Should Islam, Christianity and Judaism unite?

[bulltraderpt]

As a non-believer, I find it sad that many members of the world's religions view each other with fear, suspicion or hatred. This is particularly true of Islam, Christianity and Judaism - yet these 3 major world religions are all Abrahamic and, in essence, believe in the same God (Jehovah, Allah). They came out of the same belief system, so why do they not celebrate their shared heritage and shared belief?

I don't want to minimise the role of Christ to Christians, nor Mohammed to Muslims, but the underlying God is the same - is He not?

Wouldn't it be a great thing for the world if the leaders of these various religions (not to mention all their sects) actually came together?

If they did, maybe human nature is such that they would find someone else to be suspicious of and persecute

Thoughts?

And you really think that is going to happen sometime soon?

How about the major powers got together to eradicate belief systems which do nothing to actually advance mankind, how much better would that be for civilisation as a whole.

[beeswax]

It maybe the area they live in the middle east and I'm not been there but the buildings and homes look like third world standard and so why do they spend all that time arguing and fighting and killing each other over something they were never around to know whether it was true or not and not use their time building and renewing themselves into a brighter more enlightened future. Look what the USA have done in 200 years and even what most Western Countries have done even with religious differences...

I may get the wrong impression about this but all they seem to want to do is sit around, moan and pray and fight each other to the death. How can this change? TBH I'm not sure it can as its gone on far too long. I would think there needs to be a reduction in religious belief like there is here and some leaders in these countries that get rid of the worst kind of abuse and adopt equal rights for men and women and start BUILDING something they can all be proud of. Israel has cast off most of its religious past and text and so it can be done. Even though they need to move much further in recognising that Palestinians have as much right to live as EQUAL citizens as they do and have freedom of movement too and not try and claim religious ownership based on biblical text which is where most of all the problems lie..

A huge bonfire would be nice!

[quelquod]

I suppose they're just trying to live up to the prophecy of 1 lot being wild asses or whatever?

More seriously I've never met a Muslim or Jew who wouldn't worship God alongside me. The differences in Christian sects seem to be dominated by disagreement over which biblical edicts are to accord with secular custom of the day and which are absolute. I'm pretty unknowledgeable about Islam or Judaism but in their own ways their sects do seem intent on magnifying trivia. It's true though that it's hard to reconcile the adoption of Christ, Mohammed or neither.

[GJHarney]

My view on this would be that you would need to work from the other direction to find the reason why this is not possible, that is from people up to religious texts and a shared view of a monotheist deity, rather than from the top down.

So put Abrahamic religion to one side of a moment and instead examine the rather shorter history of the Marxist Communist movement. Even though a multitude of political groups, parties and sects over the years have all professed the same adherence to identical texts written by Marx and Engels, the splits between them have been huge, and even within broader categories of Marxism (Trotskyism, Stalinism, Maoism etc.) you will find further splits still (hence the phrase '57 varieties' of Trotskyism before you even then distinguish them from their Stalinist nemesis).

And while I understand that what are largely atheist political movements cannot be identical to theological-based religious ones there are still remarkable similarities, not least when during the time of the USSR after Lenin's death and in China under Mao communism took on many of the same roles in terms of faith in the sacred texts, assumed belief from populations and leaders with similar powerful positions and organisational control to that of a Pope or a Caliph.

And this in turn is relevant to this discussion because those opposing Marx-derived political groups are no more able to unite with each other despite sharing the same quotations and philosophy as the different Abrahamic faiths and the large number of sub-divisions within them and for exactly the same basic reasons. Organised religion reflects and comes out of society, hence the lasting split between the western and eastern Christian churches was primarily based on the split in the political and cultural development of the Late Roman Empire rather than with the theology differences that then followed. Likewise, the theological differences between Protestantism and Catholicism, and in particular the notion of a direct relationship with God rather than one mediated through the Church and the Pope/Priests was itself based on the development of towns and finance capital in the middle ages that in turn led to the creation of an individualist middle class with different (capitalist) interests and ideology towards society than the feudal relationships that they were breaking from, so in other words a new theology for the Church based on reinterpreting the same sacred texts (the Bible) was based on changes within society and then played a role in furthering those changes - the Protestant 'work ethic' for example and the opposition to the large number of saints days (days off work essentially) that was essential to the developing capitalist mode of production and the growth of the modern proletariat to mirror that class of capitalists (although of course I realise that Catholic capitalists also then developed in other countries following the breakthrough in Protestant Germany, Switzerland, England and the Netherlands).

So swing things back to the faiths. Are they still related to society and competing social, political and economic interests? Yes, of course, the Middle East is the most stark example probably, but it is apparent anywhere. Would a money-making rich Republican supporting TV evangelicalist in the USA have been able to have religious unity with a Catholic Bishop in Brazil who stated "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist" (Helder Camara) despite them believing in the same God, the same Jesus and same sacred text? No, of course not, and you can find similar examples in their millions within and between all the Abrahamic religions (and the non-Abrahamic ones too - the often violent conflicts within Buddhism are fascinating in their own right).

[beeswax]

There is one common denominator in all this. MEN just love to fight each other for power, control and domination over others and they will use ANY excuse to do that whether that be organised religion,organised politics or organised tribalism.

That will never change, even if religion disappeared completely. Tribalism is probably the biggest factor.

One God and they all make him/her/it in their very own image and women? Almost, nowhere to be seen and yet arguably have the more ideal attributes to be in charge of the lot...

[Clariman]

My view on this would be that you would need to work from the other direction to find the reason why this is not possible, that is from people up to religious texts and a shared view of a monotheist deity, rather than from the top down.....
.... So swing things back to the faiths. Are they still related to society and competing social, political and economic interests? Yes, of course, the Middle East is the most stark example probably, but it is apparent anywhere. Would a money-making rich Republican supporting TV evangelicalist in the USA have been able to have religious unity with a Catholic Bishop in Brazil who stated "When I give food to the poor, they call me a saint. When I ask why the poor have no food, they call me a communist" (Helder Camara) despite them believing in the same God, the same Jesus and same sacred text? No, of course not, and you can find similar examples in their millions within and between all the Abrahamic religions (and the non-Abrahamic ones too - the often violent conflicts within Buddhism are fascinating in their own right).

Hi

As the OP, can I say that your post is an excellent answer to why they don't unite. I think you have hit the nail on the head, but the individual members of each of these faiths is unlikely to see it that way. They believe that their way is "the right way".

Great post.

Thanks
Clariman

[Clariman]

Just pondering your post a bit more....

My logic would say that if Islam, Christianity, Judaism and all their sects cannot unite in their belief of the same Abrahamic God, then they are all saying that their differences are MORE important to them than the underlying belief in God, which is an interesting notion.

C

[beeswax]

Just pondering your post a bit more....

My logic would say that if Islam, Christianity, Judaism and all their sects cannot unite in their belief of the same Abrahamic God, then they are all saying that their differences are MORE important to them than the underlying belief in God, which is an interesting notion.

C

Yes, that is correct and the reason in my opinion is they don't think it through what it is they really believe in otherwise they would unite in their common belief. What makes the three differ? Ah that is easy they will say. Jews and Muslims don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah and Christians do...But that wasn't the case with the apostles. All of them at the time, both Jew and Gentile had that common belief who Jesus was but the difference was their cultural baggage, who and what they were and what biblical laws they obeyed and what rituals were carried out, like circumcision and dietary stuff and indeed Christians then lost sight of God in favour of Jesus who for them in subsequent centuries became God himself. Its why most Christian Churches worship Jesus rather than God and why the Catholic Church is based wholly on the death of Jesus.

Its my opinion that Islam was invented by Muhammad because they felt they were being left behind by the rising tide of Christianity and so virtually plagiarised the OT for most if not all its belief system and why Sharia Law is a virtual copy of Mosaic Law. So once again, it was customs, laws, food, clothes, animal sacrifice and the obvious veneration of Muhammad that became more important than God. Can any suicide bomber really THINK that God would think its fine for them to murder innocent men, women and children in cold blood? WHY would they think God would command Jihad and force people to believe not just in God but their version? Christians lost sight of the pacifist nature of their founder when they also forced people to convert at the point of a sword and to burn so called heretics at the stake even when they believed in much the same God and the same Saviour Jesus. The Reformation was based on differences of doctrine like being saved by works or faith and how to get into heaven and the Church with its belief that they and they alone held the 'keys to the Kingdom' and could sell its soul for money, castles and mansions for its Popes and Priests to live in. Would Jesus approve of the Vatican and Mansions of the Archbishops, like Canterbury or even building vast Cathedrals at great cost, while children are going hungry across the world? Muslims Sunni and Shia fight to the death because of a family difference of who was the custodian of Islam after Muhammad and so what thought do they give to Allah whilst doing that?

Mormons follow a bloke who said he had a visitation from an Angel (No Jesus reappearing then?) and supposedly rewrote the bible but seems much the same to me and came up with ideas of a new Jerusalem in Salt Lake City where they think Jesus will reappear and not in the Middle East. They too follow some Sharia type laws and exclude women from its hierarchy and where is God in all this? Hundreds of cults and sects, all with their idea theirs is the only true one and nobody to guide them one way or the other.

IF they could just put the Creator God at the centre and live out their lives with respect for others and the golden rule and try and THINK that God wants NOTHING else from them, nothing! No bowing or praying, what food to eat or not eat, what clothes to wear and not even a Church,Synagogue or Mosque to worship him as that can be done alone at any hour of the day in our hearts and minds and to put the fair sex at the very centre of each life and allow them to be equal in every single respect possible. Almost NO religion does that and why for all the reasons above, I reject them ALL as being not from God but from pure vested male interests. And why again imo, God too rejects them all as well.

[GJHarney]

Good points Beeswax, and I agree that gender is an important consideration that is too often ignored.

In some very ways the specific role of gender in some religions has some obvious foundations within wider society and historical periods. Take the fact that in the Catholic church priests are both male and unmarried. There is some theological justification offered by the Church for the former using the argument that the disciples were all male (leaving aside some alternate Gospel versions involving Mary Magdalene being one of the disciples, although in the case of the 1st century Gospel of Thomas that was rediscovered in the Dead Sea Scrolls that was via a sexist transformation by Jesus of Mary becoming 'like a man'), but there is no theology for the unmarried part. However, the historical reason for priest celibacy was in fact related to a fear by the early church that in various countries if a priest married and had children then there could be an inheritance claim in church property.

All the Abrahamic religions are of course centered on male central characters. Again you can link this to the social relations at the time when the theology and religious texts were developed and written, although interestingly in the region where Mohammed began what would become Islam goddesses were worshiped at Mecca and the main male god known as Allah actually had a wife known as Allat (and I often wonder that if Allat had survived alongside her transformed husband how different the view of women would be in certain Islamic societies!).

But you really need to go outside the Abrahamic tradition to find gender balance among deities, from ancient northern European pagan gods like Eostre (related to modern celebrations of Easter) and Freya to Devi in Hinduism. Perhaps therefore it is unsurprising that modern paganism in the form of Wicca appears to have far more female adherents than male, even if much of it was essentially invented in the 1940s by a randy old scouse nudist by the name of Gerry Gardiner who had an unsettling habit of instructing attractive young women into its 'arcane mysteries' from the comfort of his bed.

[Halicarnassus]

I don't want to minimise the role of Christ to Christians, nor Mohammed to Muslims, but the underlying God is the same - is He not?

No.

Christianity recognises three distinct Persons in one God. Judaism does not. Neither does Islam.

From a Christian perspective (and I really mean Catholic here), Judaism rejects the fulfilment of the Old Testament with Christ the Saviour: ie The New Testament. Islam rejects this too but is founded on domination not charity.

These are basic differences that cannot be brushed aside or wished away by well meaning ecumenists. Nonetheless we can certainly pray that we can live together peacefully.

[Halicarnassus]

ts why most Christian Churches worship Jesus rather than God and why the Catholic Church is based wholly on the death of Jesus.

I disagree. I am a practising Catholic and I can tell you that many parts of the Old Law are relevant. The Psalms play are large part in the Church and predate the incarnation of Christ for example.

Obviously the consummation of Christ's mission with His death on the cross is necessary for the fulfilment of God's plan, but when you study the Liturgical year, it is not just based wholly on the New Testament.

Cheers

[Clariman]

I don't want to minimise the role of Christ to Christians, nor Mohammed to Muslims, but the underlying God is the same - is He not?

No.

Christianity recognises three distinct Persons in one God. Judaism does not. Neither does Islam.

From a Christian perspective (and I really mean Catholic here), Judaism rejects the fulfilment of the Old Testament with Christ the Saviour: ie The New Testament. Islam rejects this too but is founded on domination not charity.

These are basic differences that cannot be brushed aside or wished away by well meaning ecumenists. Nonetheless we can certainly pray that we can live together peacefully.

I understand that there are significant differences between the religions and that belief Jesus as saviour is fundamental to Christians. However, if you can set aside current Christian belief and look at it from a historical and logical perspective for a moment. Jesus was a Jew, so his God was the Jewish God. Agreed? So if you are arguing that the Christian God is completely different from the Jewish God then you are saying that Jesus believed in a different God to you too - and, therefore, the wrong God I presume!

All 3 of the faiths are Abrahamic faiths who evolved from the belief in the same God. This was confirmed to me by hearing some religious texts from leading Jewish, Islamic and Christian writers of around the 11th century (if I recall) who acknowledged that they believed in the same God.

It is such a shame that religions focus on their differences rather than what they share.

Clariman

[Halicarnassus]

Jesus was a jew. Yes. His Father, God the Father the 1st person of the Holy Trinity is the very same God as Jesus is God.

The Jews have rejected God the Son thus reject the same God as the Father.

It's a problem for them, not Christians.

[Clariman]

Jesus was a jew. Yes. His Father, God the Father the 1st person of the Holy Trinity is the very same God as Jesus is God.

The Jews have rejected God the Son thus reject the same God as the Father.

It's a problem for them, not Christians.

But why would God create division in his own believers? It would be madness. Jews believe in the original God. It was the Christians who diverged away from the original belief system (I'm playing devil's advocate).

Of course, the other big question is ... why would God wait for nearly 200,000 of Homo Sapiens existence before he felt it was worth sending them a saviour, merely 2,000 years ago? That also makes no sense.

However, forgive me ... this is the most important weekend for the Christian Church so maybe not the time to get into a discussion about it.

C

[beeswax]

Jesus was a jew. Yes. His Father, God the Father the 1st person of the Holy Trinity is the very same God as Jesus is God.

The Jews have rejected God the Son thus reject the same God as the Father
It's a problem for them, not Christians.

Not so, it's the Christians that have the difficulty and have since St Paul got involved and corrupted the whole thing. As Clariman said, Jesus worshipped the one and only God of the Old Testament who was a singular entity and not three entities. That concept of the Trinity was a later development by the mostly Gentile Church. The Lord's Prayer has Jesus saying OUR Father who art in heaven and so rules out completely that Jesus was or is God or part of any man made Trinity.

It was Paul who said that Jesus was the new covenant and that Gentiles did not have to obey some aspects of the law to get around the circumcision question. Meanwhile the disciples carried on trying to obey the law and Jesus said that not one dot or comma of the law will be set aside until the end of the world. He even said people are saved by obeying the law.

It's why It's not actually Christian theology the Church follows but Paul's teachings. It's why the Jews eventually parted company with the Gentile Church.

Jews can never accept that Jesus was the Messiah because he never fulfilled any of the prophesy when he was to come along. You will know that the Messiah was supposed to have come from the line of David and so another slight problem when the NT has God as his Father. There are far too many inconsistencies that are actually embarrassing for anyone that cares to actually study the texts. With respect.

But the answer whether they all are 'supposed' to worship the same God, is absolutely YES! The fact they try and say not is their problem and not the Jews at all.

[RowdyReptile]

But why would God create division in his own believers? It would be madness.

According to the text, there was division even in God's presence. What was the reason Satan/Lucifer/The Devil/Son of the Morning was cast out in the first place?

Of course, the other big question is ... why would God wait for nearly 200,000 of Homo Sapiens existence before he felt it was worth sending them a saviour, merely 2,000 years ago? That also makes no sense.

However, forgive me ... this is the most important weekend for the Christian Church so maybe not the time to get into a discussion about it.

I can only surmise that it(Christ's mission) was planned from the beginning, if you want to believe in such things. It kind of goes back to maybe why
there was a dust up in the heavens...maybe. Just a theory mind you, but it does fit the "facts".

RR

[beeswax]

But why would God create division in his own believers? It would be madness.

According to the text, there was division even in God's presence. What was the reason Satan/Lucifer/The Devil/Son of the Morning was cast out in the first place?

Of course, the other big question is ... why would God wait for nearly 200,000 of Homo Sapiens existence before he felt it was worth sending them a saviour, merely 2,000 years ago? That also makes no sense.

However, forgive me ... this is the most important weekend for the Christian Church so maybe not the time to get into a discussion about it.

I can only surmise that it(Christ's mission) was planned from the beginning, if you want to believe in such things. It kind of goes back to maybe why
there was a dust up in the heavens...maybe. Just a theory mind you, but it does fit the "facts".

RR

Hiya RR, hope you and yours are keeping well.

You know that Satan was hardly mentioned in the OT at all, about two or three times? And not at all during the fall, apart from a talking snake when God then said they would thus crawl along the ground from that time on. So it couldn't have been any kind of heavenly power or rival to God's authority and so no big deal and so no big issue for God and so there are NO facts, just theological musings to try and square the Christian question as why Jesus had to die for our sins etc.

Clariman posted the most interesting question that no Jew, Muslim or Christian has ever been able to answer, among many more is just e why did God wait a couple of hundred thousand years of Homo sapiens existence that is near factual as you can get, to decide that man needed saving from his sins or start talking to a few men in just the last 6000 years and send us a Savior in the last 2000?

Does this not suggest to any reasonable person that it's all man made superstition and all it needs is a few converts to start the ball rolling? You know not one person ever saw the 6 day creation and so how can anyone describe it as per Genesis and not one person witnessed the Resurrection of Jesus. I mean actually saw him come to life in the tomb?

As a former Christian, I can think of this time as significant in the Christian Calendar and used to celebrate it as such for longer than I care to remember but since I decided it was all myth and superstition, it holds absolutely nothing for me now.

I will say again and again that anyone who uses their religious beliefs and convictions to kill or maim even one man, woman and child are not worthy to be called a child of God and they cannot be thinking for themselves by doing so. Its even tragic for the suicide bombers and others who carry out such acts who are obviously brainwashed in evil doctrines by doing such a thing. I would hope that one day all religious people will realise this and can believe in a Creator God if they want to but allow anyone else to follow their own path in the short time we all have in this life and respect each other and not harm anyone in the process. If there is a God, then what more could he ask of us?

[beeswax]

ts why most Christian Churches worship Jesus rather than God and why the Catholic Church is based wholly on the death of Jesus.

I disagree. I am a practising Catholic and I can tell you that many parts of the Old Law are relevant. The Psalms play are large part in the Church and predate the incarnation of Christ for example.

Obviously the consummation of Christ's mission with His death on the cross is necessary for the fulfilment of God's plan, but when you study the Liturgical year, it is not just based wholly on the New Testament.

Cheers

s

What I mean is that the whole basis of the Catholic Church is based around the Mass and hardly any service in there takes place without that same ritual that for me keeps Jesus firmly in the tomb. I've been to some services from a research point of view and that was the case. It's also demeans people in making them feel less worthy and sinners that can only be redeemed by believing in such stuff. You are ill and we have the cure, so to speak. BTW have you been to confession lately so we can get something on you? The churches needed money and we have the keys to the Kingdom just in case!

It's an odd thing that I started my research in order to increase my knowledge and enhance my long beliefs in Christianity as the bible as the word of God and ended up rejecting It all as divisive, mostly historically untrue, the writers making claims that were made up to inflate their entrenched bias and huge discrepancies that were frankly embarrassing for any reasonable person. Most Christians and probably most Jews claim the bible is God's word but none would advocate reintroducing Mosaic Laws and at almost all their services pick and choose the good bits and leave out the stoning to death and God ordering the murder of children etc.

I am a Deist btw just in case you think I have become an Atheist, NO loving just and merciful God would punish any innocent person no matter what faith or non faith they may have. That should have been the message of organised religion and that of Jesus and Paul or anyone else but tribal loyalties matter much much more to insignificant men.

[RowdyReptile]

Hiya RR, hope you and yours are keeping well.

We are well, and I hope the same for you and yours.

You know that Satan was hardly mentioned in the OT at all, about two or three times? And not at all during the fall, apart from a talking snake when God then said they would thus crawl along the ground from that time on. So it couldn't have been any kind of heavenly power or rival to God's authority and so no big deal and so no big issue for God and so there are NO facts, just theological musings to try and square the Christian question as why Jesus had to die for our sins etc.

Hmmm.....it is true that the entire thing is not mapped out, but there are mentions of the former son of the morning in the OT.

How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!

Now one of the more peculiar passages is this one from the Book of Job....

Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them. And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land. But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face. And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

When I speak of "facts", I am speaking from the text and what it says. There is ample evidence in the text of a conflict, and one that obviously happened before the world was. One might ask themselves why that could have been, or should have been, but the text is clear. It is a constant theme in the Bible.

Clariman posted the most interesting question that no Jew, Muslim or Christian has ever been able to answer, among many more is just e why did God wait a couple of hundred thousand years of Homo sapiens existence that is near factual as you can get, to decide that man needed saving from his sins or start talking to a few men in just the last 6000 years and send us a Savior in the last 2000?

I have answered that question. It was planned from the beginning. There was no waiting, other than the human concept of time.

Does this not suggest to any reasonable person that it's all man made superstition and all it needs is a few converts to start the ball rolling? You know not one person ever saw the 6 day creation and so how can anyone describe it as per Genesis and not one person witnessed the Resurrection of Jesus. I mean actually saw him come to life in the tomb?

One would not be puzzled if another came to that conclusion, certainly.

As a former Christian, I can think of this time as significant in the Christian Calendar and used to celebrate it as such for longer than I care to remember but since I decided it was all myth and superstition, it holds absolutely nothing for me now.

Ok.

I will say again and again that anyone who uses their religious beliefs and convictions to kill or maim even one man, woman and child are not worthy to be called a child of God and they cannot be thinking for themselves by doing so. Its even tragic for the suicide bombers and others who carry out such acts who are obviously brainwashed in evil doctrines by doing such a thing. I would hope that one day all religious people will realise this and can believe in a Creator God if they want to but allow anyone else to follow their own path in the short time we all have in this life and respect each other and not harm anyone in the process. If there is a God, then what more could he ask of us?

Would a child be correct to blame their earthly parents for all their problems? Of course not.

RR

PS. Here is a link to some things I am sure you have never heard or read before. Is it true? I tend to think it is, but you decide. It certainly clears a few things up, but perhaps it was made up as well. If you thought traditional Christian thought was crazy, wait to you get a load of this....

http://eom.byu.edu/index.php/War_in_Heaven

https://www.lds.org/scriptures/gs/war-i ... n?lang=eng

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2015/03/sata ... n?lang=eng

I dare you to go through it all. Mind you I do not care whether you believe it or not, just another point of view.

RR

[Halicarnassus]

Most Christians and probably most Jews claim the bible is God's word but none would advocate reintroducing Mosaic Laws and at almost all their services pick and choose the good bits and leave out the stoning to death and God ordering the murder of children etc.

The problem we have is that we have elevated man to a God like status. What God does is beyond our grasp.

Everything that has been done by God and is recorded in the Bible is just. Whether we fully understand it or not is irrelevant.