The bible-Is it true?

[beeswax]

Clariman has asked that I try and tone down my thoughts when discussing religious faiths and because so many people deeply believe in their religious books that we respect their faith and by implication their religious text and their deeply held views.

That makes sense or does it?

Do we respect the religious suicide bombers with their VERY deeply held views because they will die for their beliefs and don't care how many others they kill in the process. Should we respect all the various Christian Churches who are mostly against homosexual acts and indeed one main stream church has it they are disordered and evil and yet nobody calls on them to remove such homophobic language?

It seems that all the Abrahamic faiths believe that God created Adam and Eve as we are now and yet many claim they also believe in evolution which obviously is 180 degrees different? The Church calls us all sinners based on the fall of Adam in the Garden of Eden and so the Christian Church says that as a result we have to believe that God sent his only Son to die on the cross as the ONLY way to satisfy God and of course the alternative is hell fire to unbelievers etc.

Now folks. Should these views be respected or not? Should this be taught to young minds as God's truth and God's word or not? All these faiths have a terrible history of repression and worse all based on deeply held beliefs. Now of course its true that most believers are good people and do very good works and some will claim they do that because of their faith and of course we know that good and bad deeds are carried out by the religious and NON religious but that is not my question. Its, should things we almost certainly know is false...Lies is too strong a word? be taught as truth or not and anyway,the fact that most believers are more tolerant and don't really live by their holy text anymore eg Mosaic Laws, what is stopping a religious revival one day when they all want to revert back to their founding text?

Religious zealots and suicide bombers claim they are the true believers of the word and that the others are not which rather makes the point that unless these religious text are shown to be the work of men and not God, then nothing will change? I would suggest that the simple reason secular Governments won't take it on is based purely on numbers and of fear as Hitchens once said when the Cartoons of Muhammad were not reproduced by the media in the USA.

So the answer is that we carry on allowing these faiths to 'teach' their religious text, especially to children, KNOWING it is false because of the powerful religious lobby and we are almost forced to respect their 'deeply held' views or somebody takes a stand and tells the truth?

I am 72 now and was a born again Christian for over 50 years and most Christians I have known are intolerant, unhappy, miserable and wouldn't lift a hand to help anyone but that is just my experience. And I have become less tolerant of religion as the years have gone by and think truth is far more important to teach kids than hiding behind religious myths that are 'deeply held' as being the same thing. They are not!

[Stonge]

Why were you a born again Christian for over 50 years?

[seekingbalance]

Clariman has asked that I try and tone down my thoughts when discussing religious faiths and because so many people deeply believe in their religious books that we respect their faith and by implication their religious text and their deeply held views.

There you go, exactly as I said in another post - atheists are fair game to the religious but atheists must not hurt the feelings of deeply religious people.

Not fair.

SB

[beeswax]

Why were you a born again Christian for over 50 years?

Good question!

It was because I never gave it much thought and hardly read the bible. I was like most believers and just went along to Church believing what was preached from the pulpit and it was only when I had some time to study what it was that I actually believed.

I'm ashamed it took so long!

Its probably true that most go to meet up with other like minded others ie like a social club. The sermons in one ear and out the other but there are some great hymns and music around which I can still admire.

But then I was always a bit of a rebel...and so maybe just a matter of time. I was so into it one time, I asked my late Mother to ask Jesus to forgive her sins so that she could go to heaven. I'm pretty disgusted now to think I did that based on a myth or lie that God is so good, so loving and so just that he condemned the WHOLE human race for one man's disobedience ie Adam that we KNOW didn't exist. It was ALL myth.

But this is what we can do when we are brainwashed to do things we would otherwise not do...Would suicide bombers do what they do if they were not avid believers?

[Clariman]

Clariman has asked that I try and tone down my thoughts when discussing religious faiths and because so many people deeply believe in their religious books that we respect their faith and by implication their religious text and their deeply held views.

There you go, exactly as I said in another post - atheists are fair game to the religious but atheists must not hurt the feelings of deeply religious people.

Not fair.

SB

SB, I am an atheist, so you are misinterpreting my request for tolerance and respect. My request cuts both ways. Meaningful dialogue between theists and atheists - or between those of different faiths - can only happen if there is some mutual respect.

Clariman

[Clariman]

Why were you a born again Christian for over 50 years?

Good question!

It was because I never gave it much thought and hardly read the bible. I was like most believers and just went along to Church believing what was preached from the pulpit and it was only when I had some time to study what it was that I actually believed.

I'm ashamed it took so long!

Its probably true that most go to meet up with other like minded others ie like a social club. The sermons in one ear and out the other but there are some great hymns and music around which I can still admire.

But then I was always a bit of a rebel...and so maybe just a matter of time. I was so into it one time, I asked my late Mother to ask Jesus to forgive her sins so that she could go to heaven. I'm pretty disgusted now to think I did that based on a myth or lie that God is so good, so loving and so just that he condemned the WHOLE human race for one man's disobedience ie Adam that we KNOW didn't exist. It was ALL myth.

But this is what we can do when we are brainwashed to do things we would otherwise not do...Would suicide bombers do what they do if they were not avid believers?

That's a very interesting perspective. Many thanks for sharing and I can understand where you are coming from. However, I pose a question to you. You talk with regret that you had such a firm belief and you asked your mother to ask Jesus for forgiveness. Is that any different from berating those who believe now, since you have changed your mind?

Wouldn't it have been better to respect non-believers' views back then - and to respect believer's views today? Then there would be no need for regret.

Cheers
Clariman

[UncleEbenezer]

Do we respect the religious suicide bombers

I believe the usual approach is to have your cake and eat it. The biblical suicide bomber Samson was a hero backed by God, but his modern counterparts are brainwashed terrorists.

The relationship of "brainwashed" to "religious" left as an exercise for the reader.

[Stonge]

Beeswax, thank you for your reply.

I would say (no disrespect whatever intended) that your belief - for most of your life - was childish and that you hadn't really examined your belief.

(I would say that this also applies to many who believe themselves 'atheists'.)

[beeswax]

Why were you a born again Christian for over 50 years?

Good question!

It was because I never gave it much thought and hardly read the bible. I was like most believers and just went along to Church believing what was preached from the pulpit and it was only when I had some time to study what it was that I actually believed.

I'm ashamed it took so long!

Its probably true that most go to meet up with other like minded others ie like a social club. The sermons in one ear and out the other but there are some great hymns and music around which I can still admire.

But then I was always a bit of a rebel...and so maybe just a matter of time. I was so into it one time, I asked my late Mother to ask Jesus to forgive her sins so that she could go to heaven. I'm pretty disgusted now to think I did that based on a myth or lie that God is so good, so loving and so just that he condemned the WHOLE human race for one man's disobedience ie Adam that we KNOW didn't exist. It was ALL myth.

But this is what we can do when we are brainwashed to do things we would otherwise not do...Would suicide bombers do what they do if they were not avid believers?

That's a very interesting perspective. Many thanks for sharing and I can understand where you are coming from. However, I pose a question to you. You talk with regret that you had such a firm belief and you asked your mother to ask Jesus for forgiveness. Is that any different from berating those who believe now, since you have changed your mind?

Wouldn't it have been better to respect non-believers' views back then - and to respect believer's views today? Then there would be no need for regret.

Cheers
Clariman

Hi Clariman,

Just to add my thanks for your time and effort in setting up this site to enable us to discuss many topics and seems to be doing well.

Again you ask a fair question and have no answer to it really in that I probably took offence at many things said and done by non believers but its a paradox that the more believers are taken to task the more they like it because that is what the bible says to expect in the 'last days' which is another subject entirely. So I'm not at all sure they will take offence in that sense? The word lies is probably not the word to use and myth and legend sounds so much better!

My wife is still a Christian even though she admits that many things in the bible are a 'mystery' and don't make sense and I do respect her views because they are sincere and longstanding since she was a girl at Sunday School. It also makes life a bit easier! We do discuss things though, which is good. The other thing is that very few online sites allow atheists and believers to mix because it always ends up as bad tempered and ill mannered and I take your point that this forum is being tried to try and get a decent dialogue going but you know. I'm not sure it can do that. The TMF Christian Fools died a death for the same reasons. They don't mix and more importantly, they don't want to either and so prefer to post to each other with entrenched views of traditional beliefs and so it will be interesting to see how this sub forum develops. Hamzah got fed up as people used to direct all their wrath his way because he was the only Muslim around the site and so stopped engaging and possibly would do the same thing here? But I did ask him many times not to post OTHER muslim links to things but what HE thought about what and why he believed as he did and not question WHY?

Also we get so few Muslims and Jews posting on the same site as per the TMF that it gets one or two Christians and one Muslim getting hammered the whole time by the atheists etc.

I am concerned about what is true and what is false and what is being taught to children by the religious leaders and parents with so few people in authority questioning that based on what you say ie respect and tolerance but we can also see where that can lead as well. I suppose me having been there and done that allows me a different perspective and can't help ranting sometimes based more on impatience that how can Christians possibly believe that God wants a human sacrifice to satisfy his vengeance when humans don't which makes the latter more loving and more forgiving than God? But then I believed what they did without question and so should my views have been respected when I was a believer? You know....I truly think now they should not have been. Truth, reason and logic matters more...

ATB

Mike

[beeswax]

BTW...I think I have said that even so, I'm not an Atheist but a Diest which is someone who believes in a 'Creator' Or God if you like which leads to many other questions where the late Christopher Hitchens used to say and have seen many of his online debates with Christians which is well worth watching even now and he said that Deism although makes more sense than the claims made in the bible that we have all our work ahead of us and that is true too..

No doubt this will be discussed at some stage too..

[beeswax]

Sorry I meant to add that now I believe that IF there is a Judgement where everyone will stand before God for their actions in this life, then its MY belief that the good need not fear that at all no matter what faith or non faith they had. OTOH the truly evil people will get their just deserts...So in that sense the Creator IS the God of all and no favourites and why would there be and need to be..

But the fact is that nobody knows whether that will happen or where we all end up. Nobody has ever come back to tell us, not even Jesus as he promised back in the first century. I never believed in Paul's resurrection of the body anyhow which again is another subject entirely.

[jackdaww]

Why were you a born again Christian for over 50 years?

Good question!

It was because I never gave it much thought and hardly read the bible.

Cheers
Clariman

===============================

why did you then start to read the bible?

.

[beeswax]

Good question!

It was because I never gave it much thought and hardly read the bible.

Cheers
Clariman

===============================

why did you then start to read the bible?

.

Mind your own business!

No, its all a question of time and interest in the subject and when I started to try and get to grips with the history and although I was never mainstream and went to different non conformist churches over the years it was never intended to severe my former Christian beliefs but that is exactly how it turned out. The more I read and studied, and applied reason and logic to it, the more ridiculous the stuff became. I even out of interest visited most of my local Christian Churches (For their Sunday Service) of all denominations ie around a dozen or so and that included the Mormon LDS Church as well. It was a sort of project. I found the worst ones to be the Catholic and Anglican Church as being completely lifeless and drab and based solely on ritual like the Mass etc. Apart from the only Catholic Church which was full the others were mostly empty with just a few Pensioners attending. The only thriving one was the usual happy clappy Pentecostal Churches where they all danced around with the music. It was fun in some respects and more to my liking as I love all kinds of music including lots of Christian songs and why the Salvation Army Band was fun to go to and listen to for a couple of years. I now regularly sing and play all kinds of music in my MIL's Nursing home and the one she was at before and when I see the sad state of the dementia residents in these places, my heart and soul goes out to them and say to myself, how could God ever think of sending them to another hell? It may sound odd but I have come to love them all because of their infirmity and vulnerability and not one wants to be in there. I get a real kick out of seeing them smile and sing along when they can. I often think that Christians and others instead of going to Church and the Synagogue or Mosque ought to go to these care homes and just hold the residents hands instead. Its the personal touch they need which the magnificent hard working carers don't have time to do. I would hope that God would agree with that as well. I tend to think Jesus would have approved and it annoys me like hell that Muslims are killing innocent people all around the place and want to destroy things, when they would be better served THINKING what and why they believe the things they do that causes them to do these atrocities?

Its a long story but that's enough for now.

[seekingbalance]

Clariman has asked that I try and tone down my thoughts when discussing religious faiths and because so many people deeply believe in their religious books that we respect their faith and by implication their religious text and their deeply held views.

....

SB, I am an atheist, so you are misinterpreting my request for tolerance and respect. My request cuts both ways. Meaningful dialogue between theists and atheists - or between those of different faiths - can only happen if there is some mutual respect.

Clariman

Clariman, that is good to hear, and of course the idea should always be to be civil and respectful. As beeswax alludes in another posts above, though, it is easy to say, but when "meaningful dialogue" starts, in my experience it almost always ends up with insults and offence being taken, usually by the people with the deeply held views, based, to be fair, on the difficulty for the atheists to select appropriate language in the dialogue that will not offend. This, I feel has already been seen in the other main thread in this forum, for no obvious reasons I can see.

It is very difficult not to offend when offence is so easily taken. It is also difficult to have dialogue if one of the parties does not engage, merely falling back on tropes and dogma, and the others are constantly worried about being told off for offending.

All I ask is that if this forum is to exist and meaningful dialogue is to be allowed to develop that it is not censored too readily.

Cheers

SB

[jackdaww]

Cheers
Clariman

===============================

why did you then start to read the bible?

.

. I now regularly sing and play all kinds of music in my MIL's Nursing home and the one she was at before and when I see the sad state of the dementia residents in these places, my heart and soul goes out to them and say to myself, how could God ever think of sending them to another hell?

=====================

thanks

ive just started a dementia thread in comfort cafe - as there is so much of it about.

you may like to post something there.

[RowdyReptile]

Clariman has asked that I try and tone down my thoughts when discussing religious faiths and because so many people deeply believe in their religious books that we respect their faith and by implication their religious text and their deeply held views.

Actually, it makes perfect sense if you understand a boards with rules. I am willing to bet they are totally serious about it.

I think what the people that built this board might want to do is go beyond the obvious differences, and try to find common ground. For goodness sake, Clariman created a thread that just wanted to see if there can be unity amongst religions. That might be a not so subtle hint there. Just my opinion though. You know...take the best of that board, but weed out the problems. As a believer, my critical thinking skills are lacking..or so I am told.

I am 72 now and was a born again Christian for over 50 years and most Christians I have known are intolerant, unhappy, miserable and wouldn't lift a hand to help anyone but that is just my experience.

Well damn, if that is your experience, I now understand your problem with Christianity. I mean holy hell. Jeebers man.

RR

[RowdyReptile]

Clariman has asked that I try and tone down my thoughts when discussing religious faiths and because so many people deeply believe in their religious books that we respect their faith and by implication their religious text and their deeply held views.

There you go, exactly as I said in another post - atheists are fair game to the religious but atheists must not hurt the feelings of deeply religious people.

Not fair.

SB

Well, you can try to hurt my wittle feewings all you want.



I find this an odd post. Perhaps I missed something, but I seem to be the only believer here, and I am damn sure I haven't insulted anyone or their little feelings.

RR

[RowdyReptile]

SB, I am an atheist, so you are misinterpreting my request for tolerance and respect. My request cuts both ways. Meaningful dialogue between theists and atheists - or between those of different faiths - can only happen if there is some mutual respect.

Clariman

Ding ding. I respect the atheist and their beliefs. It is sound, reasonable and logical. My faith is not, but then again, sometimes "sound", "reasonable" and "logical" at times has been dead wrong.

To be honest with you, I don't care whether you respect me or not, or my beliefs. You are going to have to figure out how to deal with people like me in the practical world.

I imagine you will find me far more reasonable than many "believers".

RR

[RowdyReptile]

Oh the Irony, beeswax.

In another thread you wondered if I could be civil, but at the start of this thread, you admitted to being asked to tone it down a bit.

I have not, to date, received such a request from a moderator.

Yes, indeed, we will see who the true civil ones are. I look forward to every syllable.

RR

[hamzahf]

Clariman, that is good to hear, and of course the idea should always be to be civil and respectful. As beeswax alludes in another posts above, though, it is easy to say, but when "meaningful dialogue" starts, in my experience it almost always ends up with insults and offence being taken, usually by the people with the deeply held views, based, to be fair, on the difficulty for the atheists to select appropriate language in the dialogue that will not offend. This, I feel has already been seen in the other main thread in this forum, for no obvious reasons I can see.

Must this become a battle of wills on every topic? As far as I can discern there are only a couple of active religionists regularly posting on this board, each having a rather more nuanced take on their faith than is credited by those non-religionists wishing to make the same old point about religious dogma and repression.

I am really far more concerned by the repressive direction of politics at the moment than reacting to the same old same old rhetoric in atheist-religionist dialogue. I can't speak for Rowdy Reptile, but I'm not interested to engage in stale old arguments on this new forum. If that means just chipping into discussions on essentially humanist or secular arguments that will be fine and interesting for me.

Religious believers are good unless they are bad. Atheists are diverse in their views and open-minded unless they are not. I have either caused offence or not. I look forward to a different take on 'The Meaning of Life".

Regards
Hamzah

PS In passing, does the board software set a limit on the number of nested quotes? The post I am replying to only offered me the latest response even though several quotes were included. All in favour if it does as I have noticed injudicious quoting without trimming is making some responses unwieldy.