The bible-Is it true?

[beeswax]

Hamzah, you make the point well that 'who' decides whether a text is an allegory or to be taken literally? That is something I was always asked when I used to argue this very point that once we KNOW that the story or written text is not literally true by scientific discovery, then that should be ruled OUT as being true, although many religious people then have a fall back position which of course is allegory. So when God commands the Jews to kill the men women and children of the Amacelites one would presume its literal but then calls into question the love, compassion and justice that the NT God is supposed to have. Was the Flood an allegory? The Tower of Babel? ALL have sinned and need Jesus?

Also I don't take that much notice of what the Church Fathers said in the first three centuries or what someone said in the middle ages because it is just THEIR own ideas and why I always used to ask you to respond in what YOU thought about these issues and not some albeit distinguished Imam or Rabbi etc. The bible text was clearly what mostly ignorant men thought about the world about them and why they got so much wrong but again the problem is not that religious text may be valuable in trying to explain a code of ethics or morality eg like the Ten Commandments or the Golden Rule but they really spoil it by trying to make up stories that have no basis of truth like the fall, original sin and needing a redeemer and worse. What to wear, what to eat and eternal heaven and hell and condemnation for thought crime. marriage and divorce rules, no intermarriage between faiths and many things still that corrupt peoples mind and spirit and thus affecting the living in harmony with each other, both the religious and non believer.

What really annoys is that many people (not you) think that not believing in organised religion and its text makes one an atheist. They are obviously not thinking clearly. In fairness the word Deism is not recognised by most religious people and why they say what they do...

God forgive them for they don't know what they do...

I'm quite happy to have 'ALLEGORY' printed on all the covers of ALL religious text similar to Pilgrims Progress and don't know whether anyone has read that who reads and posts here but there is much to take from that book without having to believe in its literalism...One man's search for the eternal city and God and all his trials and tribulations in the process and many falling by the wayside...It could be a personal manual for each of us in search of that place and that God...And no mention of Pork being forbidden...If I recall?

[RowdyReptile]

You talk about 'make believe' RR, but I find it most odd an intelligent Western adult can believe in things that didn't exist: Adam + Eve, and the Garden of Eden. Do you believe either or both are the literal truth, or is it 'accepted truth', 'faith', or some parallel similar form? [genuinely/respectfully curious].

I bother mentioning this since I enjoy your posts; but the forays into 'Christian fundamentalism' [er, to me ] seem so alien.

Glad you like my posts. I enjoy yours and all the different views expressed by the posters here, believe it or not. A lot of intelligent people posting here and previously on TMF UK.

I am going to try and condense to one post a response to you and Beeswax. IIRC, I tended to over reply on TMF UK, and it really wasn't necessary.

Your last sentence seems "alien" to me, as the real Christian fundamentalists tend to not like the LDS Church. To them, we are the Church of the Devil.

Believe it or not, my church has no official position on Darwinism or the theories of evolution. They allow us to make up our own minds on the subject, and there are not questions asked, no litmus test, on what an individual feels about that for membership. Now it is true that much has been said on the subject by church leaders in the past, and are readily available on the net for those interested. There is also a site that covers all things to do with Mormonism, and does a great job of answering questions and the critics.

http://www.fairmormon.org/

My personal belief is that I tend to side with the allegorical nature of the events depicted in Genesis. Talking snakes, forbidden fruits, and all that seem preposterous to modern 21st century people like you and I and beeswax. My only purpose in delving into this was to reject the doctrine of "original sin". The events in the Garden, be they actual or a symbol, say that what transpired was exactly what God intended. We were not supposed to remain in an innocent state, not knowing good from evil. I mean face it, Adam and Eve were kind of stupid, as they did not know at one time that they were nekkid.

If you think interpreting the Garden is tough, wait to you find out LDS theology believes in a premortal existence. That gets really bizarre...or so it does if you believe traditional Christian teachings that never even mention such a notion. However, it is not my intention to push or dwell on LDS theology here. I truly want to find common ground with the atheist/agnostic or believers of other faiths such as Islam, for instance. No need on repeating all that which separates us once again. Just my humble opinion though. I can go there, but I don't think it will be all that productive.

There is something beeswax said that I will respond to directly however.

I very much doubt whether they believe anything they say but the alternative is unemployed Popes, Pastors and Priests...

That may be true in some Christian churches, but not in mine. You see, our clergy all have full time jobs in the secular world. We could fold our tents tomorrow, and it would not hurt the income stream for them because they do not receive compensation from the church. So we have that going for us, which is nice. Now the General Authorities do get a stipend or so I am told, but they all had real jobs once in their lives. For instance, the "top three" or what we call the First Presidency, had lives before their current callings. While it is true that they are probably beyond retirement age, when they were younger, they actually worked for a living. When you have a resume' like one of them have, with a Bachelor's degree in Physics, and Masters and Doctoral degrees in Business from Harvard, and having taught at Standord and MIT, I imagine you could find a job if you wanted to find a job. But, perhaps that is just me. He is not unique in our leaders, btw. Another one was a pilot, and once well placed with Lufthansa airlines at one point in his life.

I hope this puts things into a little more perspective of where I am coming from. Or perhaps it won't, but definitely one of the two.

RR

[DiamondEcho]

Your last sentence seems "alien" to me, as the real Christian fundamentalists tend to not like the LDS Church. To them, we are the Church of the Devil.
Believe it or not, my church has no official position on Darwinism or the theories of evolution. They allow us to make up our own minds on the subject, and there are not questions asked, no litmus test, on what an individual feels about that for membership. Now it is true that much has been said on the subject by church leaders in the past, and are readily available on the net for those interested. There is also a site that covers all things to do with Mormonism, and does a great job of answering questions and the critics. http://www.fairmormon.org/

Ah I see, I hadn't realised you were an LDS. Although I've met 'Mormons' before, in passing, it's not a church I know at all about; how it's distinctive. So thanks for the link, and I looked forward to reading it.

[RowdyReptile]

Ah I see, I hadn't realised you were an LDS. Although I've met 'Mormons' before, in passing, it's not a church I know at all about; how it's distinctive. So thanks for the link, and I looked forward to reading it.

Yes, I am Latter Day Saint. Not the best one around. You could say I am in the Porter Rockwell branch of the church. If you do not know who he is, don't worry about it. It is not important really.

RR

[quelquod]

"My only purpose in delving into this was to reject the doctrine of "original sin". The events in the Garden, be they actual or a symbol, say that what transpired was exactly what God intended. We were not supposed to remain in an innocent state, not knowing good from evil. I mean face it, Adam and Eve were kind of stupid, as they did not know at one time that they were nekkid

As a member of a 'happy, clappy' church I confess I didn't know this of the LDS sect - probably one thing of a multitude. I don't agree with it though, probably few churches do, as though God undoubtedly knew it would happen it's not biblical. I think the principle shown throughout the OT is more that given free will, love succeeds where diktat, even from God (!), doesn't.

I'll have a look through your interesting link.

(And I think they knew OK, just it didn't matter )

[Lootman]

Ah I see, I hadn't realised you were an LDS. Although I've met 'Mormons' before, in passing, it's not a church I know at all about; how it's distinctive. So thanks for the link, and I looked forward to reading it.

You've almost definitely seen Mormon missionaries on their rounds. Interestingly they often seem to set up "digs" in the least salubrious parts of town, and the sight of a couple of impossibly fresh-faced youths in suits strolling through a bad part of town, with seeming immunity to risk, perhaps can be seen as a nod to the idea that there is more to the LDC church than meets the eye.

At the same time, the often spectacular Mormon churches are usually situated in premium real estate. The UK "Temple", for instance, is in South Kensington, even while the poor missionaries are stuck in Bethnal Green or Peckham.

And give them credit - The LDS church is the richest on the planet in per capita terms, and not least because the 10% tithe is enforced fairly rigourously. And there are a lot of rich Mormons.

Too bad the original Book of Mormon vanished right after Joseph Smith translated it (by divine intervention because of course he didn't understand Aramaic; I'm not even sure he could read and write). And too bad that polygamy thing went out of fashion. But feel the passion - in some quasi-Mormon communities in the American West that are off the grid, there's still a kind of "eye for an eye" justice that would not have felt out of place 150 years ago. And polygamy, still.