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Confession is good for the soul?

Religion and Philosophy
Forum rules
we are introducing this on a trial basis and that respect for other's views is important e.g. phrases like "your imaginary friend" or "you will go to hell" are not appropriate
GrandOiseau
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Re: Confession is good for the soul?

#147296

Postby GrandOiseau » June 22nd, 2018, 11:49 am

ReformedCharacter wrote:
GrandOiseau wrote:What form are you perceiving a "Prime Mover" to be?


If I wake up in the morning and find that the back of my car has been smashed in I don't need to know whether it was a yellow van or a black lorry to know that another vehicle has whacked it. Nor will my insurer likely claim it was an act of God :) Cause and effect.

You've avoided the question and come up with a spurious analogy. Can you answer the question directly?

ReformedCharacter wrote:
GrandOiseau wrote:If it exists or existed I have no idea. And hence I can not say what caused the universe to come into existence or indeed (behind my comprehension) that there was no cause at all.


I agree, but having admitted that you don't know, you say that you don't believe in a PM and therefore logically you must believe in the other hypothesis which is that the 'creation' came from nowhere. As I agree with your 'don't know' I'm obviously not going to say that you are wrong but that there is a logical inconsistency in your comment.

It's an absence of belief, not a disbelief. Subtle difference. You have presented two hypothesis and said those are the only two. I have an absence of belief in whether they are only two and which one is correct. Make sense now? If I said I did not believe in something then that could be construed I had look at the evidence and disagreed with the conclusions. But if there is no evidence/explanation then you can construe my disbelief as an absence of belief. I have nothing to decide on. Make sense?

ReformedCharacter wrote:
GrandOiseau wrote:You can not apply logic or explain something you can not comprehend.


But we do use logic as a tool to reason about things when we have incomplete information, Occam's razor for example.

You don't have imcomplete information aka competing answers. You have nothing. You have no information on a PM nor about a "no cause" hypothesise. Even using these terms is false and meaningless. They are made up - words on a page - nothing more.

beeswax
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Re: Confession is good for the soul?

#147318

Postby beeswax » June 22nd, 2018, 12:32 pm

Thing is whether on the balance of probabilities and our own experience of life is whether 'anything' happens without first cause or a prime mover? We know of no event in OUR experience to suggest otherwise.

An absence of belief is fine but I'm not sure it fits in with the above?

I may well be clutching at straws to say that I believe in a first cause or PM as THE Creator/God/entity that set it all in motion and that is probably based on my former belief in a Creator/God but even if I wasn't, I would still argue the first sentence is more 'likely' than a no cause or no PM..That really doesn't make any sense whatever.

The actual evidence needed is that we are here and the universe is real and not imaginary as we can see part of it with our own eyes/telescopes/space probes etc.

Its a great question as what or who created the 'Creator' to fit in with all this and tends to end the discussion and its difficult or even impossible to ever know that answer and so we are left with a 'faith' position that religious people or Deists have. The only alternative is just to accept agnosticism which seems more reasonable than outright zero belief or atheism and think Richard Dawkins has stated both positions. However here's the nub, Atheists claim to KNOW there is NO Creator/God though and so the 'absence of belief' doesn't fit in with being a sceptic or agnostic...a possibility means there is 'some' chance, ie not zero chance. If I understand that correctly and I may not?

I honestly don't know why people are reluctant to acknowledge the Universe was created by someone/something though? Perhaps they don't like the idea there maybe a sort of Putin/NK God watching our every move? ;)

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Re: Confession is good for the soul?

#147344

Postby ReformedCharacter » June 22nd, 2018, 2:09 pm

GrandOiseau wrote:
You've avoided the question and come up with a spurious analogy. Can you answer the question directly?


I don't need to suppose or 'perceive' anything about the form of a Prime Mover in order to ask how the universe came to be.

GrandOiseau wrote: It's an absence of belief, not a disbelief. Subtle difference. You have presented two hypothesis and said those are the only two. I have an absence of belief in whether they are only two and which one is correct. Make sense now? ... I have nothing to decide on. Make sense?

I'm not sure it does but that may just be me. The question of a PM is as I'm sure you know, not new. The belief or absence of belief in a PM are usually presented as mutually exclusive. Maybe I'm just unimaginative but I can't see an alternative You have an absence of belief that this is the case. Would you care to suggest an alternative or show why they are not?

GrandOiseau wrote:You have nothing. You have no information on a PM nor about a "no cause" hypothesise. Even using these terms is false and meaningless. They are made up - words on a page - nothing more.


So you think it is pointless to consider it. You may be right. But you did say:

GrandOiseau wrote:So the question I like to ask is given what we do know today what evidence or understanding do we have a god or gods.


RC

GrandOiseau
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Re: Confession is good for the soul?

#147388

Postby GrandOiseau » June 22nd, 2018, 4:55 pm

beeswax wrote:Thing is whether on the balance of probabilities and our own experience of life is whether 'anything' happens without first cause or a prime mover? We know of no event in OUR experience to suggest otherwise.

That is fine with me. Although you have to acknowledge that our knowledge and experience is limited.

beeswax wrote:An absence of belief is fine but I'm not sure it fits in with the above?

I believe stuff happens. Some stuff I understand precisely, some stuff I've got a vague idea, other stuff I know very little about but I've accepted the explanation of others at a superficial level. Some things I know nothing about cos you can't know everything right. Some stuff even the cleverest people in the world don't know about. We might know the after effect but still not not know what caused it. Some things we can take a guess at, some things we can't even guess at. Or if we do guess it's just a wild stab in the dark and pretty pointless.

beeswax wrote:I may well be clutching at straws to say that I believe in a first cause or PM as THE Creator/God/entity that set it all in motion and that is probably based on my former belief in a Creator/God but even if I wasn't, I would still argue the first sentence is more 'likely' than a no cause or no PM..That really doesn't make any sense whatever.

We know how the universe created Earth. We don't know what created the universe. Use of words like, Prime Mover, Creator, God are not helpful terms IMO. It''s better just say something created the universe. You can add nothing to that sentence if you want. Doesn't really make much odds IMO.

beeswax wrote:The actual evidence needed is that we are here and the universe is real and not imaginary as we can see part of it with our own eyes/telescopes/space probes etc.

That is evidence of what happened after creation not how it was created. We have no evidence/knowledge of the creation.

beeswax wrote:Its a great question as what or who created the 'Creator' to fit in with all this and tends to end the discussion and its difficult or even impossible to ever know that answer and so we are left with a 'faith' position that religious people or Deists have. The only alternative is just to accept agnosticism which seems more reasonable than outright zero belief or atheism and think Richard Dawkins has stated both positions. However here's the nub, Atheists claim to KNOW there is NO Creator/God though and so the 'absence of belief' doesn't fit in with being a sceptic or agnostic...a possibility means there is 'some' chance, ie not zero chance. If I understand that correctly and I may not?

I claim to know that no Creator/God ever described to me doesn't exist as there is no evidence to support them. Which of course is a given seeing as we do not know how the universe was created. If you are claiming that atheists know "something" didn't happen then I think you have it wrong. Atheists believe the universe was created as much as anyone else. We just differ in that have an absence in belief of how it happened. Others have a belief in something specifically but no evidence.

beeswax wrote:I honestly don't know why people are reluctant to acknowledge the Universe was created by someone/something though? Perhaps they don't like the idea there maybe a sort of Putin/NK God watching our every move? ;)

I'm not reluctant to do anything. As above, yes it was created by something. But that is all I would say.

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Re: Confession is good for the soul?

#147391

Postby GrandOiseau » June 22nd, 2018, 5:03 pm

ReformedCharacter wrote:
GrandOiseau wrote:
You've avoided the question and come up with a spurious analogy. Can you answer the question directly?


I don't need to suppose or 'perceive' anything about the form of a Prime Mover in order to ask how the universe came to be.

But you've gone beyond asking the question. You've talked about a "Prime Mover" as a possible answer. But you don't want to discuss what a "Prime Mover" could be. It's just something but maybe nothing.

ReformedCharacter wrote:
GrandOiseau wrote: It's an absence of belief, not a disbelief. Subtle difference. You have presented two hypothesis and said those are the only two. I have an absence of belief in whether they are only two and which one is correct. Make sense now? ... I have nothing to decide on. Make sense?

I'm not sure it does but that may just be me. The question of a PM is as I'm sure you know, not new. The belief or absence of belief in a PM are usually presented as mutually exclusive. Maybe I'm just unimaginative but I can't see an alternative You have an absence of belief that this is the case. Would you care to suggest an alternative or show why they are not?

I'm sorry my explanation doesn't make sense to you. I am not sure I can explain myself any other way.

ReformedCharacter wrote:
GrandOiseau wrote:You have nothing. You have no information on a PM nor about a "no cause" hypothesise. Even using these terms is false and meaningless. They are made up - words on a page - nothing more.


So you think it is pointless to consider it. You may be right. But you did say:

GrandOiseau wrote:So the question I like to ask is given what we do know today what evidence or understanding do we have a god or gods.

It was hypothetical. There is none. The only point of discussion is to bring clarity to peoples understanding.

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Re: Confession is good for the soul?

#147411

Postby beeswax » June 22nd, 2018, 6:53 pm

beeswax wrote:I honestly don't know why people are reluctant to acknowledge the Universe was created by someone/something though? Perhaps they don't like the idea there maybe a sort of Putin/NK God watching our every move? ;)


I'm not reluctant to do anything. As above, yes it was created by something. But that is all I would say.[/quote]

OK, let me put another question and its not intended to be loaded..

Do you think that the 'something' you acknowledge created the Universe, must have had or have some intelligence?

The third follow up question is obvious depending on your answer though?

The problem I have with the universe is there seems so much going on and so much waste. I think someone suggested a new star is born or created every second and one star destroyed in that same period of time..It was also suggested that 99.99% recurring.... of ALL lifeforms have been destroyed since the Earth was created..and humans, homo sapiens are relatively newcomers eg 200K years in all that 7 or 8bn years? That doesn't anywhere near suggest the earth was created for us humans by God as the Church and the bible try and tell us...Another follow up question? Why all the secrecy? ;)

My question to a Creator/God is why all that waste and my second question is there intelligent human types in other solar systems or even ours and will they be going to heaven too? If so it will be mighty crowded unless they are mostly hypocrites too and so maybe the Isle of Wight will be big enough. ;)

Another great question for the Abrahamic religions is where exactly is heaven? In that bygone age of ignorance they all thought it was just above the clouds and God was sitting there on his throne watching us...The bible says Jesus went up to heaven on the day of Pentecost dressed in nothing but a middle eastern dress thingy and yet people going up Mount Everest...well you know? ;) Space suits were 10 a penny back then lol..

I've no doubt those believers will say Jesus was and is God and so nothing is impossible for him..

I want to know that when the women went to the Tomb and found Jesus gone but all his burial clothes still there, what was he wearing when Mary saw him later? She thought he was the Gardener and so I wonder what size wellies he had on and there was no Amazon ordering system back then or was there? Free delivery and free returns if you don't like them....and next day delivery if you join Prime Tomb..But only if you have a registered address like Tomb No3, Mount of Olives, I did type mount of Lovies but maybe the second is more appropriate...

My cynical side is starting to show itself again much to the disgust of all those believers with no sense of humour which is another thing...well apart from this long reply as most of the Christians I knew had no sense of humour at all and so no wonder I didn't fit in!

God must surely have one as 7000m years to create one garden and then some bloke and his wife to go and steal his apples..:)

Vintage cider, 7bn years old...Mmmmm!

GrandOiseau
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Re: Confession is good for the soul?

#147425

Postby GrandOiseau » June 22nd, 2018, 9:11 pm

beeswax wrote:Do you think that the 'something' you acknowledge created the Universe, must have had or have some intelligence?

No.

beeswax wrote:The problem I have with the universe is there seems so much going on and so much waste. I think someone suggested a new star is born or created every second and one star destroyed in that same period of time..It was also suggested that 99.99% recurring.... of ALL lifeforms have been destroyed since the Earth was created..and humans, homo sapiens are relatively newcomers eg 200K years in all that 7 or 8bn years? That doesn't anywhere near suggest the earth was created for us humans by God as the Church and the bible try and tell us...Another follow up question? Why all the secrecy? ;)

Not sure you are looking at this in the right way. Nothing is wasted. It's just reformed. There is no end game, plan, mission. We are a spec of dust on a gnats backside. The vastness that we sit and the timespan that we exist in we can barely imagine. You are trying to equate this massiveness with your everyday life. You/we can't.

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Re: Confession is good for the soul?

#147751

Postby ReformedCharacter » June 24th, 2018, 7:47 pm

jfgw wrote:
How would you define a simulation? If the ultimate nature of our existence is beyond anything that we could ever conceive, how could you classify that as either reality or a simulation?

Julian F. G. W.


In case you are interested:

Many works of science fiction as well as some forecasts by serious technologists and futurologists predict that enormous amounts of computing power will be available in the future. Let us suppose for a moment that these predictions are correct. One thing that later generations might do with their super-powerful computers is run detailed simulations of their forebears or of people like their forebears. Because their computers would be so powerful, they could run a great many such simulations. Suppose that these simulated people are conscious (as they would be if the simulations were sufficiently fine-grained and if a certain quite widely accepted position in the philosophy of mind is correct). Then it could be the case that the vast majority of minds like ours do not belong to the original race but rather to people simulated by the advanced descendants of an original race.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simulatio ... physically

RC

GrandOiseau
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Re: Confession is good for the soul?

#148310

Postby GrandOiseau » June 27th, 2018, 11:50 am

Article that maybe of related interest...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -alkhalili

I'm reading New Scientist Instant Expert series "A Journey Through The Universe" at the moment. Does your nut in a bit!

ReformedCharacter
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Re: Confession is good for the soul?

#148445

Postby ReformedCharacter » June 27th, 2018, 7:04 pm

GrandOiseau wrote:Article that maybe of related interest...

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -alkhalili

I'm reading New Scientist Instant Expert series "A Journey Through The Universe" at the moment. Does your nut in a bit!


Thanks for the link; it's going to be very interesting to see whether or not Enceladus or Europa show signs of life processes and it looks as if we'll have a much better idea within the next decade.

I think I'll have to read "A Journey Through The Universe" it looks good.

I'm currently re-reading 'About Time' by Paul Davies.

https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B00333NCPQ/ ... TF8&btkr=1

That definitely 'does my nut in' :) One thing's for certain, we live in a world that is very strange and different from our everyday impressions.

RC

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Re: Confession is good for the soul?

#152671

Postby ReformedCharacter » July 16th, 2018, 2:15 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:We would need to understand the long-term nature regarding the dark-matter of the universe to eventually begin to explain how big-crunch might occur, as on current thinking the expansion of the universe seems to be accelerating...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess


But how fast? :)

Cosmic mystery deepens with conflicting measurements of Hubble constant

https://astronomynow.com/2018/07/13/cos ... -constant/

RC

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Re: Confession is good for the soul?

#160293

Postby ReformedCharacter » August 17th, 2018, 12:43 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:Gravity being gravity, I'm happy that a cyclical universe explains the whole shebang, and that the big-bang is simply the after-effects of a big-crunch, and so it goes...

If we're not currently able to explain such a process using our presently understood laws of physics, that doesn't diminish what seems to be the only sensible explanation to the 'what came before the big-bang' question.

We would need to understand the long-term nature regarding the dark-matter of the universe to eventually begin to explain how big-crunch might occur, as on current thinking the expansion of the universe seems to be accelerating, and not slowing down, but that doesn't stop me believing that this will eventually turn out to be the explanation to the 'pre-big-bang' question.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

An interesting interview with Roger Penrose 'Why Did Our Universe Begin?', suggesting that we may be able to understand what existed before the Big Bang.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2_6h15UCMg

RC


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