Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to OLTB,Cornytiv34,Blatter,eyeball08,ADrunkenMarcus, for Donating to support the site

'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'

Religion and Philosophy
Forum rules
we are introducing this on a trial basis and that respect for other's views is important e.g. phrases like "your imaginary friend" or "you will go to hell" are not appropriate
Leothebear
Lemon Slice
Posts: 434
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 1:18 pm
Has thanked: 48 times
Been thanked: 154 times

'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'

#277490

Postby Leothebear » January 14th, 2020, 10:25 pm

Moderator Message:
RS: This topic has been moved from the Snug to the more appropriate "Meaning of Life" board.



I wonder how regular church attendees feel after seeing the BBC2 programme 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'.

I have my own opinions about organised religion and though not surprised by the programme's findings, it confirmed my worst suspicions.
The conclusion I come to is that the CoE is every bit as guilty as the RC church in the manner they have behaved over many years. In both cases it goes right to the top. The protection and support of offenders in face of overwhelming evidence of guilt.

So do we have any regular Church goers here? If so, what are your thoughts?

jackdaww
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1191
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:53 am
Has thanked: 1260 times
Been thanked: 188 times

Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'

#277519

Postby jackdaww » January 15th, 2020, 8:11 am

not a churchgoer at all - except to view the buildings.

shocking cover ups and absence of care for victims - more exploitation of vunerables.

bishop carey and "prince" charles dont come out of this at all well.

:x

tjh290633
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4020
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:20 am
Has thanked: 274 times
Been thanked: 1413 times

Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'

#277561

Postby tjh290633 » January 15th, 2020, 10:25 am

The church has a long history of turning a blind eye. Back in the 1940s our vicar had a live in boy friend. Nobody was bothered and of course the law was different back then.

Protection of minors is the area where the church has fallen down. Secrecy and unwillingness to complain or report unacceptable behaviour has been a major factor. Those who read the News of the World in those days will have been well aware of prosecutions of choirmasters, cub and scout leaders, etc. for their various peccadillos.

There seems to have been a reluctance to do the same for men of the cloth. Quite why is probably lost in the mists of time, but I suspect that word of mouth was used to ensure opportunities were kept to a minimum.

Sympathy with those of the pederast persuasion may be a factor.

The increasing numbers of women in the clergy can only have a good effect.

TJH

Snorvey
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3057
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 12:51 pm
Has thanked: 1161 times
Been thanked: 1287 times

Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'

#277602

Postby Snorvey » January 15th, 2020, 12:49 pm

Religion has been a blight on human history.

There's been so much death, torture and abuse carried out in the name of some mythical deity and yet.....and yet the media still turn to prominent figures in religion when they look for the moral standpoint on an issue.

vrdiver
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2086
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 2:22 am
Has thanked: 353 times
Been thanked: 652 times

Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'

#277626

Postby vrdiver » January 15th, 2020, 2:15 pm

Snorvey wrote:Religion has been a blight on human history.

There's been so much death, torture and abuse carried out in the name of some mythical deity and yet.....and yet the media still turn to prominent figures in religion when they look for the moral standpoint on an issue.

I totally agree with the first sentiment, yet within various churches are to be found men and women who actually do care about their fellow humans (and the planet in general) and within their ranks people who have spent a great deal of time studying and thinking about morality and ethics.

As an athiest myself, I try to separate the concept of god from the actions of those who believe. Bad, scheming manipulative people have often used the church to further their own ends or to cling to power (and its trappings) whilst hiding from justice. Yet there have been many within those same churches who have provided comfort, help and hope to those in need.

Overall, I think the world would be better without the bad people. Getting rid of the churches would just leave them to crawl under another stone of convenience, such is human nature. In an ideal world the churches would preach humanism and be done with the concept of god, buth that's a bonus I'm unlikely to witness, assuming I'm wrong about reincarnation. ;)

VRD

scrumpyjack
Lemon Slice
Posts: 785
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:15 am
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 251 times

Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'

#277633

Postby scrumpyjack » January 15th, 2020, 2:50 pm

Yes there are undoubtedly a high proportion of excellent people in the churches with deep moral values but the problem is once you have a creed based on faith – I’m right and everyone who believes differently is going to hell / God is on my side / the unbelievers must be exterminated etc etc you give a cover to the extremists – hence regimes like that in Iran or in many instances in Christian history.

So on balance looking at human history, I have to agree with Snorvey that religion has overall been a very malign influence. Obviously that is not going to stop bad people doing awful things but its absence is one less excuse.

didds
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2281
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 12:04 pm
Has thanked: 962 times
Been thanked: 346 times

Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'

#277635

Postby didds » January 15th, 2020, 3:06 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:... hence regimes like that in Iran or in many instances in Christian history. ...


.. and contemporary christians of course...

didds

Snorvey
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 3057
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 12:51 pm
Has thanked: 1161 times
Been thanked: 1287 times

Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'

#277636

Postby Snorvey » January 15th, 2020, 3:11 pm

Getting rid of the churches would just leave them to crawl under another stone of convenience, such is human nature. In an ideal world the churches would preach humanism and be done with the concept of god, buth that's a bonus I'm unlikely to witness, assuming I'm wrong about reincarnation.

Possibly. But hiding under the stone of religion gave them a huge position of trust - and thus easy access to fulfil their darkest tendencies. And still religion tries to stifle the issue as far as it can. I mean, to the church 'defrocking a priest' was a sufficient punishment for a child abuser until the polis came along and said, 'aye, right. Fancy get up or not, you're going to jail sunshine'.

But the past is the past and many of these creeps are with, or close to the God they supposedly believe in. Hopefully, as their exposure to temptation will continue to be gradually destroyed and the worst we will see in the future will be the COE crucifying Wonga at the altar whilst being invested in it at the same time <head in hands>

Yet still the media go to the church for a moral opinion on something immoral. Why? There opinion means little to an ever declining number of us. I'd rather they asked someone like Jose Mouinho for his opinion. It would still hold the same value to me (i.e. f-all), but at least he's not hiding behind fancy frocks and questionable beliefs.

fca2019
Lemon Pip
Posts: 71
Joined: July 18th, 2019, 8:37 am
Has thanked: 20 times
Been thanked: 16 times

Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'

#277640

Postby fca2019 » January 15th, 2020, 3:23 pm

I used to be a regular church goer. It is something which any sane person should question why you would continue to attend such an organisation, and question why a loving God would allow or sanction evil behaviour by people who are supposed to represent it.

I do think the CoE does do a lot of good for local communities and there are well meaning people in it, so would be sad to see it disappear completely. Same goes I think for other religions/belief systems.

However given the history of abuse it should be very strictly regulated. I suspect controls are now in place but that they are still no strong enough.

stevensfo
Lemon Slice
Posts: 771
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 8:43 am
Has thanked: 367 times
Been thanked: 177 times

Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'

#277649

Postby stevensfo » January 15th, 2020, 3:55 pm

tjh290633 wrote:The church has a long history of turning a blind eye. Back in the 1940s our vicar had a live in boy friend. Nobody was bothered and of course the law was different back then.

Protection of minors is the area where the church has fallen down. Secrecy and unwillingness to complain or report unacceptable behaviour has been a major factor. Those who read the News of the World in those days will have been well aware of prosecutions of choirmasters, cub and scout leaders, etc. for their various peccadillos.

There seems to have been a reluctance to do the same for men of the cloth. Quite why is probably lost in the mists of time, but I suspect that word of mouth was used to ensure opportunities were kept to a minimum.

Sympathy with those of the pederast persuasion may be a factor.

The increasing numbers of women in the clergy can only have a good effect.

TJH


Re, choirmasters etc, I remember many cases where teachers were charged with offences, but they often got away with it due to their 'in loci parentis' status and the fact that courts in those days made no allowances for cross-examining children in court. Consequently, a good lawyer could completely destroy a child on the witness stand, making a prosecution very difficult. Teachers were usually very intelligent, and providing no actual penetration took place, they got away with almost everything. The stories I heard about the private school near us were disgusting, but the abuse never went quite far enough for a successful prosecution - at least in those days.

Similarly, I was told well over 30 years ago that child abuse was rampant in Childrens Homes and Orphanages, and the employees had to sign some sort of contract to remain silent or risk losing their pension. I have no idea how much truth there is in this, but it's always seemed strange to me that these places used to exist all over the place (I was told that even our village had a small orphanage till the 1970s) yet I never hear much about the abuse.

Steve

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 5280
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 65 times
Been thanked: 268 times

Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'

#277651

Postby BobbyD » January 15th, 2020, 4:06 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:Yes there are undoubtedly a high proportion of excellent people in the churches with deep moral values but the problem is once you have a creed based on faith – I’m right and everyone who believes differently is going to hell / God is on my side / the unbelievers must be exterminated etc etc you give a cover to the extremists – hence regimes like that in Iran or in many instances in Christian history.

So on balance looking at human history, I have to agree with Snorvey that religion has overall been a very malign influence. Obviously that is not going to stop bad people doing awful things but its absence is one less excuse.


It is often said that if God didn't exist man would have to invent him. Well anybody with the briefest knowledge of the last 4000 years knows that he has, many times over, unless you can reconcile the myriad mono and polytheistic belief systems which have emerged around the globe in to a single coherent Pantheon. Religion hasn't been an influence on human development, it doesn't exist outside humanity, it is the expression of a number of the fundamental aspects of human psychology.

It should come as a surprise to no one that power structures attract people who wish to wield power, and whilst you can use almost any difference you like to differentiate us and them nothing gives you quite the latitude that a handwritten note from the Creator of the Universe gives you. Kings are a somewhat distant second, and anyway they are generally appointed by the Creator so something of a letter from the Almighty's secretary.

Then you are down to more problematic baseis for your right to whatever you like, such as nationality, race... none of which lead to prettier conflicts than religion, but if religion hadn't been such a convenient and culturally acceptable way to express your desire to capture your neighbour's town, sleep with his wife and eat his cattle over the history of mankind there wouldn't have been fewer wars, there would have been different pretexts.

scrumpyjack
Lemon Slice
Posts: 785
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 10:15 am
Has thanked: 28 times
Been thanked: 251 times

Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'

#277664

Postby scrumpyjack » January 15th, 2020, 4:34 pm

BobbyD wrote:Then you are down to more problematic baseis for your right to whatever you like, such as nationality, race... none of which lead to prettier conflicts than religion, but if religion hadn't been such a convenient and culturally acceptable way to express your desire to capture your neighbour's town, sleep with his wife and eat his cattle over the history of mankind there wouldn't have been fewer wars, there would have been different pretexts.


Well we'll never know whether that's true or not, but I don't think one can assume it would be so. What religion does is to remove reason and logic from any argument because by definition it is not based on them.

BobbyD
Lemon Half
Posts: 5280
Joined: January 22nd, 2017, 2:29 pm
Has thanked: 65 times
Been thanked: 268 times

Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'

#277669

Postby BobbyD » January 15th, 2020, 5:12 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:
BobbyD wrote:Then you are down to more problematic baseis for your right to whatever you like, such as nationality, race... none of which lead to prettier conflicts than religion, but if religion hadn't been such a convenient and culturally acceptable way to express your desire to capture your neighbour's town, sleep with his wife and eat his cattle over the history of mankind there wouldn't have been fewer wars, there would have been different pretexts.


Well we'll never know whether that's true or not, but I don't think one can assume it would be so. What religion does is to remove reason and logic from any argument because by definition it is not based on them.


Religion doesn't do anything, anymore than a hoe or an AK47 does.

The doing is all done by humans.

Religion doesn't cause suffering, humans do.

Sometimes they utilise religion as a means of inflicting that suffering.

Religion doesn't have an existence independent of humanity. It isn't an external factor exerting a malign influence. It is a human construct wielded by humans. The cause of the unpleasantness, is humans.

vrdiver
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2086
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 2:22 am
Has thanked: 353 times
Been thanked: 652 times

Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'

#277681

Postby vrdiver » January 15th, 2020, 5:52 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:What religion does is to remove reason and logic from any argument because by definition it is not based on them.

In the same way that membership of a gang, supporting a football club, or even choosing a position on Brexit does (for some people).

Humans are social animals. We have evolved exploiting the advantages of working in a group, whilst at the same time retaining our inate selfishness, which allows exploitation of that very same group should conditions allow.

Look at kids in the school playground - they form gangs, have "cool" kids and "outcasts", bullies and heroes. Very few will cite a religious excuse for their actions. It's only later that some people realise that the a religious veil is yet another means to exploit and control.

Leothebear
Lemon Slice
Posts: 434
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 1:18 pm
Has thanked: 48 times
Been thanked: 154 times

Re: 'Exposed the Church's Darkest Secret'

#278051

Postby Leothebear » January 17th, 2020, 10:24 am

Religion can also be plane daft - like the outrage generated by apparently not wearing a scarf. Is this really 2020?

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/15/worl ... chess.html


Return to “The Meaning of Life”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest