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The Dead Have No Rights

Religion and Philosophy
Forum rules
we are introducing this on a trial basis and that respect for other's views is important e.g. phrases like "your imaginary friend" or "you will go to hell" are not appropriate
taken2often
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The Dead Have No Rights

#398022

Postby taken2often » March 22nd, 2021, 4:55 pm

During April The Scots will have a new law which I think is great. Any organs or parts that can be salvaged on your death can be harvested, unless you have opted out. Two things are missing from this legislation.

1) If you fill out the opt out form there is no warning that in the event that you may require an organ you will be at the back of any queue and only if the organ was going to waste. This may make people think twice, especially adults who may have signed away their children's rights. So should this statement be there or not. I feel that if you use the NHS and you are prepared to accept an organ then you should not opt out. Those with a strong religious view would accept this principal.

2) They have not changed the law with regards to a persons legal rights after death. Family or executor can stop the harvest. It should be treated as a
binding contract. Old and infirm can be persuaded near the end into all sorts, so this should be taken into consideration.

servodude
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Re: The Dead Have No Rights

#398125

Postby servodude » March 22nd, 2021, 11:23 pm

taken2often wrote:Two things are missing from this legislation.


They're missing only in that they are omitted; which is good

It would be wrong to punish patients by denying treatment due to their previous behaviour
- smoking, drinking, riding a motorcycle, eating meat, eating lots of chocolate, taking drugs: if any of them lead you to need medical treatment you should still get treated
- "primum non nocere" is generally considered to include harm through refusing to treat

It would be wrong to be dismiss out of hand the considerations of the bereaved relatives
- the wishes of the dead should be considered within the context of those they leave behind
- as you point out they could have been talked in to anything

so stopping at the requirement to opt out seems the correct thing to do

- sd

Dod101
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Re: The Dead Have No Rights

#398132

Postby Dod101 » March 22nd, 2021, 11:55 pm

Not sure I quite understand either of these comments. As a very unwilling citizen of Scotland I rather object to this assumption of my rights. I have no objection but at the same time why should the State be able to just help itself?

Dod

taken2often
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Re: The Dead Have No Rights

#398135

Postby taken2often » March 23rd, 2021, 12:12 am

The point is there is a lot of wastage in organs. Only small number seem to offer to donate. If you opt out I am not saying you would be denied treatment only that you would be at the very end of the list and it may only be, not to waste the organ.

Some have a automatic resistance to this. So instead of a knee jerk no. The potential effect of opting out may make them take a less selfish view. It is actual people they will be helping and they and theirs may need this help in the future. I know of someone who said no until asked would you accept an organ if you needed it and they said yes. So they changed.

See some people are so arrogant that their superior view should override the wishes of the donor. This proves the point that the dead have no rights. I think the law should be changed.

servodude
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Re: The Dead Have No Rights

#398139

Postby servodude » March 23rd, 2021, 12:45 am

Dod101 wrote:Not sure I quite understand either of these comments. As a very unwilling citizen of Scotland I rather object to this assumption of my rights. I have no objection but at the same time why should the State be able to just help itself?

Dod


The debate on organ donations has been going on for quite a long time

The understanding based on canvassing was that most would not object to donating their organs
- and simultaneously most didn't register their intent that it should be done
- meanwhile folk die who could otherwise be helped

Offering an opt out approach swings the balance a bit

As to why the State makes laws... what else is to stop their hands wandering?

- sd

ursaminortaur
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Re: The Dead Have No Rights

#398301

Postby ursaminortaur » March 23rd, 2021, 1:20 pm

servodude wrote:
Dod101 wrote:Not sure I quite understand either of these comments. As a very unwilling citizen of Scotland I rather object to this assumption of my rights. I have no objection but at the same time why should the State be able to just help itself?

Dod


The debate on organ donations has been going on for quite a long time

The understanding based on canvassing was that most would not object to donating their organs
- and simultaneously most didn't register their intent that it should be done
- meanwhile folk die who could otherwise be helped

Offering an opt out approach swings the balance a bit

As to why the State makes laws... what else is to stop their hands wandering?

- sd


This change had already occurred in England and Wales.

https://www.organdonation.nhs.uk/helping-you-to-decide/about-organ-donation/faq/what-is-the-opt-out-system/

The law around organ donation in England has changed. All adults in England are now considered to have agreed to be an organ donor when they die unless they have recorded a decision not to donate or are in one of the excluded groups.
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The new system came into effect in England on 20 May 2020, after the Organ Donation (Deemed Consent) Bill received Royal Assent on 15 March 2019.


https://www.organdonation.nhs.uk/uk-laws/organ-donation-law-in-wales/

The legislation for Wales is ‘deemed consent’. This means that if you haven’t registered an organ and tissue donation decision (opt in or opt out), you will be considered to have no objection to becoming a donor.
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This legislation was introduced in December 2015.


Northern Ireland still requires you to opt-in to donate your organs. A consultation on possibly changing this ended in February 2021 but I don't believe the results have been published yet.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-55273737

A 10-week consultation on an opt-out system for organ donation has been launched by the health minister.

This would mean that adults automatically become donors, unless they specifically say otherwise.

It would bring Northern Ireland into line with other parts of the UK - the law in England changed to a soft opt-out system earlier this year.

The consultation will run until 19 February 2021.

Lootman
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Re: The Dead Have No Rights

#398304

Postby Lootman » March 23rd, 2021, 1:31 pm

I notice that on US driving licenses, there is an indicator that you have opted to donate your organs. Presumably this enables hospitals to act very quickly in the event that you are involved in a traffic accident and taken to a hospital.

Perhaps too quickly?

Having to opt out rather than opt in always annoys me. Sometimes to the point where I will opt out rather than be defaulted in, even if I otherwise might have opted in.

Not sure my liver would do anyone any favours anyway. :D

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Re: The Dead Have No Rights

#398317

Postby mc2fool » March 23rd, 2021, 2:15 pm

taken2often wrote:The point is there is a lot of wastage in organs. Only small number seem to offer to donate.

I don't think you can really call the majority a "small number".

"Over 50% of the Scottish population have joined the NHS Organ Donor Register"
https://www.gov.scot/policies/death-and-end-of-life/organ-and-tissue-donation-and-transplantation/

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Re: The Dead Have No Rights

#398342

Postby bungeejumper » March 23rd, 2021, 4:08 pm

Well, I still carry a donor card in my wallet. Have done ever since my motorcycling days. It's so old and battered now that I've had to re-sign and date it, and (ahem) update the wife's contact number, which was two changes out of date. Whoops.

The fact that a card isn't strictly necessary any more doesn't make me any less keen to ensure that there'll be no possibility of doubt or delay when the emergency services get to me. Or rather, what used to be me. ;)

BJ

taken2often
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Re: The Dead Have No Rights

#398480

Postby taken2often » March 23rd, 2021, 10:31 pm

Well I am very glad to find out that a large number of Scots have signed up for organ donation. No one is more anti-establishment than me but I have been a donor for 40/50 years. For once this Scottish government is doing something useful. But it is not about them, its the patients who need help.

I understand organ donation has moved on a lot and all sorts can be used. I would think all the conservationists would be very excited at this re-cycling of waste materials.

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Re: The Dead Have No Rights

#401384

Postby stewamax » April 3rd, 2021, 2:49 pm

Firstly, I happy for any part of me to be shared after death.
Secondly, it is intriguing that the ‘unless you tell us otherwise, you are presumed to have opted in’ principle is in open contradiction to the major tightening-up measure enforced by UK’s GDPR data protection rules** rolled out not much earlier which said that if you don’t overtly opt in, you are (in effect) assumed to have opted put. I must read the primary legislation to see what it says about the status of a dead person's information!

* Organ Donation (Deemed Consent) Bill active 2019 [England, Wales, N Ireland]
** Data Protection Act 2018 active 2018

ursaminortaur
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Re: The Dead Have No Rights

#401569

Postby ursaminortaur » April 4th, 2021, 9:53 am

stewamax wrote:Firstly, I happy for any part of me to be shared after death.
Secondly, it is intriguing that the ‘unless you tell us otherwise, you are presumed to have opted in’ principle is in open contradiction to the major tightening-up measure enforced by UK’s GDPR data protection rules** rolled out not much earlier which said that if you don’t overtly opt in, you are (in effect) assumed to have opted put. I must read the primary legislation to see what it says about the status of a dead person's information!

* Organ Donation (Deemed Consent) Bill active 2019 [England, Wales, N Ireland]
** Data Protection Act 2018 active 2018



https://ico.org.uk/for-organisations/guide-to-data-protection/guide-to-the-general-data-protection-regulation-gdpr/key-definitions/what-is-personal-data/#1

Information about a deceased person does not constitute personal data and therefore is not subject to the UK GDPR.

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Re: The Dead Have No Rights

#405491

Postby taken2often » April 19th, 2021, 10:53 pm

The post kind of related to the fact that the government have still left the optiopn open for your wishes to be ignored. Once dead your body blongs to you executor if you have nominated one, other wise the most senior member of your family who has been identified, can assume responsibility other wise the court would have to appoint an administrator On the last option the hospital would have harvested as there would be a short open window.

So it appears that any Tom, Dick or Harry could challenge the hospital, and due to the short window their view would be accepted. So your wishes ignored.


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