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The bible-Is it true?

Religion and Philosophy
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we are introducing this on a trial basis and that respect for other's views is important e.g. phrases like "your imaginary friend" or "you will go to hell" are not appropriate
RowdyReptile
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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#20180

Postby RowdyReptile » January 5th, 2017, 12:38 am

hamzahf wrote:

Intolerance from all quarters is the problem we face nowadays. We fleetingly aspired to a global mentality and outlook, but unfortunately the barriers are starting to be erected again. Religion is one of the factors that could have broken down the barriers, but we are now turning it around to signify difference rather than common ground. Such a pity.

Regards
Hamzah


Hamzahf makes another excellent point and I will reiterate part of his statement. It is Intolerance from ALL quarters that is the problem we face. When views have to be made mandatory or have to use force via a religious entity and/or the police powers of government to expand, then you know it is not right. WE know, believer or not, that this isn't right. I hope we can agree on this anyway.

RR

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#20185

Postby beeswax » January 5th, 2017, 1:31 am

RowdyReptile wrote:
hamzahf wrote:

Intolerance from all quarters is the problem we face nowadays. We fleetingly aspired to a global mentality and outlook, but unfortunately the barriers are starting to be erected again. Religion is one of the factors that could have broken down the barriers, but we are now turning it around to signify difference rather than common ground. Such a pity.

Regards
Hamzah


Hamzahf makes another excellent point and I will reiterate part of his statement. It is Intolerance from ALL quarters that is the problem we face. When views have to be made mandatory or have to use force via a religious entity and/or the police powers of government to expand, then you know it is not right. WE know, believer or not, that this isn't right. I hope we can agree on this anyway.

RR


I don't see intolerance from ALL quarters at all. Its mostly the religious that are intolerant.Re the Christian Church with its blanket opposition to homosexuals and women. Ditto Islam where the world is going to hell in handcart unless its stopped and one thing is for sure. Islam has THE global ambition to be the dominant and ONLY religious faith in the world. They will be quite happy the progress they have made since they were a small insignificant band in Arabia. If people are thinking of the EU as being the precursor of a new world order...Well that's another mess they have created as peoples don't want to be corralled into a political union controlled from the centre. How many examples do they need where this has been tried and failed?

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#20189

Postby tournesol » January 5th, 2017, 1:44 am

The question posed here "is the bible true?" seems to beg a rather big precursor question.

Why is it only the holy book of the abrahamic traditions that is being singled out for consideration? Why not the sacred texts of the ancient egyptians or the greeks or romans or assyrians or norsemen? Why not the hindu vedas? Why not the unwritten oral traditions of the indigenous australians? What about the religions of the Incas or the peoples of China or Korea?

Surely you cannot reasonably focus the question on just one book/tradition? If you do then you are pre-selecting your answer. You are claiming special status before you even consider the question. If god could have spoken to the ancient inhabitants of the middle east, then clearly he could have done the same thing to those living elsewhere. If he spoke to the Israelites then perhaps he also spoke to the Egyptians and did so much earlier to boot.

I never hear anyone pondering the eternal truth of the religions practised by Tutankhamun or by Erik Blood Axe or Atahualpa. Nobody believes those religions to be true or to have ever been true. Who thinks that Thor and Wodin and Faffnir really exist/existed? Nobody.

Religious people do not by and large believe that religion in general is true or that religious texts are true. They believe that the large majority of religions and religious texts are false with the sole exception of the flavour they have chosen for themselves. So even (or should that be especially?) religious people find the claims of other religions to be incredible/unfeasible.

There is a real paradox here. Lets say for argument's sake that there have been 1000 religions in the past 10,000 years. Devout followers of any religion believe that 999 of these were false and just 1 was/is true. The only difference between the followers of religion A and religion B is which one is the odd one out. Religious people reject the 999 religions practised elsewhere and elsewhen but claim special status for the religion that happens to be active in their own time and place. That seems to me to be extremely solipsistic. Atheists agree with religious people about the 999 which are false. The only point of difference is that atheists are consistent across the board. They do not exempt the religion of their own culture.

So can I reframe the question? Would it not be better to ask - "religious texts of all descriptions - are they true? "

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#20190

Postby beeswax » January 5th, 2017, 1:45 am

One of the main reasons the government is having to pass laws to intrude on every click we make on the internet is predominately because of Islamic terrorism and re airport and other security measures that have cost billions and all they want to do is destroy things. The USA built a great country in 200 years and what has the Arab nations created in that same period or even ten times that?

I would have no problem at all with religion if it stuck to peace and goodwill towards ALL men and women across the world and had no ambition to spread itself by fear and has to adopt all the human and equal rights that secular countries have come to know by right. But then they would have to abandon lots of ancient religious text and guidance in the process and they ain't going to do that ever imo anyway..

It is a FACT that IF these religious texts were written today the writers would be prosecuted and so why are they tolerated? Because most believers don't actually live in accordance with them eg Mosaic Law? So get them amended and revised. What is so difficult? Ah its where we came in on this OP.....Its God's word and thus cannot be!

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#20191

Postby beeswax » January 5th, 2017, 1:59 am

tournesol wrote:The question posed here "is the bible true?" seems to beg a rather big precursor question.

Why is it only the holy book of the abrahamic traditions that is being singled out for consideration? Why not the sacred texts of the ancient egyptians or the greeks or romans or assyrians or norsemen? Why not the hindu vedas? Why not the unwritten oral traditions of the indigenous australians? What about the religions of the Incas or the peoples of China or Korea?

So can I reframe the question? Would it not be better to ask - "religious texts of all descriptions - are they true? "


Because most of them have died out and the predominant one is the Abrahamic one in Western Civilisation. If we lived in China or India or some remote country we could be asking the very same questions..

So yes the question could have been asked that way..

I think you make an excellent point as why God just chose a couple of tribes in the least educated part of the world and not the more educated parts...I suspect the answer is he didn't and like all ignorant pagan tribes have since the year dot, they made it all up...Its one gripe of mine why Jesus didn't get on a boat somewhere further afield to preach his sermons and not hang around a place where he knew his life was at risk. But then the Gentiles conveniently forget what is in their own NT Gospels where Jesus said he came only to save the lost sheep of Israel. Unless that was made up, why then would he change his mind later on or did the Gentiles make the Great Commission up? I would definitely say yes they did!

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#20195

Postby RowdyReptile » January 5th, 2017, 2:37 am

beeswax wrote:
I don't see intolerance from ALL quarters at all. Its mostly the religious that are intolerant.Re the Christian Church with its blanket opposition to homosexuals and women. Ditto Islam where the world is going to hell in handcart unless its stopped and one thing is for sure. Islam has THE global ambition to be the dominant and ONLY religious faith in the world. They will be quite happy the progress they have made since they were a small insignificant band in Arabia. If people are thinking of the EU as being the precursor of a new world order...Well that's another mess they have created as peoples don't want to be corralled into a political union controlled from the centre. How many examples do they need where this has been tried and failed?


First, beeswax, I am glad you have decided to stick around. This place would get way dull if you left.

But, if you truly think it is only those of faith that are intolerant, then I suggest you get out more. However, the point is the intolerance, or that which you see, in those of faith.

I am a person of faith, and have no issue with women. I married one. :mrgreen: I also really have no problem with those of same sex attraction. They should have every secular right I have, and I would oppose any that would take that away. I only ask in return that you don't try to change the theology of my church to meet your secular norms. Seems fair to me.

As far as Islam goes, we have an excellent spokesperson for that faith posting. He is obviously intelligent.

I know you have a past problem with people of faith, but why don't you try to just narrow it down to the people of faith posting here. If we cannot make peace here, it is unlikely it can be done globally. You will find me amazingly liberal in many ways. Of course, that is classic liberalism. If you are reasonable with me, I will be more than reasonable with you. IN fact, you will find I agree with many your criticisms of the church.

Regards,

Double R

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#20234

Postby beeswax » January 5th, 2017, 9:46 am

RowdyReptile wrote:
beeswax wrote:
I don't see intolerance from ALL quarters at all. Its mostly the religious that are intolerant.Re the Christian Church with its blanket opposition to homosexuals and women. Ditto Islam where the world is going to hell in handcart unless its stopped and one thing is for sure. Islam has THE global ambition to be the dominant and ONLY religious faith in the world. They will be quite happy the progress they have made since they were a small insignificant band in Arabia. If people are thinking of the EU as being the precursor of a new world order...Well that's another mess they have created as peoples don't want to be corralled into a political union controlled from the centre. How many examples do they need where this has been tried and failed?


First, beeswax, I am glad you have decided to stick around. This place would get way dull if you left.

But, if you truly think it is only those of faith that are intolerant, then I suggest you get out more. However, the point is the intolerance, or that which you see, in those of faith.

I am a person of faith, and have no issue with women. I married one. :mrgreen: I also really have no problem with those of same sex attraction. They should have every secular right I have, and I would oppose any that would take that away. I only ask in return that you don't try to change the theology of my church to meet your secular norms. Seems fair to me.

As far as Islam goes, we have an excellent spokesperson for that faith posting. He is obviously intelligent.

I know you have a past problem with people of faith, but why don't you try to just narrow it down to the people of faith posting here. If we cannot make peace here, it is unlikely it can be done globally. You will find me amazingly liberal in many ways. Of course, that is classic liberalism. If you are reasonable with me, I will be more than reasonable with you. IN fact, you will find I agree with many your criticisms of the church.

Regards,

Double R


RR, I didn't say its 'only' those of faith that are i tolerant but we know people are scared of what religious extremists are doing to them and its because its in their founding text which I want revising so that eventually the cruel parts won't be in there. Because if not what is stopping religious fundamentalist revivals and we know Israel won't allow the Palestinians to have the same rights as they have and again all because of the history. It all wants sorting out. With regard to the politics or government you seem to have great intolerance for..;) People get a choice in democracies and so we get governments we all deserve. Trump has upset the cosy establishment because the people got fed up but lets see if he delivers but like Brexit the US vote was split down the middle and so peace and politics will be difficult to achieve.

I say this. I have no problem with anyone posting here as we are all reasonable thinking people and I guess I could take the most radical religious or political zealot out to the pub and settle our differences and agree there are some better ways for religion and politics to be conducted. I could even have persuaded Jesus that some of his teachings were bizarre like on divorce and have caused many problems and even pacifism is only for the birds when we know that humans are capable of very foul deeds and need stopping.

There is only one problem with you disagreeing with many things of your church and that is you really should not be a member and tell them at every opportunity where they are wrong. I would not join ANY church where I had even basic differences with them, even the Salvation Army that does a lot of good socially and locally. I am not a tea total but am not a drinker of beer, spirits or wine I just don't like the stuff. But their stance on that is also wrong and not appropriate today and especially when its not bible teaching by Jesus anyhow. More wine at the marriage feast! Last supper wine? Indeed every supper wine! I think religious people should be able and are able to think for themselves a lot more than they do and change the rules accordingly. Of course most religious people say that is wrong and leads to promiscuity and sex orgies and gay marriage and what not...Seems Moses saw that too when he came down with his tablets of stone to see all that and shows nothing has really changed, its just under the surface.

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#20315

Postby tournesol » January 5th, 2017, 12:49 pm

Beeswax

You justify the way the question is framed by saying that most other religions have "died out". I'm not sure exactly why the longevity of a religion should be seen as an indication of its basic truthfullness. The religion of the ancient Egyptians lasted for considerably longer than the 2000 years of christianity. But for the sake of discussion I'm ready to overlook that question and revisit my point about the way the question is framed.Is

Let's reframe it again but focus it according to the longevity of the different religions.

Is Hinduism true? It's been around much longer than Christianity and considerably longer than Judaism. It has not been displaced by any of the younger religions. The fact that it has survived much longer than other major religions without being superseded is compelling. It still has a billion followers. My sense is that its followers are generally more devout and less sceptical than followers of some other religions such as Christianity. I bring that up because
Christianity is often reported as having over 2 billion followers. I wonder how many of those are real believers. How many people are devout in their Christianity? I'd say a minority of those who self categorise as Christian.

So should we be asking whether the Vedas and the Upanishad are true? Or should we consider the core beliefs of Hinduism? Is re-incarnation true? Does the elephant headed god Ganesh really exist? Are cows sacred? Do Brahma and Shiva and Kali exist?

Most of the people I know who are interested in discussing the Bible and Christianity would not entertain for a moment the possibility that Hinduism is true. They would dismiss it as a cultural artefact, a relic from a bygone age, obviously infeasible as an explanation of the universe.

Why would anyone think it right/reasonable/intellectually honest to dismiss the ancient religious beliefs of a billion people but take seriously the less ancient religious beliefs of Christians?

We could of course do a similar thing with Buddhism, Zoroastrianism, Jainism, Confucianism………

If you write all these off as obviously "untrue" then what can you possibly say to the atheist who says that he agrees with you but thinks you are not going quite far enough and would add one more to your list of untrue religions?

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#20324

Postby tournesol » January 5th, 2017, 1:15 pm

PS
Meant to say that the truthfullness of a belief cannot possibly depend on its longevity. Christianity was young once - that could not provide any indication of its truthfullness. It was as true a thousand years ago as it will be in another thousand years from now. (or untrue)

In similar vein, the number of believers cannot possibly be taken as evidence of truth. Christianity was once a very small movement. 2000 years ago its truth could not be inferred from its demographics.

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#20325

Postby beeswax » January 5th, 2017, 1:19 pm

Hi tournesol,

I don't disagree with the points you make. because the readers of this board would be thinking in terms of the Abrahamic religions, is why I used the OP but I could have mentioned the Quran too but seems as though most of that was copied as was the Mormon bible. If you want to start a new thread to include all the others, that's fine too.

I especially agree with your point about the billion Christians and how many are active one with a church weekly attendance and even adult baptism and know that the precise doctrines of the NT? Based on my small area and all the churches I have gone to, they are almost empty but the Catholic Church does have a huge following and probably are the greatest number and most active. Islam is different as they start their indoctrinations at birth and why they will inevitably become the largest one eventually, which is their goal. I've not studied the other world religions and it would be interesting and enlightening to do so..I especially like the idea the Egyptians had with their afterlife concept and how advanced they were compared with the rest of the world. I'm still amazed with the golden mask of King Tut and how old that is..

I'm surprised that Western rich people haven't embraced that religion as most would love to have their money buried with them on the hope it remains with them in the next life! Maybe that's the only TRUE one? ;)

I think that demographics are important when considering the knowledge and education of the people in the area where ignorance is more likely to result in pagan Gods and animal and human sacrifices to those Gods. People do say that the more education results in more atheism and why religious beliefs are on the increase in areas that are still way behind on that score, like Africa.

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#20510

Postby tournesol » January 5th, 2017, 8:00 pm

Hi Beeswax

I think that the Catholic church has nothing to learn from Islam about indoctrination/brain washing from birth.

I was born into a family of devout Catholics. My primary school was run by nuns. My secondary school was run by the De La Salle Brotherhood. "Angela's Ashes" strikes me as an idealised, soft focus, flattering account of the experiences I had.

I became a committed atheist around the age of 8 or 9.

I was the first and only boy in my primary school to refuse to serve as an altar boy. Every week for 2 years I was punished for that refusal.

I see no difference whatever between different religions in terms of their inherent truth. In my opinion, They are all artefacts and are all reflections of the cultures/societies which gave rise to them. Truth simply does not come into it.

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#20536

Postby beeswax » January 5th, 2017, 8:56 pm

tournesol wrote:Hi Beeswax

I think that the Catholic church has nothing to learn from Islam about indoctrination/brain washing from birth.

I was born into a family of devout Catholics. My primary school was run by nuns. My secondary school was run by the De La Salle Brotherhood. "Angela's Ashes" strikes me as an idealised, soft focus, flattering account of the experiences I had.

I became a committed atheist around the age of 8 or 9.

I was the first and only boy in my primary school to refuse to serve as an altar boy. Every week for 2 years I was punished for that refusal.

I see no difference whatever between different religions in terms of their inherent truth. In my opinion, They are all artefacts and are all reflections of the cultures/societies which gave rise to them. Truth simply does not come into it.


Wow! Well done for having that opinion at that age...I agree again with your last paragraph..

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#20984

Postby RowdyReptile » January 7th, 2017, 6:23 pm

beeswax wrote:
RR, I didn't say its 'only' those of faith that are i tolerant but we know people are scared of what religious extremists are doing to them and its because its in their founding text which I want revising so that eventually the cruel parts won't be in there. Because if not what is stopping religious fundamentalist revivals and we know Israel won't allow the Palestinians to have the same rights as they have and again all because of the history. It all wants sorting out. With regard to the politics or government you seem to have great intolerance for..;) People get a choice in democracies and so we get governments we all deserve. Trump has upset the cosy establishment because the people got fed up but lets see if he delivers but like Brexit the US vote was split down the middle and so peace and politics will be difficult to achieve.


Thanks for that, beeswax. One the secular side, our "choices" in our democratic process don't seem to be much of a choice at all. I am having some trouble seeing any difference between the R's and D's in the US when it comes to having any principle. Neither seem to have any, imho.

beeswax wrote:I say this. I have no problem with anyone posting here as we are all reasonable thinking people and I guess I could take the most radical religious or political zealot out to the pub and settle our differences and agree there are some better ways for religion and politics to be conducted. I could even have persuaded Jesus that some of his teachings were bizarre like on divorce and have caused many problems and even pacifism is only for the birds when we know that humans are capable of very foul deeds and need stopping.


Well, if you could have talked Jesus out of his teachings and ideas, that is indeed impressive. Heck, even Lucifer couldn't do that. ;)

beeswax wrote:There is only one problem with you disagreeing with many things of your church and that is you really should not be a member and tell them at every opportunity where they are wrong.


I didn't say I disagreed with the theology, I simply don't think others should have to live under that theology if they do not wish. If they only allowed members that were "perfect", then there would be no members. The church will not solemnize a same sex marriage, but that doesn't mean it should be the law of the land for everyone, for instance. We should not be in the business of telling people outside the church how to run their private lives as a matter of law. We have enough issues with members trying, myself included. I guess I can separate the two, and not force the secular world to live by those standards, which are high, and in return ask the secular world not to change the theology to meet their norms. Live and let live I guess.

RR

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#21022

Postby beeswax » January 7th, 2017, 9:26 pm

RR...Good reply and I know you like musical links and arguably the most famous musician in the whole world who just happened to be an American citizen, sang this and its relevant to one of your replies above..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emjLXdsj6xA

I'm the Devil in disguise don't you know, eternally wise until him above says so...;)

The more serious point is that as a member you SHOULD argue with their philosophy and doctrines if that is contrary to most people's idea of love and compassion AND tolerance and equal rights which were hard won and cost a lot of blood..

I told the second highest member of the Salvation Army in the world (when he visited our local church) that they were wrong on prohibition (drink/booze) and on baptism and the Eucharist, which they don't have and although I understood why that was, sometimes somethings need saying and I would tell every church leader I could their stance on homosexuality, marriage and divorce is wrong as the bible is wrong and any other religious text written by ignorant men too..

You believe in Jesus dying for ours sins yet disbelieve in original sins. How so?

You believe in a literal Garden of Eden and God creating Adam and Eve as we are now. Despite ALL the scientific evidence of evolution. How so?

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#21048

Postby Stonge » January 7th, 2017, 11:02 pm

Religion is the single biggest threat to humanity.

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#21072

Postby beeswax » January 8th, 2017, 1:55 am

Stonge wrote:Religion is the single biggest threat to humanity.


It would be interesting to know the stats as how many have died due to religion over the last 2000 years and how many from secular conflicts?

Some argue that WW2 was a secular conflict but it did involve a desire to eliminate all the Jews from the planet and so there was a religious element to that...Also being in the wrong tribe has been catastrophic too...particularly in Russia, Sudan and other parts of Africa..

I think the biggest threat to humanity is 'man' but when they are religious zealots around with the possible use of Nuclear weapons and they think they are doing God's work by eliminating the West, then you are right to point that out...Some think Putin would do the same thing though if pressed...

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#21310

Postby RowdyReptile » January 8th, 2017, 7:07 pm

beeswax wrote:RR...Good reply and I know you like musical links and arguably the most famous musician in the whole world who just happened to be an American citizen, sang this and its relevant to one of your replies above..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=emjLXdsj6xA

I'm the Devil in disguise don't you know, eternally wise until him above says so...;)


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0YAcoDkj_dI

beeswax wrote:The more serious point is that as a member you SHOULD argue with their philosophy and doctrines if that is contrary to most people's idea of love and compassion AND tolerance and equal rights which were hard won and cost a lot of blood..


I don't think the theology of any church should be subjected to the whims of majority rule of the secular world at all. Perhaps I am mistaking your meaning here.

beeswax wrote:You believe in Jesus dying for ours sins yet disbelieve in original sins. How so?


My church believes that we will be punished for our own sins, and not for Adam's fall. We believe the events in the garden went as planned. So, therefore, the need for Christ is still present, but not because of the actions of Adam, which were necessary in a way. As far as science goes, BYU teaches Darwinism in its Biology classes...in spades. We touched on this briefly back at TMF Uk, and I even linked to their curriculum.

A lot of people talk about believing in freedom of speech, religion and equal rights for all, but an alarmingly high number, at least in the US be they on the left or right, then balk at views, speech and actions when they disagree with their views. They like diversity, until you try to be diverse. That is a problem with the religious as well, but I don't think I have that problem, and I don't think the posters here have that issue either.

RR

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#21337

Postby DiamondEcho » January 8th, 2017, 9:19 pm

RowdyReptile wrote:My church believes that we will be punished for our own sins, and not for Adam's fall. We believe the events in the garden went as planned.


You talk about 'make believe' RR, but I find it most odd an intelligent Western adult can believe in things that didn't exist: Adam + Eve, and the Garden of Eden. Do you believe either or both are the literal truth, or is it 'accepted truth', 'faith', or some parallel similar form? [genuinely/respectfully curious].

I bother mentioning this since I enjoy your posts; but the forays into 'Christian fundamentalism' [er, to me ;)] seem so alien.

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#21363

Postby beeswax » January 8th, 2017, 11:18 pm

RR will no doubt answer himself but I do know that most Christian Churches now have given up on this point because of all the evidence we have of evolution and so God could not have created us as we are now around 6000 years ago...However, this means they must accept there could not have been a talking snake or God having a conversation with Adam or that the fall of mankind due to Adam's disobedience and that all puts the Kybosh on the Christian Church's theology and reason to exist and possibly the Jewish and Muslims beliefs too but they seem to have gone quiet on this question....and so what the Christian Church Leadership has now done is to say that Genesis and the Garden was an allegory and a special theological truth and it was and is representative of man's innermost desire to sin and therefore to disobey God and so we ALL still need redemption via Jesus for him to accept us into heaven. Neat hey!

So Genesis is not actually true where God condemns anyone but they think that we still need a Saviour??

I very much doubt whether they believe anything they say but the alternative is unemployed Popes, Pastors and Priests...

Obviously they keep quiet about St Paul and Jesus believing it was all literal and so actually TRUE...

So RR over to you to describe why you and your church still believe it all to be 'literally' true too?

It does mean that Satan didn't exist either BTW...another problem for Jesus! You know where he claims the Devil offered him all the treasures of the world if he would worship him? Just another little problem for those who believes Jesus was the literal Son of God and even God himself! God creates Satan who then offers him some earthly treasure so he would bow down to this Satan feller!

You know folks, we really should not put up with this fairytale nonsense, never mind corrupt children's minds with it all...yet we do and the Government even supports faiths schools unconditionally with taxpayers money, most who are atheist...Summat's wrong at mill!

I should add that fundamental Christians haven't given up as they still very much believe Genesis to be absolutely true in every respect and why they won't accept evolution. Who knows what Jews and Muslims think on this issue?

hamzahf
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Re: The bible-Is it true?

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Postby hamzahf » January 8th, 2017, 11:40 pm

beeswax wrote:However, this means they must accept there could not have been a talking snake or God having a conversation with Adam or that the fall of mankind due to Adam's disobedience and that all puts the Kybosh on the Christian Church's theology and reason to exist and possibly the Jewish and Muslims beliefs too but they seem to have gone quiet on this question....


Not really quiet. The Catholics consider the accounts in Genesis as an allegory, the Jews don't interpret the Torah literally and say if something is at odds with established knowledge then we are misunderstanding what the Torah says. Allegory is the Muslim's friend, particularly since the Qur'an advises us that it contains allegorical passages and literal passages and we may not always know for sure which is which.

An interesting article about the Jewish perspective.

http://www.myjewishlearning.com/article ... -allegory/

"But, as Steven Katz notes…, "In Jewish religious thought Genesis is not regarded as meant for a literal reading, and Jewish tradition has not usually read it so." In fact, as we shall argue below, even the compilers of the Bible do not seem to have been concerned with a literal reading of the text. They were prepared to have at least parts of it read non-literally."

There are followers of all three faiths who are scriptural literalists. There are some atheists who espouse scriptural literalism as the only 'honest' position for a religionist. I beg to differ.

Regards
Hamzah


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