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Should Islam, Christianity and Judaism unite?

Religion and Philosophy
Forum rules
we are introducing this on a trial basis and that respect for other's views is important e.g. phrases like "your imaginary friend" or "you will go to hell" are not appropriate
DiamondEcho
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Re: Should Islam, Christianity and Judaism unite?

#51297

Postby DiamondEcho » May 4th, 2017, 8:30 pm

quelquod wrote:Oh dear Beeswax, you really do churn out such drivel.
You discount scientists as only being able to go back to the Big-Bang, but support a view of the world that demands that the earth and everything on it was created about two thousand years ago. On that sub-topic a Christian demands that the sun orbits the earth and to hell with Copernicus. I'm not sure how a Christian can maintain that, do they deny it's untrue or somehow reconcile it?]

I think you have your figures wrong, but in any case very few Christians (or others who believe the Mosaic books) believe that they are universally literal.
You last couple of sentences above are quite remarkable if it's truly what you believe.
Rather than trying to respond I'd suggest a bit of reading around the subject before you try a Q&A with this degree of conciseness.


Sorry about that Beeswax, you took my flak there :lol: ;)
... but notice how there are no answers; oh, what, a, surprise...

So 'the books' aren't literal? But either way I think that's a given. Can you [Quelquod] at least outline in what way they're not literal, and if not what is their worth? If you can't why should they be some kind of law or rule that us simple folk should be ruled by?

Rather than reading as you suggest, perhaps explain your idea of a rational basis of your consciousness?

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Re: Should Islam, Christianity and Judaism unite?

#51300

Postby quelquod » May 4th, 2017, 8:48 pm

DiamondEcho wrote:Rather than reading as you suggest

The reason for suggesting this is that (as you likely have an inkling of) you seem to require a degree in theology to be condensed into a (briefer than some) reply. Sadly I can't.
Similarly in a way to Prof. Hawkins requiring a whole book to explain in layman's terms just the outline of his understanding of the origin of the universe and why, with our present knowledge, we can never hope to understand what happened at time zero.

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Re: Should Islam, Christianity and Judaism unite?

#51303

Postby beeswax » May 4th, 2017, 8:58 pm

No worries DE, its par for the course and note that none of them come back on specific answers to specific questions and you are right to ask who decided what is literal and what is allegorical in the bible? Does it say at the beginning of each book or chapter, now chaps, this should not be taken literally, you know when Jesus said "eat my flesh and drink my blood it really is my body and blood" and once again no follow up questions from anyone and here we are 2000 years later the Catholic Church still thinks that is real flesh and real blood and why the transubstantiation and the Priest waving his hands magically over them before they give them to the congregation who all have been deceived big time since...

Paul Daniels was much more convincing...;)

Pity though isn't it they all revert to the very same thing, ban you, insult you and then walk away...

Ignorance really is bliss!

For those that say science and religion is compatible they may just think about that the next time they have mass..

Oh look Jesus's blood looks a bit cloudy today and his body seems a bit stale!

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Re: Should Islam, Christianity and Judaism unite?

#51331

Postby RowdyReptile » May 5th, 2017, 12:29 am

beeswax wrote:No worries DE, its par for the course and note that none of them come back on specific answers to specific questions


Excrement.

I for one have directly answered your questions.

beeswax wrote:Pity though isn't it they all revert to the very same thing, ban you, insult you and then walk away...


I might have insulted you, and I doubt I rely on the "very same thing". One thing is for damn sure I am not walking away.

You got some sort of problem, man?

;)

RR

Halicarnassus
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Re: Should Islam, Christianity and Judaism unite?

#51356

Postby Halicarnassus » May 5th, 2017, 9:32 am

DiamondEcho wrote:I disagree that it's domain is as restricted as that. Wikipedia defines it as 'Science is a systematic enterprise that builds and organizes knowledge in the form of testable explanations and predictions about the universe.'. So science is about more than the physical realm,


Yes and you know fine well that Dawkins et al and all the other pop atheists, mean Natural Sciences when they bring so called evidence to answer non Scientific questions. The popular fad in our epoch is evolutionary biology. It will have it's day then we will be on to something else.


DiamondEcho wrote:Darwin's Origin of Species [c1860] was both radical, and heretical to the Church when it was published; the latter being no surprise since it threatened the Church's power. [Side-thought, why would the Church be interested in having power when it projects itself as selfless and noble?] How far our 'smuggled in' knowledge, our ability to 'prove beyond reasonable doubt' has come these past 160 years. It seems that after just 160 years a Christian would have us discount Darwin, but accept religion on the basis of faith in the absence of any evidence. IMO in modern parlance that's a 'tough sell'. Is it any wonder church attendance has dropped off a cliff in parallel with the increase in education and knowledge?
You discount scientists as only being able to go back to the Big-Bang, but support a view of the world that demands that the earth and everything on it was created about two thousand years ago. On that sub-topic a Christian demands that the sun orbits the earth and to hell with Copernicus. I'm not sure how a Christian can maintain that, do they deny it's untrue or somehow reconcile it?


Hard to know where to start on this one... First of all what 'Church' are you talking about? Darwinian theories of evolution have never been deemed heretical by the Catholic Church. Darwin was never deemed a heretic as by the very fact of being a protestant, so he is de facto heretical anyway.

Can you please provide the Catholic Papal Encyclicals, Bulls or Apostolic letter from the Holy Father at any time from when Darwin published his findings that said either Darwin was a heretic or his writings were heresy or that the RC Church disagreed with theories of evolution?

Well I'll save you time: you will not find them.

And please stop embarrassing yourself. Actually read through this thread and you might see that the Catholic Church has no problem with the earth being 13 point whatever million years old.

Like other ignorant pop atheists you (like Dawkins) sensationalise wacky young earth creationists who think that the earth is 6000 yrs old (not 2000 as you err) and stereotype all Christian denominations as so. It is the most cowardly illogical demagogical device to suggest that one groups errors are shared by all. You should be ashamed of yourself.

DiamondEcho wrote:
Here you're suggesting that knowledge that contradicts Christian teaching is ok, but development of knowledge [if possible] about 'Christ' isn't allowed. If he exists, he has a form of protected status. But if he existed and more knowledge came to light, would you not want to know it? If that were the case aren't you more a follower of a concept, or perhaps an ideal, than a set of proven facts?
The Catholic faith might be concerned with the 'Salvation of Souls' I don't know, but when the peasantry were toiling 18hrs a day in the fields just to get by, selling them scientifically ridiculous myths like 'turning water into wine' might has been a simpler task than it is these days. Can I ask, which bits of the bible are we meant to take at face value and how is the average person meant to know?



I think you need to do some research before you waste any more time ranting against the Church.
Transubstantiation is not scientific in any sense it is the reenactment of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ at Calvary. It encompasses Jesus Christ's exact prescription of turning bread and wine into his body and blood. I couldn't care less if you don't believe, that is your problem not mine.

As far as face value and scripture, the Church has had for two thousand years the most intelligent of men who ever lived like St Thomas Aquinas who studied scripture their whole life.

But you need not be a Saint to recognise what is metaphor, simile, analogy, true story, truth: just as in every day life. If I told you to take a hike, I wouldn't expect you to do it literally. If I asked you for some tobacco, you might think I really meant it. The language of the scripture written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit was well understood and written in such a way for the people of those ages.

They understood for instance parables as stories that held essential truths, not facts. Today the likes of you and your pop atheists would want to see evidence to see if the man in the parable really existed. If he didn't really exist you would through the whole thing out, missing the point.

As you are now.

Again.

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Re: Should Islam, Christianity and Judaism unite?

#51448

Postby DiamondEcho » May 5th, 2017, 4:28 pm

Halicarnassus wrote:Yes and you know fine well that Dawkins et al and all the other pop atheists, mean Natural Sciences when they bring so called evidence to answer non Scientific questions. The popular fad in our epoch is evolutionary biology. It will have it's day then we will be on to something else.

Unlike religion knowledge evolves through being constantly refined, and so yes the the understanding of evolution will evolve, though presumably at an increasingly slow pace now that the core structures of it are accepted. Do you see evolutionary biology in future being proved false and a return to creationism? What kind of proof would be required, the Second Coming for a start I imagine.

Halicarnassus wrote:Hard to know where to start on this one... First of all what 'Church' are you talking about? Darwinian theories of evolution have never been deemed heretical by the Catholic Church. Darwin was never deemed a heretic as by the very fact of being a protestant, so he is de facto heretical anyway.

Haha, you've got to love religion, Catholics don't brand Darwin a heretic for his iconoclastic works themselves but because he belonged to another flavour of Christianity?
'Q. When did the church accept evolution?
A. The church first brought evolution into the fold in 1950 with the work of Pope Pius XII, writes io9. “At the same time, Catholics take no issue with the Big Bang theory, along with cosmological, geological, and biological axioms touted by science.”'


You might think it took a century after Darwin for them to accept the inevitable tide of progress and knowledge. You might jest that even Moses himself couldn't have resisted it any longer.

Halicarnassus wrote:Like other ignorant pop atheists you (like Dawkins) sensationalise wacky young earth creationists who think that the earth is 6000 yrs old (not 2000 as you err) and stereotype all Christian denominations as so. It is the most cowardly illogical demagogical device to suggest that one groups errors are shared by all. You should be ashamed of yourself.


I'm not familiar with Dawkins work though know his name; your dismissive tone suggests he contradicts your beliefs. This is something I have come to learn especially living out here in a god-fearing country, when you question the beliefs of a religionist you are challenging his core identity. The response might vary from throwing up a cloud of chaff-like bluster, to publicly throwing you to your death off a roof-top. Why do you believe the Catholic belief of the creation of the world is more valid than the creation beliefs of other religions?

I wouldn't consider myself any form of 'pop atheist'. I have studied [at uni] genetics, evolution, the philosophy of science and religion; Popper's falsificationism, perhaps you've studied this Fellow of the Royal Society's works and had the greater knowledge to dismiss them.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Popper


Halicarnassus wrote:I think you need to do some research before you waste any more time ranting against the Church.
Transubstantiation is not scientific in any sense it is the reenactment of the sacrifice of Jesus Christ at Calvary. It encompasses Jesus Christ's exact prescription of turning bread and wine into his body and blood. I couldn't care less if you don't believe, that is your problem not mine.


I'm not 'ranting against the church', just requesting some evidence that an average person in the modern day might consider reasonable to determine that there is some truth in it: But I don't see any. I don't quite follow what this transubstantiation is, so at communion do you consider the Sacrament to be wine and rice paper, a kind of metaphor perhaps, or do you believe it is literally his flesh and blood?


Halicarnassus wrote:As far as face value and scripture, the Church has had for two thousand years the most intelligent of men who ever lived like St Thomas Aquinas who studied scripture their whole life.


Perhaps that title is bestowed upon those who are most useful to the Church's power? But with so few people being committed Christians these days I can't see their view's relevance to the majority.


Halicarnassus wrote: The language of the scripture written by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit was well understood and written in such a way for the people of those ages.


Written largely for the illiterate and uneducated. Perhaps it should be updated to cater to the more educated and informed modern mind; that might make it more compelling? Perhaps difficult when it has been declared the word of God.


Halicarnassus wrote: They understood for instance parables as stories that held essential truths, not facts. Today the likes of you and your pop atheists would want to see evidence to see if the man in the parable really existed. If he didn't really exist you would through the whole thing out, missing the point.


No, not at all. But I'd like to understand things like why they believe space was found on the Ark, miniscule for it's stated purpose, for things like the deadly diseases.
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Re: Should Islam, Christianity and Judaism unite?

#51490

Postby beeswax » May 5th, 2017, 7:06 pm

DE, I'm not sure you will get any answers from any Christian, Muslim or Jew for that matter and you will no doubt join me on their ignore list. I wonder how they can possibly recruit new members these days if they won't discuss the sort of questions that IF believers were serious about their faith, they would have no problem doing. But its common for them to say we are speaking nonsense or bile or any adjective they think suits. Nice Christians they are too hey?

I can add this which is going off topic but needs saying and one reason you will never see me enter any kind of religious establishment ever again and have told everyone to have me cremated asap and straight in our family grave with no 'church' or other religious mumbo jumbo period! And I was a Christian for 50 years? What an idiot I was!

My MIL is 99 this year and went to the same church for over 70 years and they gave money they could hardly afford to help keep it running including paying the Pastor's wages or stipend as they like to call it...They clearly want to confuse people by using such terms. When my FIL died about ten years ago now, not one of his church went to see him in hospital after a stroke, not even his Pastor. He died ten days later and the funeral was held at his church and it was full up. When my MIL who is now in Nursing home, stopped going to her church due to ill health and mobility problems about four years ago, again not one of them went to see her and still don't and she never got one phone call to ask if she needed anything or how she was and would she like to have a cup of tea with them. Again, not even her Pastor! Yet this church has a notice outside on certain days asking people to go in and have a cup of tea or coffee etc. A so called Christian friend of hers going back many decades sent her a Christmas card last year and then rang up the home to say she had put 20 pounds in it by mistake and could they come round and get it back?

Apart from the odd one she doesn't get any birthday, Christmas or Easter cards from the church she attended all those years (She used to get about fifty cards when she was regularly attending and putting their money in) and nobody visits her, least of all the Pastor who she supported all those years. And nobody rings me either to ask how she is..I could add a lot more but the net result is that I despise what that Church stands for and if that hypocritical bunch ever see heaven, then I don't want to be there...

Some may add that not all Churches and Christians are like that. I have been to a few churches including that one for some years and I can say categorically, they are all the bloody same..I have often said it is possible I could have followed Jesus himself had I been around then but when the organised church took over, they ruined everything he stood for. They were all in it for themselves, especially the Catholic Church with all its wealth and works of art while children starve in the world and would rather spend their money on bread and wine pretending its the blood and body of Christ. They now try and say transubstantiation doesn't mean its 'literally' changed into his body and blood....and is symbolic...Oh yeh.tell that to the birds, they preached it was for 1900 years until science proved nothing changed...oh how they wish scientific enquiry would go away so they can continue to hoodwink us all. If it was just symbolic then why do they need an ordained Priest to wave his hand over the bread and wine if not to carry on this deception?

I have no time for any organised religion because they are all false and masters of deception that have distorted our children and adult minds and why as people become more educated, they will see through it and abandon it all. It took me a while, but better late than never...

They will no doubt call this a 'rant' again and 'bile' but so what, they will no doubt ignore it all, as usual but I just tell the truth as I have experienced it over many decades.

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Re: Should Islam, Christianity and Judaism unite?

#51544

Postby Halicarnassus » May 6th, 2017, 2:26 am

DiamondEcho wrote:Do you see evolutionary biology in future being proved false and a return to creationism? What kind of proof would be required, the Second Coming for a start I imagine.


The quality of this answer to all level headed people reading this thread shows that (like another poster mentioned above) it is pointless discussing anything with you.

As you seem to have some difficulty holding thoughts in your head from one response to the next let me point out why.

What has the fact or fiction of evolution got to do with whether one believes in God? Have you understood anything you have read?

Evolution is a fact. It matters zilch though to the question of is there an intelligence that created the universe. Can't you see that?

Your friend the Deist by admission has admitted (by reference to his label as Deist) that he believes in an intelligence that created the universe.

Why? It cannot be to do with anything to do with evolution, nuclear physics or origami. These all belong to our Earth which came into being.

If you seriously wish to debate the God question, you need to stop barking up the wrong tree my friend and deal with Creation, not evolution.

Here's a thought for you to ponder.

If our friend The Deist on here, who is so disparaging about Christ and miracles etc, can believe in a created universe: you know, some ultimate power that has created this world of ours... If that is possible, why do the very same people scoff at reported miracles such as making the blind see and the lame walk?

The intellectual dishonesty is staggering.

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Re: Should Islam, Christianity and Judaism unite?

#51552

Postby Halicarnassus » May 6th, 2017, 5:03 am

RowdyReptile wrote:
beeswax wrote:No worries DE, its par for the course and note that none of them come back on specific answers to specific questions


Excrement.

I for one have directly answered your questions.

beeswax wrote:Pity though isn't it they all revert to the very same thing, ban you, insult you and then walk away...


I might have insulted you, and I doubt I rely on the "very same thing". One thing is for damn sure I am not walking away.

You got some sort of problem, man?

;)

RR


Hi Rowdy
I see that a certain poster (from your quote) has been banging the walking away nonsense. I do find it much better to ignore these types (by blocking them), but it's up to you of course :D

Anyway I do engage with other posters who I disagree with up until the point when it's obvious they are not reading anything that has been already said. I'm not talking about reading and disagreeing, but not reading at all.

I mean this thread is so much better already because I can't read the 'thoughts' of a particularly, and in my eyes aggressive, poster. You are left therefore with a thread that remains a place of debate and discussion but without the noise. :)

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Re: Should Islam, Christianity and Judaism unite?

#51893

Postby RowdyReptile » May 7th, 2017, 6:42 pm

Halicarnassus wrote:
Hi Rowdy
I see that a certain poster (from your quote) has been banging the walking away nonsense. I do find it much better to ignore these types (by blocking them), but it's up to you of course :D

Anyway I do engage with other posters who I disagree with up until the point when it's obvious they are not reading anything that has been already said. I'm not talking about reading and disagreeing, but not reading at all.

I mean this thread is so much better already because I can't read the 'thoughts' of a particularly, and in my eyes aggressive, poster. You are left therefore with a thread that remains a place of debate and discussion but without the noise. :)


Well, I have a bit of a history with the person you refer, and I am ok with that poster. It is always good to have a kick in your complacency and not live in an echo chamber. It can get tiresome as it seems we beat the same drums, or dead horses, at times, but in the end I imagine there are things I can find in common with the referenced poster. We just have to follow board rules and not let it become personal I suppose.

For me, coming to an overseas board and ignoring people makes no sense. If they sling mud, I do have a bad tendency, in the past, to sling it back, and that gets me nowhere. Not very Christian, mudslinging, but I never said I was the best Christian.

RR

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Re: Should Islam, Christianity and Judaism unite?

#51906

Postby RowdyReptile » May 7th, 2017, 7:44 pm

beeswax wrote:
I can add this which is going off topic but needs saying and one reason you will never see me enter any kind of religious establishment ever again and have told everyone to have me cremated asap and straight in our family grave with no 'church' or other religious mumbo jumbo period! And I was a Christian for 50 years? What an idiot I was!

My MIL is 99 this year and went to the same church for over 70 years and they gave money they could hardly afford to help keep it running including paying the Pastor's wages or stipend as they like to call it...They clearly want to confuse people by using such terms. When my FIL died about ten years ago now, not one of his church went to see him in hospital after a stroke, not even his Pastor. He died ten days later and the funeral was held at his church and it was full up. When my MIL who is now in Nursing home, stopped going to her church due to ill health and mobility problems about four years ago, again not one of them went to see her and still don't and she never got one phone call to ask if she needed anything or how she was and would she like to have a cup of tea with them. Again, not even her Pastor! Yet this church has a notice outside on certain days asking people to go in and have a cup of tea or coffee etc. A so called Christian friend of hers going back many decades sent her a Christmas card last year and then rang up the home to say she had put 20 pounds in it by mistake and could they come round and get it back?


Dayum.

beeswax wrote:Apart from the odd one she doesn't get any birthday, Christmas or Easter cards from the church she attended all those years (She used to get about fifty cards when she was regularly attending and putting their money in) and nobody visits her, least of all the Pastor who she supported all those years. And nobody rings me either to ask how she is..I could add a lot more but the net result is that I despise what that Church stands for and if that hypocritical bunch ever see heaven, then I don't want to be there...


There will be much weeping and crying and gnashing of teeth, or so it is written.

beeswax wrote:Some may add that not all Churches and Christians are like that.


Although there was a lot more in your paragraph, let me just say that this is an area where all churches can improve, and that is truly taking care of our members. I can give countless examples of how this is actually done, but in the end, something gets missed, someone is left alone, and we fail in our duty. This is a legitimate criticism. My church organizes to try to minimize this problem, but we fall short of our stated goals and ideals with respect to protecting the saints all the time.

beeswax wrote:They will no doubt call this a 'rant' again and 'bile' but so what, they will no doubt ignore it all, as usual but I just tell the truth as I have experienced it over many decades.


Not a rant, nor is it bile. A legitimate criticism that we of the faith see all the time. As a person of faith, your first duty is to yourself, as you cannot help others unless you are healthy and together. Then, it is to your family. Then to your community at large, including, but not exclusively to, your own flock.

I think sometimes we in the faith can quote the book, but rarely act it out in our lives. It might be good for some to put the book down, and go live it.

RR

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Re: Should Islam, Christianity and Judaism unite?

#51928

Postby beeswax » May 7th, 2017, 10:39 pm

RR,thanks for reading my last couple of posts and your understanding.

Yes, we can all do more no matter what faith or no faith. Each one of us deserves respect and love. We really don't need religion or a text book to explain why.

Its not why I renounced my Christian faith though, I think we have done that though.

Deism may not be the answer but better than organised religion in my opinion anyhow.

BTW, when I said believers insult and walk away, I wasn't thinking of you because I know you haven't done so in all the time we had discussions on the other forum. I accept frustration can creep in and it can be very challenging for those with a deep faith but as I said, running away or ignoring people isn't the answer when each and every question needs anwering by a mostly skeptical world where religion is concerned and although there is comfort in numbers with a common belief, it should not be a problem explaining it ninety nine times and some...to paraphrase a NT phrase by Jesus...Its fine Pastors preaching feeding the hungry and starving and visiting people in prison, looking after widows and orphans as Jesus did and then added for those that didn't, to depart from him, but again we shouldn't need Jesus to have told us that really. Its part of human compassion and empathy for each other or should be..I was thinking of my MIL when Jesus used those words actually and yes, you are right, great knashing of teeth..

The OP asked a great question and IF God wanted one faith ie the Christian one, or the Jewish one or the Muslim one or one of the other world religions then isn't it reasonable to think he would act to ensure that happened? If Jesus spoke to Paul, then why not Muhammad which would have made a huge difference in the last 1500 years and IF God was serious that none should perish and have everlasting life, then either God doesn't care or God isn't looking which makes a lot of sense actually because of the great suffering in the world has taken place like the holocaust, hunger and disease. Its why Deism is a belief in a Creator who doesn't intervene and makes much more sense than some claiming he intervenes with their particular one and so much more likely he never has ever and so makes all religious text ever written, fake news! ;)

I just thought of that last two words and hope it gives you a laugh!

ATB

Mike

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Re: Should Islam, Christianity and Judaism unite?

#51937

Postby RowdyReptile » May 7th, 2017, 11:15 pm

Mike,

beeswax wrote:RR,thanks for reading my last couple of posts and your understanding.

Yes, we can all do more no matter what faith or no faith. Each one of us deserves respect and love. We really don't need religion or a text book to explain why.


I agree with that, certainly.


beeswax wrote:BTW, when I said believers insult and walk away, I wasn't thinking of you because I know you haven't done so in all the time we had discussions on the other forum. I accept frustration can creep in and it can be very challenging for those with a deep faith but as I said, running away or ignoring people isn't the answer when each and every question needs anwering by a mostly skeptical world where religion is concerned and although there is comfort in numbers with a common belief, it should not be a problem explaining it ninety nine times and some...to paraphrase a NT phrase by Jesus...Its fine Pastors preaching feeding the hungry and starving and visiting people in prison, looking after widows and orphans as Jesus did and then added for those that didn't, to depart from him, but again we shouldn't need Jesus to have told us that really. Its part of human compassion and empathy for each other or should be..I was thinking of my MIL when Jesus used those words actually and yes, you are right, great knashing of teeth..


Understood. The full explanation of the Gospel from an LDS view is something I have been hesitant to do. You know... the full court press. It is radically different from the RC church. It is radically different from anything you have heard.

beeswax wrote:The OP asked a great question and IF God wanted one faith ie the Christian one, or the Jewish one or the Muslim one or one of the other world religions then isn't it reasonable to think he would act to ensure that happened?


It is difficult to answer from my faith's point of view, as we see it as divisions that are not inspired by God. To tip toe down these tulips, you must understand I see you as a brother or sister that agreed with 2/3 of the host of heaven and that is why you are here now. The same as myself.

We have an entirely different concept of heaven and hell. So much so that other Christians say we are the church of the devil. It is maybe one reason those God fearing Christians wanted to kill us.



beeswax wrote:I just thought of that last two words and hope it gives you a laugh!


Why would you think I would laugh at that? I don't think that is funny at all.


:)

I bet I almost had you. :)

Regards,

Gene

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Re: Should Islam, Christianity and Judaism unite?

#51939

Postby RowdyReptile » May 7th, 2017, 11:33 pm

So, brother Mike, when I give you a song by our choir, it is not done lightly. We have overcome many things. We should be forgiving in many things.

Though hard to you this journey may appear, grace shall be as your day

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxfmNilOkXA

Gene

Halicarnassus
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Re: Should Islam, Christianity and Judaism unite?

#52133

Postby Halicarnassus » May 9th, 2017, 3:16 am

God ensures free will: to win salvation or eternal suffering.

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Re: Should Islam, Christianity and Judaism unite?

#52174

Postby beeswax » May 9th, 2017, 9:27 am

Halicarnassus wrote:God ensures free will: to win salvation or eternal suffering.


We can see why Most Christians won't engage when this sort of evil doctrine is preached in the name of their God because it's not loving, it's not compassionate and it goes against every sense of the universal concept of fairness and justice and why it's nonsense and was and is designed to force people to join their cult. It's why no 'thinking' person could go along with it.

Pity he doesn't get to read this reply.

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Re: Should Islam, Christianity and Judaism unite?

#52224

Postby Halicarnassus » May 9th, 2017, 12:05 pm

Cardinal Newman...
Liberalism then is the mistake of subjecting to human judgment those revealed doctrines which are in their nature beyond and independent of it, and of claiming to determine on intrinsic grounds the truth and value of propositions which rest for their reception simply on the external authority of the Divine Word.

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Re: Should Islam, Christianity and Judaism unite?

#52296

Postby DiamondEcho » May 9th, 2017, 4:14 pm

beeswax wrote:
Halicarnassus wrote:God ensures free will: to win salvation or eternal suffering.

We can see why Most Christians won't engage when this sort of evil doctrine is preached in the name of their God because it's not loving, it's not compassionate and it goes against every sense of the universal concept of fairness and justice and why it's nonsense and was and is designed to force people to join their cult. It's why no 'thinking' person could go along with it.


Some kind of free will; but it hardly aligns with the supposed benevolent and forgiving tenets of christianity. It's tantamount to having someone at the wrong end of a gun and saying 'Ok, you have the free will to get on your knees and worship me, or alternatively dying hideously and very slowly'. How is that supposed to bring people closer together?

As as you say Beeswax, it's for such suggested beliefs, requirements like those, that I have no interest in observing my own religion.

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Re: Should Islam, Christianity and Judaism unite?

#52394

Postby RowdyReptile » May 9th, 2017, 11:25 pm

To dance, you have to hear the music you like. If you do not hear it, you cannot truly dance. It cannot be forced or compelled.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ju8S2vswhjY

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Re: Should Islam, Christianity and Judaism unite?

#52397

Postby Halicarnassus » May 10th, 2017, 12:02 am

DiamondEcho wrote:
As as you say Beeswax, it's for such suggested beliefs, requirements like those, that I have no interest in observing my own religion.


So... you think that Free Will is a requirement that is a bridge too far? :lol: Well ok then. You can opt for the other thesis: we are wholly determined in what we think and do. Try fitting that theory into real life. Rape, Murder, Robbery, Genecide...all non mea culpa

The fact is, uncomfortable though it may be to be faced with, is that turning away from God is a manifest act of Pride in Selfishness. Religious duty is just too hard for most people in this world. I pray they wake up before they meet their sentence.


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