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Two unrelated possibly silly questions

Genealogy, Local, General
ten0rman
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Two unrelated possibly silly questions

#89149

Postby ten0rman » October 18th, 2017, 6:02 pm

Hi folks,
I've done a small amount of genealogical research, and found some "interesting" things so I'm used to basic research, eg findmypast, ancestry, freebmd, family search etc. I do have two totally unrelated queries, and theories, which I'd like people to comment on.

No.1.
Wife's paternal grandmother had two children out of wedlock in 1913 & 1915. It is thought that the putative grandfather might be someone with the name "Roger Doarunner". In 1930 she married James Doarunner. One of the children was wife's father so we know about him, however, his sister, the second born, was last heard of in 1942 when wife's parents got married. She was a witness to the wedding. Since then, she has disappeared, no record of marriage or death. It is thought she went to London. I've no idea about this, but I assume that during WWII, people were killed in London and no-one was able to identify them. Is this possible?

No.2
In the early 1960's I knew a very attractive young woman with the first name of Jane (not her real name) and that was all I knew. We worked for the same employer, and then in the mid 1960's she disappeared due to a rather large change at work. Recently I attempted to trace her, but was rather stymied by the lack of last name. As it happens, I have a good memory of where I thought she lived, so with the aid of Google Street View I positively identified the property. Now, I had been given, what I now believe to be wrong information about her age, but taking her age as being what I thought it was, I obtained the Electoral Roll records for that address for a year where she should have appeared if a) she was of age, and b) she actually lived there. She didn't. So I tried again two years later and sure enough a Jane did indeed appear. That suggested that she was the same age as myself. I then attempted to find her birth registration. I found her marriage, her two chilldren, and discovered that she and her husband had moved to Germany. From that I found that she had died in Germany. I've looked on all the websites I can think of, and can't find a birth. I've traced her putative mother (same surname) and found that she apparently got married in 1931. But no children shown. It occurs to me that maybe Jane was adopted, in which case is it possible to check any records? Incidently, her birthday was probably 1943, and she was probably a twin as a boy with the same surname appeared on the Electoral Roll at the same time. It's also possible that she was born abroad. Any thoughts other than I'm wasting my time, which I accept I am.

Cheers,

ten0rman

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Re: Two unrelated possibly silly questions

#89188

Postby midnightcatprowl » October 18th, 2017, 9:24 pm

I assume that during WWII, people were killed in London and no-one was able to identify them. Is this possible?


I know nothing about genealogical research but it has got to be true that people were killed during World War 2 in London and elsewhere and no one was able to identify them. I wasn't born until 1950 but my mother served in the ATS in London during World War 2 and I can remember her telling me about a particularly distressing event of which I can only remember the outline rather than the details. Was it that people living or working under a viaduct which was bombed could not be retrieved (or was it a bus which fell into a shell hole or was it an underground station where people were taking shelter?) and in the end when it was decided that no one could still be alive the site was filled in rather than further digging taking place. Some of the missing people would still have been identified of course - e.g. Stan was seen getting on the No.45 bus which came to grief and that sort of thing - but not all of them.

Identification must have been enormously difficult during the Blitz and the V1 and V2 attacks. So many people moving around the country because they were in the forces or assigned to essential war work whether they wanted to be or not. People had to carry identification during World War 2 but blast and fire must have meant that in many cases ID and other identifying features must have been destroyed. Then there would be people carrying fake ID and trying to benefit in one way or another from the war situation - everyone from spies to criminals taking advantage of the wonderful war time blackout and confusion. Then there must have been many people without identification - genuine or forged - deserters fleeing the armed forces, youngsters fleeing from home or from the homes to which they'd been evacuated, spouses fleeing from spouses and so on. It would have been a good time to commit murder as well as simply to disappear if you needed to.

I'm sure that the authorities (police, medical folk, volunteers and so forth) did everything possible to identify victims. Realistically however they lacked many methods which have been created since then by scientific developments, plus such 'experts' were under huge stress, under-staffed, and often staffed by necessity by people who under normal circumstances would have retired long before but who kept working because younger colleagues had gone into the services and such folk were often doing fire watches at night and similar tasks (or waking up when the siren went and going into shelters) as well as their 'regular' jobs/professions.

I can't see how under such circumstances it could be avoided that many deaths must have gone unidentified/unreported.

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Re: Two unrelated possibly silly questions

#89201

Postby GoSeigen » October 18th, 2017, 10:32 pm

ten0rman wrote:Hi folks,
I've done a small amount of genealogical research, and found some "interesting" things so I'm used to basic research, eg findmypast, ancestry, freebmd, family search etc. I do have two totally unrelated queries, and theories, which I'd like people to comment on.

No.1.
Wife's paternal grandmother had two children out of wedlock in 1913 & 1915. It is thought that the putative grandfather might be someone with the name "Roger Doarunner". In 1930 she married James Doarunner. One of the children was wife's father so we know about him, however, his sister, the second born, was last heard of in 1942 when wife's parents got married. She was a witness to the wedding. Since then, she has disappeared, no record of marriage or death. It is thought she went to London. I've no idea about this, but I assume that during WWII, people were killed in London and no-one was able to identify them. Is this possible?

Have you found the sister in the 1939 register at FindMyPast? That's a good starting point. Hopefully that will give you an exact date of birth. Then a thorough investigation of records around her last known address, or even better try to dig out anyone alive who might have known anything about her.

People would have been killed, but it's unlikely she was. If she had stong German links she may have been interred. Emigration is a possibility, with a serviceman perhaps. I have a several individuals in one family missing from the 1939 Register but I know they were alive. Sometimes there are just these mysteries and you have to find inventive angles to attack the problem.

No.2
In the early 1960's I knew a very attractive young woman with the first name of Jane (not her real name) and that was all I knew.
[...]
So I tried again two years later and sure enough a Jane did indeed appear. That suggested that she was the same age as myself. I then attempted to find her birth registration. I found her marriage, her two chilldren, and discovered that she and her husband had moved to Germany. From that I found that she had died in Germany. I've looked on all the websites I can think of, and can't find a birth. I've traced her putative mother (same surname) and found that she apparently got married in 1931. But no children shown. It occurs to me that maybe Jane was adopted, in which case is it possible to check any records? Incidently, her birthday was probably 1943, and she was probably a twin as a boy with the same surname appeared on the Electoral Roll at the same time. It's also possible that she was born abroad. Any thoughts other than I'm wasting my time, which I accept I am.

ten0rman


How do you know you have the right mother, and marriage for mother? 1931 is unlikely unless you find a bevy of children born between then and 1943. Look for an alternative parents' marriage in the few years before 1943. Sounds like her name is uncommon (else you'd have trouble finding the mother). Look for possible parents with her maiden name living near her birth town in the 1939 register.

If you give details we can always try to help...


GS

ten0rman
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Re: Two unrelated possibly silly questions

#89586

Postby ten0rman » October 20th, 2017, 3:54 pm

Goseigon,

1. We have her birth certificate so we do indeed know her DOB. Last seen, according to wife. was at wife's parent's wedding in 1942 in West Yorkshire where she was born etc. Family is very much West Yorkshire (West Riding as it was) orientated, but obviously she could have run off with a serviceman. Equally, she could have come home purely for the wedding. We just don't know. Didn't think about 1939 register! Mea Culpa. I'll have another go, ta.

2. I don't! I don't even know for sure that I've got the girl's correct surname. So, let me expand further. At that time, staff dances were organised twice a year, ending very late so coaches were laid on to take people home. Or, I suppose somewhere a person could sleep until the next day. (Many decades later, I came across a farmer's daughter who lived 15 or so miles from the nearest town, and who used to stay with her grandmother in said town when she had a night out, so it is conceivable that the 1960's girl might have done the same thing.) Any, back to the post dance coach. I remember seeing her get off the coach and enter a particular house. With the aid of Google Street view, I identified that house, right down to the fact that the locks and hinges were in the same place as my memory. I therefore have no doubt about the address. Another pointer was that I remember seeing the girl waiting in the bus queue for that area of the town. I therefore have no doubts about there being a connection of some sort with that address. Now move forward until I obtained the Electoral Record for that house in a particular year and discovered that no "Jane", but a female "Doe" with a different name, and another female with yet another surname, say "Smith". Two years later, Jane appeared on the electoral roll with the same surname as the "Doe". I therefore conclude that they are possibly mother and daughter. I also found that a female with the same forename and initial as the elder "Doe" but with the surname "Smith" married a man with the surname "Doe". All of which points to this married pair being the parents of Jane Doe, and the woman being related to the other female "Smith".
Now, I admit it's all inconclusive, and I haven't been able to tie together the two "Smiths", but one other pointer is that I discovered that Jane had a middle name, "Margaret" (again not her real name), whilst her putative mother had the same or similar name as first name. Now from my own family records, I know that often, the first born of a sex got the same name as the appropriate parent, eg, my paternal grandfather had the name Frederick Vosper as fore names, and his son was given the same two names as well as the same surname, hence there were two people with the exact same name, and this is how we actually found about the goings on in our family. So to get back to the original query, no, I don't know for certain anything about this girl, other than a lot of coincidences. But again, I'll try the '39 register.

One final point. I don't want to gave any identifiable info on this just in case. I do know that "Jane's" husband, possibly brother, and daughter & son are alive and kicking, hence the secrecy. this being very much a personal project of mine.

Many thanks for the ideas.

ten0rman

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Re: Two unrelated possibly silly questions

#89608

Postby Slarti » October 20th, 2017, 5:19 pm

ten0rman wrote:No.1.
Wife's paternal grandmother had two children out of wedlock in 1913 & 1915. It is thought that the putative grandfather might be someone with the name "Roger Doarunner". In 1930 she married James Doarunner. One of the children was wife's father so we know about him, however, his sister, the second born, was last heard of in 1942 when wife's parents got married. She was a witness to the wedding. Since then, she has disappeared, no record of marriage or death. It is thought she went to London. I've no idea about this, but I assume that during WWII, people were killed in London and no-one was able to identify them. Is this possible?


During both world wars munitions workers were killed in explosions so bad that it was impossible to count the bodies, let alone identify them. And in some cases the works were so heavily classified that no word would have come out anyway.

ten0rman wrote:No.2
In the early 1960's I knew a very attractive young woman with the first name of Jane (not her real name) and that was all I knew. We worked for the same employer, and then in the mid 1960's she disappeared due to a rather large change at work. Recently I attempted to trace her, but was rather stymied by the lack of last name. As it happens, I have a good memory of where I thought she lived, so with the aid of Google Street View I positively identified the property. Now, I had been given, what I now believe to be wrong information about her age, but taking her age as being what I thought it was, I obtained the Electoral Roll records for that address for a year where she should have appeared if a) she was of age, and b) she actually lived there. She didn't. So I tried again two years later and sure enough a Jane did indeed appear. That suggested that she was the same age as myself. I then attempted to find her birth registration. I found her marriage, her two chilldren, and discovered that she and her husband had moved to Germany. From that I found that she had died in Germany. I've looked on all the websites I can think of, and can't find a birth. I've traced her putative mother (same surname) and found that she apparently got married in 1931. But no children shown. It occurs to me that maybe Jane was adopted, in which case is it possible to check any records? Incidently, her birthday was probably 1943, and she was probably a twin as a boy with the same surname appeared on the Electoral Roll at the same time. It's also possible that she was born abroad. Any thoughts other than I'm wasting my time, which I accept I am.


I think that I am safe in saying that adoption records were/are sealed to all except the person adopted. But, although there shouldn't have been, there were still casual adoptions, right up to the 1950s, that I am aware of, having helped a friend sort out their family and discovering one.

Slarti

ten0rman
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Re: Two unrelated possibly silly questions

#89634

Postby ten0rman » October 20th, 2017, 6:57 pm

Thanks Slarti,

That more or less conforms what I suspected would be the case in both questions.

Here endeth the quest (more or less), still got 1939 census to look at.

ten0rman

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Re: Two unrelated possibly silly questions

#89685

Postby poundcoin » October 21st, 2017, 12:18 am

Ten0rman
Its a long shot but if you have FMP it's worth typing in the known addresses (in both cases) into the Newspaper Archives section .
(Either the full street number and street name or the surname with street name).
Occasionally I've got lucky and found info that's evaded census or BMDs.

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Re: Two unrelated possibly silly questions

#89708

Postby Dod101 » October 21st, 2017, 11:06 am

GoSeigen wrote:
People would have been killed, but it's unlikely she was. If she had stong German links she may have been interred.


Can't resist this. Even with strong German links it is unlikely she would have been interred (unless she was killed of course) More likely to have been interned.

Dod


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