the study, would be a significant source of global sea level rise should the melting there continue or accelerate. Glaciers such as Pine Island act as plugs that regulate the speed at which the ice sheet flows into the sea."

"Tracing a chemical signature of helium in seawater, an international team of scientists funded by the National Science Foundation (NSF) and the United Kingdom's (U.K.) Natural Environment Research Council (NERC) has discovered a previously unknown volcanic hotspot beneath the massive West Antarctic Ice Sheet (WAIS).

Researchers say the newly discovered heat source could contribute in ways yet unknown to the potential collapse of the ice sheet."


West Antarctic Ice Sheet

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Antarctic_Ice_Sheet

"The Western Antarctic Ice Sheet (WAIS) is the segment of the continental ice sheet that covers West (or Lesser) Antarctica, the portion of Antarctica on the side of the Transantarctic Mountains which lies in the Western Hemisphere."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Antarctic_Ice_Sheet#Ice_mass_loss
"Indications that the West Antarctic Ice Sheet is losing mass at an increasing rate come from the Amundsen Sea sector, and three glaciers in particular: the Pine Island, Thwaites and Smith Glaciers"

All the above leaves me more than a little dissatisfied with your conspiracist sounding terminology: "...with the BBC acting as gatekeeper on science."

Personally, I'd much prefer the BBC as "gatekeeper on science" than other people and organisations I could name.

[Sorcery]

XFool,

Is your only question So what exactly is your beef here? ?
That's a lot of links to re-read.
Just want to prepare myself dreamwise for the beef tomorrow

Have fun, RS3 wise.

[colin]

I just find it odd that vulcanism didn't get a mention.

I find it odd that the OP thinks something so insignificant required a mention. What about the sun warming the glacier, the article didn't mention that. Perhaps the BBC doesn't want people to realise the sun warms the earth?


GS

How did you come to decide that a volcano under the glacier was too insignificant to mention? That's a ridiculous idea. Recent reports on the galcier shown on BBC tv news did not mention vulcanism. Most people including my self would simply jump to the conclussion that global warming is the cause.
Sorcery is quite right to be concerned, those of you who defend the Beeb in their reporting of this are defending missinformation which would cause most people who have not researched the subject ( and that means most people) to jump to an eroneous conclussion.

[GoSeigen]

How did you come to decide that a volcano under the glacier was too insignificant to mention? That's a ridiculous idea.

Actually I asked first (https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=282077#p282077):

What does this mean? Please explain (in scientific terms preferably, given the board topic).

Let's have the pro-volcano facts first. Just how big do you imagine this glacier to be and how big is the volcano (in sqm preferably), and during what percentage of its life is the volcano active?



GS
P.S. I know my own conception of the scale of these things, having seen both a volcano and a glacier with my own eyes, but wonder what evidence the conspiracy theorists can offer.

[Sorcery]

How did you come to decide that a volcano under the glacier was too insignificant to mention? That's a ridiculous idea.

Actually I asked first (https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=282077#p282077):

What does this mean? Please explain (in scientific terms preferably, given the board topic).

Let's have the pro-volcano facts first. Just how big do you imagine this glacier to be and how big is the volcano (in sqm preferably), and during what percentage of its life is the volcano active?



GS
P.S. I know my own conception of the scale of these things, having seen both a volcano and a glacier with my own eyes, but wonder what evidence the conspiracy theorists can offer.

Since I am not a conspiracy theorist, perhaps I shouldn't answer. I am happy to be known as a BBC critic however.
We know what happens to volcanoes under ice from Iceland where huge glacial floods occur, https://guidetoiceland.is/nature-info/t ... ic-history

Perhaps you should reread the article from the Guardian in the OP, here it is again https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/ ... antarctica
Quite a few in and around the Thwaites glacier and it's only a selection of the new ones discovered.

I really don't understand what you are trying to do here GS.

Thank you Colin for understanding and appreciating my intent.

[GoSeigen]

Breaking News!

The Daily Wail is also in on this conspiracy -- a whole article about Thwaites Glacier and nary a word about the huge volcano erupting underneath it:


https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech ... otage.html

LOL -- BBC and DM in cahoots, who'd have thought?



GS

[Lanark]

The thing about criticising the BBC that many seem to miss is that very large parts of it - the production of most TV programmes has ALREADY been privatised and that could arguably be the problem.

How the head office funding works, by subscription or by TV licence is almost irrelevant.

FWIW I'm not really convinced that re-nationalising the BBC production companies would make any difference to the quality of output, but people suggesting we need to 'privatise the BBC to improve it' have not been paying attention for the last 30 odd years.

This is very similar to the way that the NHS is being slowly taken apart and sold off to the lowest bidder:
https://www.theguardian.com/society/201 ... h-somerset

[GoSeigen]

Since I am not a conspiracy theorist, perhaps I shouldn't answer. I am happy to be known as a BBC critic however.

To hide the kind of information the OP claims the BBC are hiding (or closing off to the world!) would require a pretty huge conspiracy, one which is already unravelling since someone has leaked information about the volcanoes on the BBC's own site!

So actually, based on the content of the OP I do consider this to be a conspiracy theory.


I come to this board to read about Science, not about someone's anti-BBC hobby horses -- quite apart from the fact that I consider that BBC, in spite of its right-wing biases, to be a wonderful source of science education, news and entertainment. So hoping the OP might stick to following the Kardashians and Jenners and leave science to people who get it!

Volcanoes are of negligible influence to the planet, yes exciting when you get really close to one of the handful of erupting ones but irrelevant on >99.99% of earth's surface.


GS

[UncleEbenezer]

Volcanos have been there a long time. Hot water from them is part of the long-term-stable ecosystem. One of the counterintuitive things I saw in Iceland was water that gets cold in warm weather and vice versa, because in cold weather the volcano keeps the water warm whereas when it's a bit warmer the hot water is a drop in the ocean of glacial melt - so overall the water gets very cold. It was cold but far from freezing water when I went under Iceland's (and Europe's) biggest glacier, whose subsequent eruption tells us something of what happens when a volcano breaks through ice.

In the event of a really big eruption, the main effect won't be heat from the volcano - a short-term blip whose total heat is small compared to a fractional warming of the ocean or to the sheer volume of ice - but rather the volcanic ash. If a wide area of snow and ice is turned black by it, the sunlight captured will cause melt until and unless it washes itself clean. That's a long-term-stable state in Iceland - where the glaciers are relatively small and the volcanos active.

Volcanoes are of negligible influence to the planet, yes exciting when you get really close to one of the handful of erupting ones but irrelevant on >99.99% of earth's surface.

The big eruptions can have substantial global effect.

The key difference between those and man-made pollution is that a volcano's effect is short-term. The processes of nature clean it up, usually in a few months, sometimes (the once-in-a-century mega-eruption) it may take several years.

Man's effect is, by contrast, cumulative. Until we wipe ourselves (and much else) out.

[Sorcery]

Since I am not a conspiracy theorist, perhaps I shouldn't answer. I am happy to be known as a BBC critic however.

To hide the kind of information the OP claims the BBC are hiding (or closing off to the world!) would require a pretty huge conspiracy, one which is already unravelling since someone has leaked information about the volcanoes on the BBC's own site!

So actually, based on the content of the OP I do consider this to be a conspiracy theory.


I come to this board to read about Science, not about someone's anti-BBC hobby horses -- quite apart from the fact that I consider that BBC, in spite of its right-wing biases, to be a wonderful source of science education, news and entertainment. So hoping the OP might stick to following the Kardashians and Jenners and leave science to people who get it!

Volcanoes are of negligible influence to the planet, yes exciting when you get really close to one of the handful of erupting ones but irrelevant on >99.99% of earth's surface.


GS

GS,

You must be thinking of someone else. The most conspiratorial I have been is when I said that my guess was that vulcanism doesn't fit the BBC's agenda so omitted it from the article.

As to your claim that this affects only 0.01% of the earth's surface, this quote is from the guardian link in the OP :
“We were amazed,” Bingham said. “We had not expected to find anything like that number. We have almost trebled the number of volcanoes known to exist in west Antarctica. We also suspect there are even more on the bed of the sea that lies under the Ross ice shelf, so that I think it is very likely this region will turn out to be the densest region of volcanoes in the world, greater even than east Africa, where mounts Nyiragongo, Kilimanjaro, Longonot and all the other active volcanoes are concentrated.”

There is something unusual going on in the Thwaites glacier, this graphic from the BBC https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-51097309
shows ice loss in height shaded red where there is greatest ice loss. The main deep red areas are in and around the Thwaites glacier. There is hardly any red on the rest of the continent.

I wish the research team well and hope they find the source of the "warm" water and are equipped to detect vulcanism if it's present.

[XFool]

Since I am not a conspiracy theorist, perhaps I shouldn't answer. I am happy to be known as a BBC critic however.

To hide the kind of information the OP claims the BBC are hiding (or closing off to the world!) would require a pretty huge conspiracy, one which is already unravelling since someone has leaked information about the volcanoes on the BBC's own site!

Yeah. The BBC article is about what it's about. That it isn't about what it isn't about is not "BBC Bias".

So actually, based on the content of the OP I do consider this to be a conspiracy theory.

Sounded that way. What it undoubtedly is is the all too usual and predictable politically motivated attack on the BBC. Seen it all before...

I come to this board to read about Science, not about someone's anti-BBC hobby horses

Me to. This is the TLF "Science" thread. Take your politics elsewhere, please!

[Sorcery]

Since I am not a conspiracy theorist, perhaps I shouldn't answer. I am happy to be known as a BBC critic however.

To hide the kind of information the OP claims the BBC are hiding (or closing off to the world!) would require a pretty huge conspiracy, one which is already unravelling since someone has leaked information about the volcanoes on the BBC's own site!

Yeah. The BBC article is about what it's about. That it isn't about what it isn't about is not "BBC Bias".

So actually, based on the content of the OP I do consider this to be a conspiracy theory.

Sounded that way. What it undoubtedly is is the all too usual and predictable politically motivated attack on the BBC. Seen it all before...

I come to this board to read about Science, not about someone's anti-BBC hobby horses

Me to. This is the TLF "Science" thread. Take your politics elsewhere, please!

I have given enough links and quotes about science in this thread to convince a reasonable third party observer that I am focused on the science, in particular that localised vulcanism is a possible explanation of what's happening. The only contributions I hear from you XFool and Goseigen are personal attacks lacking any science. Perhaps you could practice what you preach.

[XFool]

Anyway. More from err... "the BBC's agenda":

World's biggest iceberg makes a run for it

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-51389690

The world's biggest iceberg is about to enter the open ocean.

"'No role' for climate in Halley iceberg"....

Antarctic: 'No role' for climate in Halley iceberg splitting

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-47817510

When a giant iceberg breaks away from near Britain's Halley research base, it won't be because of climate change.

[BellaHubby]

Strikes me that the OP is nothing but an attempt to complain about the BBC, and has little to do with science.

I read the BBC article and it's mainly about the challenges facing the investigation team, rather than in in-depth analysis of the scientific reasons behind the melting of the glacier.

Here's another article which makes no mention of volcanic activity as far as I can see: https://advances.sciencemag.org/content ... MSF0951a18 . Do these scientists also have a hidden agenda? No, like the BBC article, it's more about the characteristics of the sea floor and the undersurface of the glacier.

Do we expect all the scientists and the BBC to simply say "Oh, volcanoes under the glacier, pointless investigating any other reasons for the ice melt"

bh

[servodude]

Strikes me that the OP is nothing but an attempt to complain about the BBC, and has little to do with science.

I read the BBC article and it's mainly about the challenges facing the investigation team, rather than in in-depth analysis of the scientific reasons behind the melting of the glacier.

Here's another article which makes no mention of volcanic activity as far as I can see: https://advances.sciencemag.org/content ... MSF0951a18 . Do these scientists also have a hidden agenda? No, like the BBC article, it's more about the characteristics of the sea floor and the undersurface of the glacier.

Do we expect all the scientists and the BBC to simply say "Oh, volcanoes under the glacier, pointless investigating any other reasons for the ice melt"

bh

That's very well put!
I often feel sorry for the BBC; they can't give equal time to everyone's unicorns.

Unfortunately in their requirement for "balance" it looks like you need to have e.g. a naturopath on a medical panel.

That kind of nonsense validates bogus tosh. It should not be offensive that opinion isn't on a par with fact. If it does offend you, your opinions are likely not well grounded in fact (and you should vaccinate your kids please)

-sd