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Potential danger of repeated mRNA boosters

The home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
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This is the home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
redsturgeon
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Potential danger of repeated mRNA boosters

#593069

Postby redsturgeon » June 4th, 2023, 6:54 am

Some recent data to take into account when deciding whether to have an extra booster shots.

https://www.mdpi.com/2076-393X/11/5/991

emerging evidence suggests that the reported increase in IgG4 levels detected after repeated vaccination with the mRNA vaccines may not be a protective mechanism; rather, it constitutes an immune tolerance mechanism to the spike protein that could promote unopposed SARS-CoV2 infection and replication by suppressing natural antiviral responses. Increased IgG4 synthesis due to repeated mRNA vaccination with high antigen concentrations may also cause autoimmune diseases, and promote cancer growth and autoimmune myocarditis in susceptible individuals.

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Re: Potential danger of repeated mRNA boosters

#593090

Postby Lootman » June 4th, 2023, 8:57 am

Having had 5 jabs to date, all mRNA, I am seriously thinking of having no more, unless something else changes anyway. The risk of Covid appears to be well down the list of current health risks if media coverage (or rather the lack of it) is anything to go by. And I rarely see anyone wearing a face covering these days.

40 months on, can we finally declare this done and dusted now?

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Re: Potential danger of repeated mRNA boosters

#593118

Postby redsturgeon » June 4th, 2023, 11:10 am

Lootman wrote:Having had 5 jabs to date, all mRNA, I am seriously thinking of having no more, unless something else changes anyway. The risk of Covid appears to be well down the list of current health risks if media coverage (or rather the lack of it) is anything to go by. And I rarely see anyone wearing a face covering these days.

40 months on, can we finally declare this done and dusted now?


We need to keep reviewing the situation and responding in the best way possible according to the latest evidence.

Certainly not done and dusted for those with long covid.

John

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Re: Potential danger of repeated mRNA boosters

#593119

Postby Spet0789 » June 4th, 2023, 11:12 am

redsturgeon wrote:
Lootman wrote:Having had 5 jabs to date, all mRNA, I am seriously thinking of having no more, unless something else changes anyway. The risk of Covid appears to be well down the list of current health risks if media coverage (or rather the lack of it) is anything to go by. And I rarely see anyone wearing a face covering these days.

40 months on, can we finally declare this done and dusted now?


We need to keep reviewing the situation and responding in the best way possible according to the latest evidence.

Certainly not done and dusted for those with long covid.

John


While true, the last sentence is not really relevant to the discussion of whether to have further Covid boosters. Treating long Covid is a separate topic.

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Re: Potential danger of repeated mRNA boosters

#593121

Postby Mike4 » June 4th, 2023, 11:20 am

Lootman wrote:Having had 5 jabs to date, all mRNA, I am seriously thinking of having no more, unless something else changes anyway. The risk of Covid appears to be well down the list of current health risks if media coverage (or rather the lack of it) is anything to go by. And I rarely see anyone wearing a face covering these days.

40 months on, can we finally declare this done and dusted now?


This is the result of the government now suppressing public concern about Covid instead of whipping it up.

Someone on the radio was saying there were still 400 deaths from Covid last week so while public concern about it has gone away, the problem itself has not.

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Re: Potential danger of repeated mRNA boosters

#593145

Postby mc2fool » June 4th, 2023, 12:49 pm

Mike4 wrote:
Lootman wrote:Having had 5 jabs to date, all mRNA, I am seriously thinking of having no more, unless something else changes anyway. The risk of Covid appears to be well down the list of current health risks if media coverage (or rather the lack of it) is anything to go by. And I rarely see anyone wearing a face covering these days.

40 months on, can we finally declare this done and dusted now?

This is the result of the government now suppressing public concern about Covid instead of whipping it up.

Someone on the radio was saying there were still 400 deaths from Covid last week so while public concern about it has gone away, the problem itself has not.

In the week ending 19-May-2023 there were 322 deaths involving Covid and 204 due to Covid.

In the same week there were 1,680 deaths involving influenza or pneumonia and 442 due to them.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/datasets/weeklyprovisionalfiguresondeathsregisteredinenglandandwales (Download .xlsx and see worksheet 3.)

So which illness(es) do you think the government is suppressing public concern about? ;)

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Re: Potential danger of repeated mRNA boosters

#593152

Postby Mike4 » June 4th, 2023, 12:59 pm

mc2fool wrote:
Mike4 wrote:This is the result of the government now suppressing public concern about Covid instead of whipping it up.

Someone on the radio was saying there were still 400 deaths from Covid last week so while public concern about it has gone away, the problem itself has not.

In the week ending 19-May-2023 there were 322 deaths involving Covid and 204 due to Covid.

In the same week there were 1,680 deaths involving influenza or pneumonia and 442 due to them.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/datasets/weeklyprovisionalfiguresondeathsregisteredinenglandandwales (Download .xlsx and see worksheet 3.)

So which illness(es) do you think the government is suppressing public concern about? ;)



Well this takes us directly into the debate about what counts as cause of death, I'd have thought.

Covid is never the actual Cause of Death AIUI, it will be things like organ failure with Covid mentioned as contributing to the organ failure.

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Re: Potential danger of repeated mRNA boosters

#593155

Postby GrahamPlatt » June 4th, 2023, 1:04 pm

mc2fool wrote:
In the same week there were 1,680 deaths involving influenza or pneumonia and 442 due to them.



Quite a broad range of causes of pneumonia. Mostly bacterial I’d guess.

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Re: Potential danger of repeated mRNA boosters

#593157

Postby mc2fool » June 4th, 2023, 1:07 pm

Mike4 wrote:
mc2fool wrote:In the week ending 19-May-2023 there were 322 deaths involving Covid and 204 due to Covid.

In the same week there were 1,680 deaths involving influenza or pneumonia and 442 due to them.

https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/datasets/weeklyprovisionalfiguresondeathsregisteredinenglandandwales (Download .xlsx and see worksheet 3.)

So which illness(es) do you think the government is suppressing public concern about? ;)

Well this takes us directly into the debate about what counts as cause of death, I'd have thought.

Covid is never the actual Cause of Death AIUI, it will be things like organ failure with Covid mentioned as contributing to the organ failure.

Bah, you could say the same of lots of things. AIDS being an obvious one, and similarly for a lot of cancers. And then of course ... the bullet wasn't the actual cause of death, it just contributed to organ failure. :D

May be of relevant interest: https://www.rcpjournals.org/content/clinmedicine/20/5/e189

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Re: Potential danger of repeated mRNA boosters

#593231

Postby CliffEdge » June 4th, 2023, 9:07 pm

I don't think I'll have another Covid booster. I seem to remember reading somewhere a while back that they become ineffective after the fourth one but I've no idea where I read it.

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Re: Potential danger of repeated mRNA boosters

#593245

Postby servodude » June 4th, 2023, 10:40 pm

mc2fool wrote:
Mike4 wrote:Well this takes us directly into the debate about what counts as cause of death, I'd have thought.

Covid is never the actual Cause of Death AIUI, it will be things like organ failure with Covid mentioned as contributing to the organ failure.

Bah, you could say the same of lots of things. AIDS being an obvious one, and similarly for a lot of cancers. And then of course ... the bullet wasn't the actual cause of death, it just contributed to organ failure. :D

May be of relevant interest: https://www.rcpjournals.org/content/clinmedicine/20/5/e189


Yeah but pneumonia is to flu as spots are to measles.

So the comparison is a bit apples and stairs; which is before we consider having pneumonia, flu and Covid in the same Venn diagram.

I remember going through the database for causes of death a while ago and there's a strange taxonomy and heirarchy for how some things are recorded. I do seem to recall that if you drill down through the flu headline figures you can remove the non-specific pneumonia (it was via some webpage that allowed you to construct search filters)

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Re: Potential danger of repeated mRNA boosters

#593247

Postby tjh290633 » June 4th, 2023, 11:03 pm

CliffEdge wrote:I don't think I'll have another Covid booster. I seem to remember reading somewhere a while back that they become ineffective after the fourth one but I've no idea where I read it.

The latest ones are different. They are more akin to the annual flu injections, modified to cover recent variants. Somewhere I have the leaflet, but can't lay my hands on it. The card says: "Vaccine VidPrevtyn Beta". This is my sixth injection.

TJH

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Re: Potential danger of repeated mRNA boosters

#593248

Postby mc2fool » June 4th, 2023, 11:19 pm

servodude wrote:
mc2fool wrote:Bah, you could say the same of lots of things. AIDS being an obvious one, and similarly for a lot of cancers. And then of course ... the bullet wasn't the actual cause of death, it just contributed to organ failure. :D

May be of relevant interest: https://www.rcpjournals.org/content/clinmedicine/20/5/e189

Yeah but pneumonia is to flu as spots are to measles.

Errr...are you claiming that pneumonia is a symptom of flu? Methinks you're not a doctor, right....? ;)

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Re: Potential danger of repeated mRNA boosters

#593249

Postby servodude » June 4th, 2023, 11:28 pm

mc2fool wrote:
servodude wrote:Yeah but pneumonia is to flu as spots are to measles.

Errr...are you claiming that pneumonia is a symptom of flu? Methinks you're not a doctor, right....? ;)


not a symptom no

but it's a common dangerous pursuant complication to the flu after the lungs and immune system have been weakened
- but you don't have to have had flu to get it (just as there are other causes of spots other than measles)
- so lumping it in with one infectious disease to compare with another infectious disease seems a bit off

but yeah clunky analogy :) sorry


-sd

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Re: Potential danger of repeated mRNA boosters

#593392

Postby Ashfordian » June 5th, 2023, 4:28 pm

tjh290633 wrote:
CliffEdge wrote:I don't think I'll have another Covid booster. I seem to remember reading somewhere a while back that they become ineffective after the fourth one but I've no idea where I read it.

The latest ones are different. They are more akin to the annual flu injections, modified to cover recent variants. Somewhere I have the leaflet, but can't lay my hands on it. The card says: "Vaccine VidPrevtyn Beta". This is my sixth injection.

TJH


That is not true!

Your latest vaccine contains the spike protein for the Beta variant (that of 2020 vintage) hence the name.

The reason you have been given this latest vaccine from Saniflo is that is it much cheaper than the mRNA vaccines.

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Re: Potential danger of repeated mRNA boosters

#593396

Postby Mike4 » June 5th, 2023, 4:45 pm

Ashfordian wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:The latest ones are different. They are more akin to the annual flu injections, modified to cover recent variants. Somewhere I have the leaflet, but can't lay my hands on it. The card says: "Vaccine VidPrevtyn Beta". This is my sixth injection.

TJH


That is not true!

Your latest vaccine contains the spike protein for the Beta variant (that of 2020 vintage) hence the name.

The reason you have been given this latest vaccine from Saniflo is that is it much cheaper than the mRNA vaccines.



Saniflo have branched out from making toilet macerators into vaccines? Well I never. They don't mention this on their website!

https://www.saniflo.co.uk/

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Re: Potential danger of repeated mRNA boosters

#593446

Postby scotia » June 6th, 2023, 1:05 am

Ashfordian wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:The latest ones are different. They are more akin to the annual flu injections, modified to cover recent variants. Somewhere I have the leaflet, but can't lay my hands on it. The card says: "Vaccine VidPrevtyn Beta". This is my sixth injection.

TJH


That is not true!

Your latest vaccine contains the spike protein for the Beta variant (that of 2020 vintage) hence the name.

The reason you have been given this latest vaccine from Saniflo is that is it much cheaper than the mRNA vaccines.

From the UK Government Site https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... oster-2023
It applies to the Spring 2023 Booster in England
You will be given a booster dose of a vaccine made by Pfizer, Moderna or Sanofi and approved in the UK. These vaccines have been updated since the original vaccines and target different COVID-19 variants. For a very small number of people another vaccine product may be advised by your doctor.

These updated vaccines boost protection well, and give slightly higher levels of antibody against the more recent strains of COVID-19 (Omicron) than the vaccines you would have received previously.

As we cannot predict which variants of COVID-19 will be circulating this spring and summer, the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) has concluded that all of these vaccines can be used and that no one should delay vaccination to receive a different vaccine.

The Sanofi vaccine contains an adjuvant (a chemical used to improve the immune response to the virus). This vaccine will only be offered to older people, who may respond less well to vaccines. The adjuvant in the COVID-19 vaccine is similar to the one used in the flu vaccine which is routinely given to over 65 year olds. The NHS website has more information about vaccine ingredients.

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Re: Potential danger of repeated mRNA boosters

#593505

Postby Ashfordian » June 6th, 2023, 11:25 am

scotia wrote:
Ashfordian wrote:
That is not true!

Your latest vaccine contains the spike protein for the Beta variant (that of 2020 vintage) hence the name.

The reason you have been given this latest vaccine from Saniflo is that is it much cheaper than the mRNA vaccines.

From the UK Government Site https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... oster-2023
It applies to the Spring 2023 Booster in England
You will be given a booster dose of a vaccine made by Pfizer, Moderna or Sanofi and approved in the UK. These vaccines have been updated since the original vaccines and target different COVID-19 variants. For a very small number of people another vaccine product may be advised by your doctor.

These updated vaccines boost protection well, and give slightly higher levels of antibody against the more recent strains of COVID-19 (Omicron) than the vaccines you would have received previously.

As we cannot predict which variants of COVID-19 will be circulating this spring and summer, the Joint Committee on Vaccination and Immunisation (JCVI) has concluded that all of these vaccines can be used and that no one should delay vaccination to receive a different vaccine.

The Sanofi vaccine contains an adjuvant (a chemical used to improve the immune response to the virus). This vaccine will only be offered to older people, who may respond less well to vaccines. The adjuvant in the COVID-19 vaccine is similar to the one used in the flu vaccine which is routinely given to over 65 year olds. The NHS website has more information about vaccine ingredients.


The vaccine referenced was Sanofi VidPrevtyn Beta

If you enter the search "which covid variant for the sanofi vaccine" you get this result:

The Sanofi vaccine, known as VidPrevtyn Beta, is protein-based and instead contains copies of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein from the beta variant. This variant was first detected in South Africa and was classified as a variant of concern in December 2020

What you have quoted from the Government website is misleading. In effect, if you are given the Sanofi VidPrevtyn Beta vaccine, you have been vaccinated against a virus spike protein that no longer exists, and is probably having a more positive effect as a placebo.

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Re: Potential danger of repeated mRNA boosters

#593528

Postby daveh » June 6th, 2023, 12:54 pm

Ashfordian wrote:
scotia wrote:From the UK Government Site https://www.gov.uk/government/publicati ... oster-2023
It applies to the Spring 2023 Booster in England


The vaccine referenced was Sanofi VidPrevtyn Beta

If you enter the search "which covid variant for the sanofi vaccine" you get this result:

The Sanofi vaccine, known as VidPrevtyn Beta, is protein-based and instead contains copies of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein from the beta variant. This variant was first detected in South Africa and was classified as a variant of concern in December 2020

What you have quoted from the Government website is misleading. In effect, if you are given the Sanofi VidPrevtyn Beta vaccine, you have been vaccinated against a virus spike protein that no longer exists, and is probably having a more positive effect as a placebo.


Rubbish, the virus spike protein is relatively strongly conserved so there will be major similarities between spike proteins. The trial with the Sanofi vaccine showed it gave good protection against Omicron variant so it won't be a placebo. There is also evidence that heterologous vaccination (ie being given a variety of different vaccines to covid) produces an improved response to the virus.

If you are really interested in how mutations in the spike protein affect response to vaccines have a read of:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579- ... 73-0#Sec11

a 2021 Nature Microbiology Reviews review article.

or this one:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-022-00841-7

from January this year.

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Re: Potential danger of repeated mRNA boosters

#593590

Postby Ashfordian » June 6th, 2023, 9:08 pm

daveh wrote:
Ashfordian wrote:
The vaccine referenced was Sanofi VidPrevtyn Beta

If you enter the search "which covid variant for the sanofi vaccine" you get this result:

The Sanofi vaccine, known as VidPrevtyn Beta, is protein-based and instead contains copies of the SARS-CoV-2 spike protein from the beta variant. This variant was first detected in South Africa and was classified as a variant of concern in December 2020

What you have quoted from the Government website is misleading. In effect, if you are given the Sanofi VidPrevtyn Beta vaccine, you have been vaccinated against a virus spike protein that no longer exists, and is probably having a more positive effect as a placebo.


Rubbish, the virus spike protein is relatively strongly conserved so there will be major similarities between spike proteins. The trial with the Sanofi vaccine showed it gave good protection against Omicron variant so it won't be a placebo. There is also evidence that heterologous vaccination (ie being given a variety of different vaccines to covid) produces an improved response to the virus.

If you are really interested in how mutations in the spike protein affect response to vaccines have a read of:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579- ... 73-0#Sec11

a 2021 Nature Microbiology Reviews review article.

or this one:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41579-022-00841-7

from January this year.


In your second link it says this:

With more than 15 spike receptor-binding domain (RBD) mutations and a number of antigenic deletions and substitutions in the amino-terminal domain (NTD)43,44, BA.1, BA.2, BA.4 and BA.5 are very poorly neutralized with first-generation vaccines and by pre-Omicron infection-derived antibodies

So a vaccine based on the Beta spike protein is going to be a first-generation vaccine as that generates pre-Omicron antibodies. And this is against virus mutations that are well over 12 months old now, so the current virus will have mutated further.

You can also reference the regular reports/account of "breakthrough" infections, as well as the ever decreasing period of vaccine efficacy(what are we down to 6 weeks now?), which all point to an ineffective vaccine.

I will believe previous infection is the heavy lifting now and the vaccine is mainly a placebo, while you can believe the vaccine works. As long as it means we don't return to the disinformation and nonsense of 2020/21.


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