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How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

Religion and Philosophy
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How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#89744

Postby Clariman » October 21st, 2017, 1:45 pm

This is a serious question (not prompting an argument) which I would like a simple Christian answer to. I'm doing some study which relates to religion and (as a non-believer) I am struggling to get my head round it.

The basic notion of Christianity, as I understand it, is that one needs to believe in Jesus Christ as Saviour, confess your sins, and you get to Heaven. That in a nutshell is what sets Christianity apart from Judaism etc.

So how does that work with the religious (including Christian) notion of Predestination? If I understand that correctly, it means that God has already decided who will and who won't get to Heaven. So if it has already been decided by God, what difference does it make if you believe in Jesus as saviour?

Thanks
Clariman

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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#89751

Postby jackdaww » October 21st, 2017, 2:07 pm

we may know a bit about jesus as a historical figure , but we know nothing about this GOD entity , that so many invoke as FACT , and nothing either about HEAVEN.

sorry if this doesnt answer the question.

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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#89754

Postby Clariman » October 21st, 2017, 2:15 pm

jackdaww wrote:we may know a bit about jesus as a historical figure , but we know nothing about this GOD entity , that so many invoke as FACT , and nothing either about HEAVEN.

sorry if this doesnt answer the question.

Thanks but that does not attempt to answer my question. Whether God or Heaven is fact or not, is irrelevant to my question. It IS A FACT that Christians believe in God, Heaven, Jesus as Saviour, and have varied beliefs on Predetermination. I am asking Christians, how Predetermination relates to Jesus as Saviour in their belief. I seek to understand this and not to create an argument about it.

Clariman

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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#89787

Postby Lootman » October 21st, 2017, 4:48 pm

Clariman wrote:So how does that work with the religious (including Christian) notion of Predestination? If I understand that correctly, it means that God has already decided who will and who won't get to Heaven. So if it has already been decided by God, what difference does it make if you believe in Jesus as saviour?

The philosopher in me would say "it all depends on what you mean by the word 'predeterminism' ".

If you interpret it as fatalism - the idea that every event is fixed and inevitable, and free will is an illusion, then you are correct. Nobody can or should be held accountable for their actions since they could never have done anything different.

But determinism, as it has often been defined, allows for free will even whilst it asserts that there are influences beyond our control that drive our choices.

By changing the word "determinism" to "predeterminism", I think you change its meaning to be closer to fatalism, and thereby introduce a paradox.

In other words I see the problem as not one with religion or Christianity in particular, but rather a philosophical problem of language and ethics.

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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#89797

Postby beeswax » October 21st, 2017, 5:48 pm

Hi Clariman, are you asking two separate questions ie predestination which is indeed God deciding the future and we have no free will to change that and the other that people have to believe in Jesus to get to heaven? ie Predestination could mean that God decides who gets to heaven....irrespective of their religion or non faith?

As a former Christian, I used to accept many things and believing that Jesus was the ONLY way to get to heaven as there is NT text that supported that when Jesus said he was the way, the truth and the life and that no man comes to the Father accept through him. The other crucial factor in that belief is to accept we are all sinners and Jesus had to die for us so that we could be redeemed and 'saved' by him in order to appease God, based on the original sin of Adam.

Trying to answer your question did not pre occupy me and in my experience rarely to most Christians I knew apart from believing that Jesus was God's son and and was with him at the beginning of Creation. I think it was much much later where this question was addressed by John Calvin..where predestination was part of his preaching. I'm not sure whether that question was addressed by Jesus or anyone else even St Paul? Later I had problems with much of what I used to believe and became a Deist in the process but I had difficulty with your question that IF God knew the future, he must have known that his son would die a horrible painful death and did nothing to change that even if he could? But the NT says Jesus on the Cross spoke the words, translated "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me"! How does that fit in with that question of pre determination? Interestingly Jesus used the word 'God' rather than 'my Father' which should be difficult for Christians to explain then how could Jesus be God or equal to God or even his only Son etc but that is another question?....The NT preachers, including Jesus taught that God was about to end the world and judge all mankind and even Jesus said he would be returning in that generation to take his believers to heaven with Paul saying that would include both the living and those that had died in their faith. It didn't happen but it hasn't stopped Christians from still believing that 2000 years later and counting.
So Jesus could not have believed in Pre destination on that simple basis alone. No Christian has yet made biblical prophecy work even though they claim the opposite.

As Christopher Hitchens used to say that God gave us free will and we can't change that....;)

When each and every question on religious faith is thought about, including this one. There are huge flaws in all these beliefs that most believers cannot or will not answer and it is much easier not to think about them, indeed as I didn't. Oddly I used to believe that once saved, always saved as God does not go back on his promises. We shall see! ;)

ATB,

Mike

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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#89798

Postby Clariman » October 21st, 2017, 6:07 pm

Hi Mike

My question arose in connection with Calvinism and the History of the Presbyterian Church in Scotland. Reading further, the notion of predestination is a key Calvinist belief and different to those of an Armenian approach. No idea where the CoE sits amidst all this.

There appears to be a key contradiction between the idea of predestination and the idea that anyone who believes in Jesus as Saviour gets to heaven. If it was all pre-ordained by a God, then what difference does it make if someone believes in Jesus?

As I said, I am not a believer, but I would like to understand it better from a historical perspective and an understanding of what the Calvanist Churches believe.

C

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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#89802

Postby Dod101 » October 21st, 2017, 6:14 pm

It is not so much that Jesus is regarded as the Saviour, but that he is God incarnate that is the important bit. In other words, as the son of God he was God on earth.

Dod

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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#89810

Postby beeswax » October 21st, 2017, 6:43 pm

Dod101 wrote:It is not so much that Jesus is regarded as the Saviour, but that he is God incarnate that is the important bit. In other words, as the son of God he was God on earth.

Dod


I must say I never understood that bit and even if I did, I could never believe it as there are far too many problems with it..I'm not saying its not a core Christian belief but its something the early Christian Church had too. Read about Arianism and this concept.

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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#89815

Postby beeswax » October 21st, 2017, 6:57 pm

Clariman wrote:Hi Mike

My question arose in connection with Calvinism and the History of the Presbyterian Church in Scotland. Reading further, the notion of predestination is a key Calvinist belief and different to those of an Armenian approach. No idea where the CoE sits amidst all this.

There appears to be a key contradiction between the idea of predestination and the idea that anyone who believes in Jesus as Saviour gets to heaven. If it was all pre-ordained by a God, then what difference does it make if someone believes in Jesus?

As I said, I am not a believer, but I would like to understand it better from a historical perspective and an understanding of what the Calvanist Churches believe.

C


Hi Clariman, thanks for the clarification. I would also need to read further on this and although Calvin was a well known reformist preacher, he was not one I did much research on. I think I started to despise his views when he had another contemporary preacher Michael Servetus (see link below) burned at the stake even though he was a Christian too but believed in something different that Jesus was not God etc. Clearly Calvin forgot the teachings of Jesus and the Ten Commandments.

I belonged to a few non denominational churches like the Railway Mission, the Salvation Army and a couple of Baptist churches and I must have been a bit of a rebel even then as didn't believe that you need to be baptised to get to heaven and so never did, even though its NT teaching by Jesus...None of which taught pre-destination. I'm not familiar with the Armenian Church at and again from memory they they don't accept the Pope and have their own and very much base their teachings on the first manuscripts. I have been to a few CoE Services and didn't like them one bit. Too dreary and dull and were non evangelical if that makes sense, ie more ritualistic. The Salvation Army don't do baptism or the Eucharist/Mass and shows how they are all different. Even though they all claim to use the NT as their teachings.

https://www.gotquestions.org/Calvin-Mic ... rvetus.htm

That link didn't work and so try this one..

https://www.challies.com/articles/the-servetus-problem/

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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#89833

Postby Itsallaguess » October 21st, 2017, 8:22 pm

Clariman wrote:
The basic notion of Christianity, as I understand it, is that one needs to believe in Jesus Christ as Saviour, confess your sins, and you get to Heaven. That in a nutshell is what sets Christianity apart from Judaism etc.

So how does that work with the religious (including Christian) notion of Predestination? If I understand that correctly, it means that God has already decided who will and who won't get to Heaven. So if it has already been decided by God, what difference does it make if you believe in Jesus as saviour?


I'm not a person of faith, but as a thought experiment I really don't see any issue with both positions, in theory....

Start from the other end Clariman -

If you ended up in heaven then you did believe......you did confess your sins.......and that's how you got there.....

If you did or did not get there, that in itself doesn't seem to go against any idea of predeterminism; it's simply either going to happen or it isn't, and if you do, you may have always been going to, and if you don't, then there may have been very little that could have been done about it......

Itsallaguess

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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#89839

Postby beeswax » October 21st, 2017, 8:49 pm

The problem is its all based essentially on thoughts, rather than deeds or how we live our lives.

One day you believe that Jesus died for you and you get into heaven as a result...

Then the next day you don't believe that and you are therefore sent to hell for all eternity?

This has to be complete and utter nonsense and should not be given the time of day. It was St Paul that claimed we are saved that way, ie by faith or essentially thoughts....But then he made a mess of the NT theology the whole time and yet his words make up a whole lot of the NT and the Christian Church preaches him more than they do Jesus and so work that one out.

Jesus at least said to the rich man to give all he had to the poor and to follow him and except for a very few cases that does not happen by those Christians that preach to us daily from their pulpits and among themselves. I think it was the USA that started to say it was really OK for millionaires to be Christians and could go to heaven...I wonder how they read that text in the NT?

Does it make sense that Jews who believe in God/Jehova for centuries before Jesus and still do so will be sent to eternal hell because they haven't accepted Jesus as their Messiah because their very own prophecy has not be fulfilled? People can now believe what they want to but being sent to hell for thoughts cannot be just and a God that would do that is not good and not just and not loving and seems to represent more a North Korean Dictator. How can Christians still peddle this stuff?

Its why I now believe that IF there is a God and a Heaven and a Judgement and we can never know anyway but it makes more sense that good people have nothing to fear and bad people must expect to be punished..and can't complain if they do...But then try and describe what is good and what is bad...as there will be extremes in both cases...

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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#89840

Postby Clariman » October 21st, 2017, 8:53 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:
Start from the other end Clariman -

If you ended up in heaven then you did believe......you did confess your sins.......and that's how you got there.....

If you did or did not get there, that in itself doesn't seem to go against any idea of predeterminism; it's simply either going to happen or it isn't, and if you do, you may have always been going to, and if you don't, then there may have been very little that could have been done about it......

Itsallaguess

I agree that you can explain outcomes either way, but that doesn't mean the notion of predestination isn't logically inconsistent with Jesus as saviour ( in my view).

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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#89846

Postby jackdaww » October 21st, 2017, 9:10 pm

beeswax wrote:The problem is its all based essentially on thoughts, rather than deeds or how we live our lives.


Its why I now believe that IF there is a God and a Heaven and a Judgement .....

...


==================================

why believe that ?

this GOD is man's creation.

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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#89849

Postby beeswax » October 21st, 2017, 9:38 pm

Clariman wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
Start from the other end Clariman -

If you ended up in heaven then you did believe......you did confess your sins.......and that's how you got there.....

If you did or did not get there, that in itself doesn't seem to go against any idea of predeterminism; it's simply either going to happen or it isn't, and if you do, you may have always been going to, and if you don't, then there may have been very little that could have been done about it......

Itsallaguess

I agree that you can explain outcomes either way, but that doesn't mean the notion of predestination isn't logically inconsistent with Jesus as saviour ( in my view).


The problem though is IF there was a plan by God for a predestination or heaven for believers that was only dependent on a belief in Jesus as they have preached for the last 2000 years, then then the obvious question is why did God wait 200,000 years since the emergence of homo sapiens to do that? Or why nothing like that was made clear by God to every single human being in the last X number of years, irrespective of what religion or country they were born in? If Western Civilisation was wholly dependent on the bible and NT for its moral guidance and its laws, then what about the Eastern Civilisation? Where did they get their morality and laws from? China and Egypt seemed to be far more civilised, inventive, intelligent and creative than were the ancient desert tribes of biblical times and yet none of them knew about this all knowing and all seeing monotheistic God of the Jews that had a pre determined plan of heaven and hell for each one of us?

Isn't it more likely that they and us have made their God(s) in their/our own image and have come up with all this theology and predestination theory, what is really scaremongering where children were sacrificed because the harvest failed and was a means of power and control not just of our actions but our very thoughts as well where Jesus said to lust after someone...was as bad as actually committing adultery with them....another thought crime punishment? Not many people know that all muslims are expected to sacrifice an animal each year in order to please their God. That is about 2 billion innocent animals per year and we do nothing to stop this in the name of protecting a religious group? Circumcision is not much different from FGM of young girls for the same reason, yet we condemn one and allow the other?

In many ways we have progressed as a world but in religious terms we haven't and we remain attached and committed to pagan religious text and Gods that IF it was written today, people would be prosecuted for writing it. Homosexuals are still today classed as sinners by these groups and need forgiveness by God. Its time it was all examined and stopped and Jihad is precisely the same sort of thing and not doing so reflects on our lack of will to do so because it would upset so many believers and yet?

The Christian message that unless you believe in Jesus you will go to eternal hellfire gets off scot free? One saving grace is that the Christian Church is on its knees now in the UK at least and intelligent people are not conned like they used to be or indeed scared by such stories..
Last edited by beeswax on October 21st, 2017, 9:45 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#89850

Postby beeswax » October 21st, 2017, 9:41 pm

jackdaww wrote:
beeswax wrote:The problem is its all based essentially on thoughts, rather than deeds or how we live our lives.


Its why I now believe that IF there is a God and a Heaven and a Judgement .....

...


==================================

why believe that ?

this GOD is man's creation.


Sorry, I was answering Clariman's point that a believing in God was not the question...at this point that is...

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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#89857

Postby Clariman » October 21st, 2017, 10:35 pm

Thanks all. We are drifting away from my specific question, which was about how Christians who believe in predestination stack that up against the freewill choice of whether to believe Jesus as saviour.

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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#89858

Postby beeswax » October 21st, 2017, 11:00 pm

Clariman wrote:Thanks all. We are drifting away from my specific question, which was about how Christians who believe in predestination stack that up against the freewill choice of whether to believe Jesus as saviour.


Apologies as I have a tendency to drift....;)

I'm not sure I understand the question in those terms my friend...I may not be the best former Christian to give this a fair crack of the whip because it was never a subject that was discussed and can't recall ever having a sermon on it. I suppose we would need to ask some Calvanists that question? Are there any Churches around now with many believers with that doctrine? Possibly it may affect more Scottish Churches than in England? I don't really know?

So its not Christians per se that would know the answer, just those Calvanist types and I have never met one...And I have to say the same thing about free will too....ie it was never a question that arose that often but again my experience was in non denominational churches. I would guess that Christians thought you were either a believer in Jesus as your Saviour or you didn't and therefore not saved and wouldn't get to heaven. ie a binary non negotiable decision.

Can you say why you came up with something so obscure? I know if I asked some Christian friends of mine, they would frown and give me a blank look....;)

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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#89866

Postby Itsallaguess » October 22nd, 2017, 4:58 am

Clariman wrote:
We are drifting away from my specific question, which was about how Christians who believe in predestination stack that up against the freewill choice of whether to believe Jesus as saviour.


Surely any religious belief that includes predestination as part of that belief-system simply cannot then also include the idea of free-will as part of the same belief-system....

It might well include the belief that one cannot enter the kingdom of heaven without declaring Jesus as your saviour and repenting all sins, but to suggest that's an act of free-will whilst also holding onto the idea of predestination is a situation where the two are simply incompatible...

But then, 'God does do mysterious things'*.....!!!!.....

Itsallaguess

* Other catchy get-out clauses may be available in your belief-system.....

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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#89871

Postby Clariman » October 22nd, 2017, 8:17 am

beeswax wrote:Can you say why you came up with something so obscure?

As I think I said earlier, I am doing some studying. Funnily enough, this question came up in 2 contexts. One area that I am reading about is the history of secularisation, which obviously requires some knowledge of church history and doctrine. The other area of study is the history of Scotland in the 19th Century which also covers religion - esp Presbyterianism. The question of predestination was mentioned in both sets of sources, so I thought I would try to understand it!

Predestination was part of Calvin's thinking - which had a huge influence on the Church in Britain - more especially Scotland. Calvin's theories were refined/argued about by Dutch theologian Arminius (b 1560) - he did not believe in Predestination. So the debate about the 2 forms of belief are categorised as Calvinism v Arminianism.

Anyway, it turns out that modern day Christians are still arguing about what it means and whether either Calvin or Aminius were right. See here ...
https://www.christianforums.com/threads ... m.7657874/
beeswax wrote:I know if I asked some Christian friends of mine, they would frown and give me a blank look....;)

Agreed. Many friends of mine are Christians (including some Presbyterians) and I don't think they would know what I was talking about either.

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Re: How does believing in Jesus to get to heaven, map to Predestination?

#89887

Postby beeswax » October 22nd, 2017, 10:53 am

Clariman wrote:
beeswax wrote:Can you say why you came up with something so obscure?

As I think I said earlier, I am doing some studying. Funnily enough, this question came up in 2 contexts. One area that I am reading about is the history of secularisation, which obviously requires some knowledge of church history and doctrine. The other area of study is the history of Scotland in the 19th Century which also covers religion - esp Presbyterianism. The question of predestination was mentioned in both sets of sources, so I thought I would try to understand it!

Predestination was part of Calvin's thinking - which had a huge influence on the Church in Britain - more especially Scotland. Calvin's theories were refined/argued about by Dutch theologian Arminius (b 1560) - he did not believe in Predestination. So the debate about the 2 forms of belief are categorised as Calvinism v Arminianism.

Anyway, it turns out that modern day Christians are still arguing about what it means and whether either Calvin or Aminius were right. See here ...
https://www.christianforums.com/threads ... m.7657874/
beeswax wrote:I know if I asked some Christian friends of mine, they would frown and give me a blank look....;)

Agreed. Many friends of mine are Christians (including some Presbyterians) and I don't think they would know what I was talking about either.


Thanks Clariman for that explanation, it makes more sense to me know by reading a bit more and that link you gave. Its good to do such things to broaden our minds and these are what my old christian church haunts would call deep theological questions and occasionally we would get a speaker or Pastor that would do that and apart from one or two deep thinkers in the congregation, they didn't go down well and with me neither at the time as all we wanted to hear was a simple Christian message or story they could relate to by practical examples. Like the parables that Jesus used. Interestingly it was he that spoke with stories to demonstrate/preach his philosophy because his disciples being simple men just couldn't understand any deeper theological concepts. The parable of the Good Samaritan is a really great example where most people in the world would understand it and possibly we can underestimate how radical that was at the time from someone whom historians think had no formal education. But then he was the Son of God....;) .

This is where most of the teachings of Jesus went wrong imo when the Church and its leaders got involved with their detailed forensic examination of theological concepts that gave them all a platform of we know better than you and so do as we tell you and don't think for yourself type of thing. Trillions of words and thousands of theological colleges have passed us by that have essentially missed the whole point of Jesus's teachings in my humble opinion and when I listened to many Archbishops of Canterbury over the years, could not understand a word they said as it was couched in the same theological destruction almost of the english language that most people would understand at least. It made them all look and sound super duper clever though...;) The Nicene/Apostles Creed fits into that very nicely too and again developed in the same manner. St Paul and the early Church Fathers were just like those Archbishops. Its why the Railway Mission I used to go to and indeed the Salvation Army gave us real every day stories we could remember and to take away with us. I think when Jesus said that he was the way, the truth and the life, that is exactly what he meant, be kind, be good and love each other. What other way could there ever be for mankind to live by that is so simple, so profound and so understandable....I am at heart still a Christian when I think of such teachings that he gave to us..

ATB

Mike

Sorry drifting again!


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