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The bible-Is it true?

Religion and Philosophy
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we are introducing this on a trial basis and that respect for other's views is important e.g. phrases like "your imaginary friend" or "you will go to hell" are not appropriate
hamzahf
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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#18841

Postby hamzahf » December 30th, 2016, 3:08 pm

hamzahf wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:Not eating pork I am a bit more dubious about. What is it specifically about pork? Vegetarianism or veganism, I can understand...but of all meats, picking out pork? Why?


A Google search can yield many reasons; parasites, an omniverous diet, digestibility of pork fat, intelligence of the pig, close physiology to humans. One can readily expand these reasons (or counter them) but for me irrespective of the religious ruling I would be doubtful about eating pork.


I would add that I was never much of a pork fan even before embracing Islam. My parents tended to prefer gammon and ham rather than pork and I recall that the issue of the persistence of parasites in roast pork was a publicised health concern at the time. I have eaten pork pies and bacon, but to be honest they both have strong flavours that I don't miss and as for the standard British pork sausage I will give that greasy delicacy a miss any day. So to add to my list would be health concerns about cured and processed meats (which in general I avoid), of which pork products are well represented.

If I want lean animal protein, then chicken and turkey are excellent replacements for pork. Free range organic pork may not be such a potential health disaster as in former years, but since animal husbandry standards vary throughout the world I would have health concerns about eating pork if I was travelling.

Jews and Muslims are particular about good animal husbandry, which is one reason for the religious guidance. I am really not sure what the New Testament says on the subject, which might have given licence to adopt local custom rather than impose a set of standards. Sure modern food standards are high, but the organic meat movement is testament that not all husbandry practice is to be desired.

Regards
Hamzah

hamzahf
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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#18855

Postby hamzahf » December 30th, 2016, 4:16 pm

hamzahf wrote:... I recall that the issue of the persistence of parasites in roast pork was a publicised health concern at the time.


Worth a read if one is partial to pork when travelling.

http://www.clinicalmicrobiologyandinfection.com/article/S1198-743X(14)61828-0/fulltext#cesec70

Table 3 gives some suggested cooking times and notes never to microwave pork as it is insufficient to kill the parasites.

Regards
Hamzah

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#18881

Postby beeswax » December 30th, 2016, 6:25 pm

Its me...

I was one of 12 kids who was forever being told what to do and where to go and so when I got old enough to make my own decisions that is what I try and do...I was a Christian yes but I never did what most Christians do which is to pray to God on my knees...or even pray regularly..what for? Rarely read the bible which and when I did decided it was obviously mostly fiction with stuff that I disagreed with anyway and I ate what I wanted and still do. I refused to get baptised even though that was a requirement and command of Jesus. I gave the Salvation Army a thousand pounds for kids to help pay for kids to go to summer camp and yes, learn about Jesus but also to allow them to enjoy a holiday with other kids like I never could. Then they gave me a weekly envelope to put money in even though I refused to sign up as a member...as i don't believe in church membership anyway. This is when I was attending for a couple of years. I refused to put anything in any weekly sense and I decided if and when to do it..not them!

Now Muslims and Jews can eat what they want and pray 100 times a day on their knees, they can but not me...I always ask myself the very same question..WHY? Why would God ask me to fast and deny food and water at ANY time providing there was as plentiful supply? Why would God ask me to pray on my knees anywhere when I can have an inner chat with him at any time, day or night? Any church or religion that asks such stuff are not thinking straight in my opinion and ANY that did I would tell them to sod off...Its really quite obvious why they all do these things..Power and Control of your mind and body...Pork is lovely and you can give all the reasons in the world for not eating it....Do that with ANY food and we are told its bad for us until they change their tiny minds...

Believers will say its God's will or its a command by someone or other in their religious text of guidance going back to the year dot...I say again, they are not thinking clearly. Some say its to show humility or sacrifice or even get us in the mood to worship God and why the call to prayer or the church bells ringing which rarely happens now in my area at least. To me its utter BS...and if there is another suitable word than please insert it as I may fall foul of the moderators but remember that great post just now...Respect the individual but that doesn't mean you respect their religious faith that THEY argue is essential to God..

Thing is...I don't fear God at all...I don't think he demands such things of us and I treat God as a friend and not the austere being that needs worship and providing my heart is in the right place. Do no harm to another human being or even animal or creature unless its essential and the golden rule is ALL we need to live by which is far far more important to what we wear or what we eat...That is all man made and not God made!

I would hope that 21st century intelligent beings would be able to know that and its just group think all based on tribal necessity. Why do men go around with beards and hats and gowns like they did in the first century and 6th century? Why do Priests wear dresses and hats and use incense? Why does the Pope look like a clown in a white dress which is entirely unsuitable for our climate and daily living?

IF you can ask the question WHY? You are half way to know what is needed and to leave such stuff in the pagan beliefs of the past and eat what the bloody hell you want to as we all die within 80 years give a decade or two either way...

Pork is absolutely gorgeous to eat and please a final instruction...

All you muslims and Jews, keep avoiding it as there would be less to go around and more pigs would need to be slaughtered and they really are quite cute and intelligent....In fact its God's will that you do! ;)

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#18965

Postby Voxvoci » December 31st, 2016, 11:50 am

Gryff wrote.
Now if god had only thought to mention "wash your hands before touching food", one could almost believe the rules were supernatural. It took until the C18th for science to work that one out.


The Mosaic law recognised the importance of hand hygiene. Exodus 30:18-21,Leviticus 15.11

In Jesus day it was the practice wash hands before eating. Unfortunately the religious leaders had turned hand washing into an elaborate ceremonial ritual which led to the criticism of Jesus and his apostles at Mark 7:1-5

Nevertheless ritual or otherwise handwashing before eating meals was practiced and was seen as a hygene measure in Bible times.

The Law given to the nation of Israel included regulations for washing after touching a dead body, quarantining those with infectious disease, and disposing of human waste safely. (Leviticus 11:28; 13:1-5; Deuteronomy 23:13) By contrast, one of the Egyptian remedies in use when these commands were given called for applying to an open wound a mixture that included human excrement.

The quarantining regulations were way ahead of their time. "One could almost believe the rules were supernatural."

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#18996

Postby Vision25 » December 31st, 2016, 1:31 pm

hamzahf wrote:
Jews and Muslims are particular about good animal husbandry, which is one reason for the religious guidance. I am really not sure what the New Testament says on the subject, which might have given licence to adopt local custom rather than impose a set of standards. Sure modern food standards are high, but the organic meat movement is testament that not all husbandry practice is to be desired.

Regards
Hamzah


This is simply not true.

In the olden days people didn't know about the parasites and didn't have proper cooking facilities and therefore a prescription against pork would have been one of the reasons to avoid it.

Nowadays people do know about the parasites and do have proper cooking facilities and therefore this simply cannot be why the pork restrictions still exist.

And the reason is this. All religions want their followers to be different from non followers in order to create in and out groups so as to foster in and out group feelings.

So nowadays its nothing to do with parasites, is it.

Its all about "we are different (i.e. better) than them".

Otherwise why bother with the restriction any more.

Vision25

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#19009

Postby beeswax » December 31st, 2016, 2:08 pm

Vision25 wrote:
hamzahf wrote:
Jews and Muslims are particular about good animal husbandry, which is one reason for the religious guidance. I am really not sure what the New Testament says on the subject, which might have given licence to adopt local custom rather than impose a set of standards. Sure modern food standards are high, but the organic meat movement is testament that not all husbandry practice is to be desired.

Regards
Hamzah


This is simply not true.

In the olden days people didn't know about the parasites and didn't have proper cooking facilities and therefore a prescription against pork would have been one of the reasons to avoid it.

Nowadays people do know about the parasites and do have proper cooking facilities and therefore this simply cannot be why the pork restrictions still exist.

And the reason is this. All religions want their followers to be different from non followers in order to create in and out groups so as to foster in and out group feelings.

So nowadays its nothing to do with parasites, is it.

Its all about "we are different (i.e. better) than them".

Otherwise why bother with the restriction any more.

Vision25


Spot on Vision25 and why Jews have circumcision and Christians insist on Baptism and Catholics have the Mass. It has absolutely nothing to do with God and ALL man made as part of club membership...

Its why I refused baptism because it was for me a meaningless ritual that has no bearing at all on ones behaviour towards each other and even God and just like the free masons lifting the trouser of one leg...another group that I have no time for as well.

Fasting is exactly in the same category as is banning marriage if they don't embrace their brand of faith...

One would hope that could be all consigned to the dustbin of pagan belief and people really did reason things out for themselves..But I was one of them but in essence I think my behaviour and attitude back then meant that I wasn't really and it was only a matter of time before I freed my mind of such dogmatic nonsense. Now if they were to ban fish and chips, then I am on a war footing! ;)

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#19019

Postby Vision25 » December 31st, 2016, 2:52 pm

beeswax wrote:[
Spot on Vision25 and why Jews have circumcision and Christians insist on Baptism and Catholics have the Mass. It has absolutely nothing to do with God and ALL man made as part of club membership...


Err, actually no. Not as such.

Whilst circumcision is a manifestation of in groups it doesn't serve as a marker unless men are lobbing their knobs out on a regular basis or walk round naked (perhaps they do where you live :lol: ).

Equally, people may use a different place of worship of the same denomination, etc.

What you are on about is manifestations of in group cohesiveness not in-group/out-group preference.

An example would be the little hat thingie that some jews wear. They are easily identifiable both to insiders AND outsiders.

One would hope that could be all consigned to the dustbin of pagan belief and people really did reason things out for themselves..But I was one of them but in essence I think my behaviour and attitude back then meant that I wasn't really and it was only a matter of time before I freed my mind of such dogmatic nonsense.


Well yes, but then you would be getting rid of all the good things about religion as well.

Such as some religious music.

As a bulwark against nastiness, what some people would describe as evil.

As a bastion of civilisation, by which I mean western white male civilisation.

Now if they were to ban fish and chips, then I am on a war footing! ;)


Now you're talking :twisted:

Vision25

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#19046

Postby gryffron » December 31st, 2016, 4:11 pm

beeswax wrote:Now if they were to ban fish and chips, then I am on a war footing! ;)


Although, in the 21st century, coronary heart disease is a bigger killer than food poisoning. So if god is really trying to protect us, maybe he should have seen that coming?

gryff

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#19069

Postby beeswax » December 31st, 2016, 5:23 pm

This is the challenge..

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12 ... mcdonalds/

Driving on the Sabbath?

Oh deary me! I wonder if they switched off his power supply and running water on Saturday's he may think again?

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#19073

Postby beeswax » December 31st, 2016, 5:30 pm

One would hope that could be all consigned to the dustbin of pagan belief and people really did reason things out for themselves..But I was one of them but in essence I think my behaviour and attitude back then meant that I wasn't really and it was only a matter of time before I freed my mind of such dogmatic nonsense.


Well yes, but then you would be getting rid of all the good things about religion as well.

Such as some religious music.

Vision25[/quote]

What are these good things that could not be done by non believers? There is great music in all genres..

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#19076

Postby Voxvoci » December 31st, 2016, 5:40 pm

Although, in the 21st century, coronary heart disease is a bigger killer than food poisoning. So if god is really trying to protect us, maybe he should have seen that coming?

gryff


“But pay attention to yourselves that your hearts never become weighed down with overeating and heavy drinking and anxieties of life" - Luke 21:34

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#19179

Postby beeswax » January 1st, 2017, 11:52 am

What is annoying is that religious people will use ANY excuse to believe their holy text rather than the evidence we actually have now in that it was man made and not God made. Homosexuality? Food? Circumcision? 6 day creation? You name it they will argue the opposite. They would say that white was black if their text says it..

Thing is we should all celebrate that 'most' Christians, Jews and Muslims are not really Christians, Jews and Muslims they just pretend to be..

If they were we would be having Mosaic laws, Slavery, apostasy and Jihad just to name three...Let us thank God they are not! ;)

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#19196

Postby ReformedCharacter » January 1st, 2017, 1:01 pm

beeswax wrote:What is annoying is that religious people will use ANY excuse to believe their holy text rather than the evidence we actually have now in that it was man made and not God made. Homosexuality? Food? Circumcision? 6 day creation? You name it they will argue the opposite. They would say that white was black if their text says it..

Thing is we should all celebrate that 'most' Christians, Jews and Muslims are not really Christians, Jews and Muslims they just pretend to be..

If they were we would be having Mosaic laws, Slavery, apostasy and Jihad just to name three...Let us thank God they are not! ;)


Do Christians believe the New Testament was written by God? I don't think they do.

'Thing is we should all celebrate that 'most' Christians, Jews and Muslims are not really Christians,'

I totally disagree with that. The world would be a better place if those who professed those religions actually lived by those precepts. But not, of course, the distortions that Bad People use to justify their evil.

Perhaps you could point out which of the teachings of Christ (the words attributed to Christ himself) that you wish to celebrate for the fact that people only pretend to follow?

'What is annoying is that religious people will use ANY excuse to believe their holy text rather than the evidence we actually have now in that it was man made and not God made. Homosexuality? Food? Circumcision? 6 day creation? You name it they will argue the opposite. They would say that white was black if their text says it..'

Perhaps you are unaware (or perhaps you aren't, but the facts don't suit your argument) that many religious people do not take religious texts literally.

RC (Neither Christian, Jew nor Muslim)

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#19201

Postby jackdaww » January 1st, 2017, 1:34 pm

Voxvoci wrote:
Although, in the 21st century, coronary heart disease is a bigger killer than food poisoning. So if god is really trying to protect us, maybe he should have seen that coming?

gryff


“But pay attention to yourselves that your hearts never become weighed down with overeating and heavy drinking and anxieties of life" - Luke 21:34


===================

so ? that is the word of luke (allegedly) written in a book (bible), written by men , supposedly inspired by this god entity.

so is this bible true?

which is where we came in.

:roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#19202

Postby beeswax » January 1st, 2017, 1:37 pm

ReformedCharacter wrote:
Perhaps you could point out which of the teachings of Christ (the words attributed to Christ himself) that you wish to celebrate for the fact that people only pretend to follow?

RC (Neither Christian, Jew nor Muslim)
[/quote]

Well, just take two and there are many more and IF religious people obeyed their holy text that you think they should then we would be having slavery, mosaic laws, stoning to death of gays and unmarried people who have sex and working on the Sabbath etc never mind women being kept under the thumb as they were...

Jesus said to give up ALL they have and to follow him. And its easier for a rich man to go through the eye of a needle than to enter heaven.

So how many Christians have given up ALL they have? but I have just remembered the very worst thing that Jesus said which is clearly NOT true apart from him saying he would be back in that generation he lived in...

He said to his followers to ask God ANYTHING in his name and God will do it...No ifs or buts but do that and would God give a child a stone etc..I know personally the damage that text has done to my loved one..

People get carried away with the few things that Jesus said about loving one another and giving to the poor. That's a universal truth.

I've said that almost all of the Christians I have ever known personally, are miserable, unkind, uncharitable and hypocrites and could show that by some examples but I won't do that here..

I personally would not care if every religious place of worship was closed down and we all decided to THINK for ourselves what is good for mankind and what is clearly man made holy text to control our very minds and bodies...

They clearly don't take the text literally as we would indeed have far more conflict in the world if they did but no believer that I know would not agree with that and still maintain the bible is the very word of God and ditto the Quran.

You may have forgotten that Jesus said that not one iota dot or comma of the law should be overturned until the end of the world came and so clearly he agreed with it all too..

Unfortunately you have fallen for the same thing as they all do the whole time...Pick and choose which bits of the text sound good and ignore the bad bits like menstruating women are unclean and should not be touched and not attend their place of worship. Its my understanding that is still the case with Jews and Muslims...

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#19204

Postby beeswax » January 1st, 2017, 1:50 pm

Just to add that anyone can believe in a 'personal' God and never come into contact with anyone else or attend any place of worship. That is clearly done to increase the numbers, control their minds and bodies and money of course and to enable them to live a life of comparative luxury. I mean would Jesus approve of the Vatican and all its wealth and treasures for instance and not selling it all and giving to the poor?

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#19212

Postby ReformedCharacter » January 1st, 2017, 2:17 pm

beeswax wrote:
ReformedCharacter wrote:
Perhaps you could point out which of the teachings of Christ (the words attributed to Christ himself) that you wish to celebrate for the fact that people only pretend to follow?

RC (Neither Christian, Jew nor Muslim)


Well, just take two and there are many more and IF religious people obeyed their holy text that you think they should then we would be having slavery, mosaic laws, stoning to death of gays and unmarried people who have sex and working on the Sabbath etc never mind women being kept under the thumb as they were...

Jesus said to give up ALL they have and to follow him. And its easier for a rich man to go through the eye of a needle than to enter heaven.

So how many Christians have given up ALL they have? but I have just remembered the very worst thing that Jesus said which is clearly NOT true apart from him saying he would be back in that generation he lived in...

He said to his followers to ask God ANYTHING in his name and God will do it...No ifs or buts but do that and would God give a child a stone etc..I know personally the damage that text has done to my loved one..

People get carried away with the few things that Jesus said about loving one another and giving to the poor. That's a universal truth.

I've said that almost all of the Christians I have ever known personally, are miserable, unkind, uncharitable and hypocrites and could show that by some examples but I won't do that here..

I personally would not care if every religious place of worship was closed down and we all decided to THINK for ourselves what is good for mankind and what is clearly man made holy text to control our very minds and bodies...

They clearly don't take the text literally as we would indeed have far more conflict in the world if they did but no believer that I know would not agree with that and still maintain the bible is the very word of God and ditto the Quran.

You may have forgotten that Jesus said that not one iota dot or comma of the law should be overturned until the end of the world came and so clearly he agreed with it all too..

Unfortunately you have fallen for the same thing as they all do the whole time...Pick and choose which bits of the text sound good and ignore the bad bits like menstruating women are unclean and should not be touched and not attend their place of worship. Its my understanding that is still the case with Jews and Muslims...


You've had another rant but not actually answered my question.

'Unfortunately you have fallen for the same thing as they all do the whole time'

You have absolutely no idea what I have 'fallen for' nor what my beliefs are, clearly your prejudices are getting in the way.

RC

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#19218

Postby beeswax » January 1st, 2017, 2:58 pm

RC you asked...."Do Christians believe the New Testament was written by God? I don't think they do. "

You claim to be an atheist and yet you can say that?

Whereas I was a Christian for over 60 years and have come directly into contact with other Christians and many Churches and so suggest that I am in a better position to know the answer to that question and say that 99% of them do believe the bible (all of it) was dictated by God..

I can only reply to your comments and you would need to expand on how you think you know what others believe? I always tend to 'rant' against religious beliefs because they are not true and have a disruptive influence on society and enslave minds and bodies in the process. If we replaced all the main Characters in religious text with the eg Seven Dwarfs in Snow White, then how would people react to it?

ANYONE can say they are inspired by God and have visitations by angels and Gods but who decides whether it was true when almost every single believer was never present when that happened? Then ask WHY....Why did they come up with these stories? And the best question of all? Why none today when we have the means of checking things out?

So which other questions do you want answering? I despise what Christianity did to my wife and so why I should respect any of it?

I do know what your beliefs are because you said so above...Neither Christian, Jew or Muslim and yet you know more than those with some direct experiences? Maybe you are a lapsed Priest, Pope, Imam. Jew?

You are damn right, my prejudices will always get in the way when I see what its done and know whether stuff is true or false or not?

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#19221

Postby beeswax » January 1st, 2017, 3:14 pm

I have studied long and hard what eminent biblical historians have said about the New Testament who's whole lives have been dedicated to learn Aramaic and Greek in order to read the earliest NT manuscripts and when they were written and how they were copied and how many originals we have from the time of Jesus and you know how many we have? NONE! The only evidence from the late first century is a just a credit card size of the whole NT we have now and so how many Christians have taken the trouble to try and learn what it is they believe in? Indeed how many Jews and Muslims, ditto? Do Christians know how many errors and discrepancies there are between all these early manuscripts. The evidence is there if they want to search for it but none will IF they think the intention is to try and persuade them their beliefs may be affected if they do? How many know about the Jesus Seminar when loads of experts from across the world studied the the Gospels to try and assess whether the words of Jesus were likely to be spoken by him or not? Its a long time since I looked at that but from memory it was around a third likely and two thirds NOT likely...Would most Christians KNOW this? But then I would say even if they did, they would say it was some sort of conspiracy against their faith.

I have not taken my decision lightly...
Last edited by beeswax on January 1st, 2017, 3:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: The bible-Is it true?

#19222

Postby Clariman » January 1st, 2017, 3:16 pm

Moderator Message:
beeswax, I understand your passion for your subject, but please temper it a little. We'd prefer this Board to be for discussion, listening and enquiring rather than simply preaching. The same applies to all here - theist and atheist.

Thanks


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