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How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

Religion and Philosophy
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we are introducing this on a trial basis and that respect for other's views is important e.g. phrases like "your imaginary friend" or "you will go to hell" are not appropriate
dfrgth
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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#94277

Postby dfrgth » November 9th, 2017, 8:54 am


dfrgth wrote:

Humans were created by God to be body and soul
.

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Jackdaww wrote:

is that a fact ?


Yes, I don't think there is much dispute that we have a spiritual element to us as humans, every society that has ever been discovered indulges in worship and whenever you hear of a death pretty soon some relative or friend will be quoted as saying that so and so is now in heaven or words to that effect. So yes I think it is a fact that we are body and soul.

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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#94326

Postby jackdaww » November 9th, 2017, 10:54 am

dfrgth wrote:

dfrgth wrote:

Humans were created by God to be body and soul
.

=======
Jackdaww wrote:

is that a fact ?


Yes, I don't think there is much dispute that we have a spiritual element to us as humans, every society that has ever been discovered indulges in worship and whenever you hear of a death pretty soon some relative or friend will be quoted as saying that so and so is now in heaven or words to that effect. So yes I think it is a fact that we are body and soul.

======================================
body yes , soul debateable ,

BUT ----

created by GOD ??? what is this god entity ?

dfrgth
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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#94367

Postby dfrgth » November 9th, 2017, 12:14 pm

created by GOD ??? what is this god entity ?


Clariman asked for the Christian understanding of predestination and I attempted to explain that from a Christian perspective, the bible teaches that God created everything in six days and to understand the Christian teaching on predestination you have to start where the bible starts on the subject.

You don't believe the bible teaching, that's fine, but I have had this conversation previously on the old Fool site and I was told that creationism is not falsifiable, therefore doesn't qualify as science and is therefore not eligible to be taught in school science lessons.

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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#94423

Postby beeswax » November 9th, 2017, 2:19 pm

dfrgth wrote:
created by GOD ??? what is this god entity ?


Clariman asked for the Christian understanding of predestination and I attempted to explain that from a Christian perspective, the bible teaches that God created everything in six days and to understand the Christian teaching on predestination you have to start where the bible starts on the subject.

You don't believe the bible teaching, that's fine, but I have had this conversation previously on the old Fool site and I was told that creationism is not falsifiable, therefore doesn't qualify as science and is therefore not eligible to be taught in school science lessons.


But the bible does NOT teach pre destination and IF Christians and others would think for themselves they would know the Universe was not created in 6 days and so when that has been ruled out by everyone apart from some religious people, then who shall we believe and should that be taught in schools? There is a 'biblical' perspective based on the the bible and there is a Christian teaching aspect such as Paul and Jesus and they don't essentially match up and religious scholars and theologians can say,write and think what they want to and so predestination and heaven , hell and human sacrifice, atonement is all man made and not God made...

When Adam and Eve sinned, did God say to them, do this and that and you will be forgiven and can come back into this garden or into heaven? Does it make ANY sense that he waited hundreds of thousands of years before he decided to send Jesus? Unless you believe the universe is 6000 years old dated from the date of Adam and his ancestors? Those flippin Dinosaurs take some explaining as does the Ark and Noah but that's enough for now..

So the 'Christian' perspective is not essentially based on the OT teachings at all and few of the NT teachings as well..In fact to answer Clariman's question in the OP, then the answer is clearly the same as have you stopped beating your wife!

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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#94485

Postby jackdaww » November 9th, 2017, 5:40 pm

dfrgth wrote:
created by GOD ??? what is this god entity ?


Clariman asked for the Christian understanding of predestination and I attempted to explain that from a Christian perspective, the bible teaches that God created everything in six days and to understand the Christian teaching on predestination you have to start where the bible starts on the subject.

You don't believe the bible teaching, that's fine ......


===========================================

You don't believe the bible teaching

why would i "believe" ??

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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#94504

Postby GJHarney » November 9th, 2017, 6:14 pm

beeswax wrote:
But the bible does NOT teach pre destination!



It does actually:

Romans 8:28-30 New International Version (NIV)

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[a] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:3-11New International Version (NIV)

Praise for Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he[a] predestined us for adoption to sonship[b] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he[c] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen,[d] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,

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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#94532

Postby beeswax » November 9th, 2017, 7:25 pm

GJHarney wrote:
beeswax wrote:
But the bible does NOT teach pre destination!



It does actually:

Romans 8:28-30 New International Version (NIV)

28 And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who[a] have been called according to his purpose. 29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters. 30 And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:3-11New International Version (NIV)

Praise for Spiritual Blessings in Christ
3 Praise be to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in the heavenly realms with every spiritual blessing in Christ. 4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he[a] predestined us for adoption to sonship[b] through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. 7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace 8 that he lavished on us. With all wisdom and understanding, 9 he[c] made known to us the mystery of his will according to his good pleasure, which he purposed in Christ, 10 to be put into effect when the times reach their fulfillment—to bring unity to all things in heaven and on earth under Christ.

11 In him we were also chosen,[d] having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will,


Thinking about that more, and putting John 3:16 into the mix, all Paul is doing is 'suggesting' that 'mankind' as a whole can be redeemed as a 'predestined thought' and action from God by the atonement act of Jesus. ie there was no 'choosing' individuals but was a corporate saving grace to us all so to speak which flies into the face of individual predestination teachings of Calvin, where 'some' are chosen at the beginning and some by definition are not at the beginning, meaning no free will which is the point and question of Clariman in the OP. Paul's teaching was in many ways opposite to that of Jesus and why he encountered so many problems with other Christians at the time..

One example was Paul saying Jesus was the 'new covenant' which superseded the law of Moses and Jesus saying not one dot or comma of the law would be overturned until the end of the world etc.. Who was right? I can't get Christians to answer that question other than saying it was just for Christians but there was no Christians at the time, just jews and gentiles and Jesus was a Jew and its oft been said that Christians should be following what Jesus taught and not Paul. Although on another occasion, Paul said there was no difference between Jew and Gentile, male and female etc..

There was one of the 'lost' Gospels that have recently come to light where its said women were to be changed into men before they could get into heaven, such was the feeling that God only chose males and Jesus choosing only male disciples. I still find it amazingly odd for want of a better word...and shows how women were treated as second class that actually existed for 1900 years this side of civilisation anyway. Its amazing what they have achieved in such a short time. Surely God is male AND female but why only male is another topic and why only one son and no daughter? He is neither as he cannot be flesh and blood and so we cannot be made in his image which is more likely to be non human or spiritual. The questions go on and on!

As I said redemption through human sacrifice is pagan and not what God would advocate as it has far too many problems as I posted earlier...

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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#94547

Postby jackdaww » November 9th, 2017, 7:53 pm

this may be a good point to say --

the bible contributors were all men , i think ............

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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#94554

Postby beeswax » November 9th, 2017, 8:07 pm

jackdaww wrote:this may be a good point to say --

the bible contributors were all men , i think ............


Almost...except for the Book of Ruth which was probably written by a man...Its a pretty wonderful story about Ruth and her MIL and finding love...its worth reading with some everlasting prose that is known throughout literature..

The book tells of Ruth's accepting the God of the Israelites as her God and the Israelite people as her own. In Ruth 1:16-17, Ruth tells Naomi, her Israelite mother-in-law, "Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. Where you die I will die, and there I will be buried. May the Lord deal with me, be it ever so severely, if even death separates you and me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Ruth

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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#94557

Postby jackdaww » November 9th, 2017, 8:14 pm

beeswax wrote:
jackdaww wrote:this may be a good point to say --

the bible contributors were all men , i think ............


Almost...except for the Book of Ruth which was probably written by a man...Its a pretty wonderful story about Ruth and her MIL and finding love...its worth reading with some everlasting prose that is known throughout literature..

The book tells of Ruth's accepting the God of the Israelites as her God and the Israelite people as her own. In Ruth 1:16-17, Ruth tells Naomi, her Israelite mother-in-law, "Where you go I will go, and where you stay I will stay. Your people will be my people and your God my God. Where you die I will die, and there I will be buried. May the Lord deal with me, be it ever so severely, if even death separates you and me.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_of_Ruth


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so it was mostly men then ...... ;)


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