Non believers attending occasional church services - disrespectful/unethical to the religion ?

[Daytona]

Hiya, I'm interested in views from religous people - I'm a humanist and at times like Christmas I feel drawn to attend Anglican church services as I like the environment and in particular, the singing. I stop myself reasoning that it would be disrespectful/unethical to religous people and to the church. Is my thinking correct ?

[redsturgeon]

I believe that Anglicans and most churches welcome all comers as long as they are not disruptive.

The Xmas midnight mass at most cathedrals across the UK would be much diminished if only believers were allowed in.

John

[beeswax]

I tend to agree with RedSturgeon with his reply. The ones I attended always left the doors open during the services but there are a few now that lock them for obvious reasons of disruption and security.

During my project going to all my local Christian Churches to see what differences there were including the Catholic Church where I went to twice and it was pretty full being the only one in the area...I would guess 150 people, as most know the service is the same ie they have a mass which is all about the bread and wine and the last supper declaration where Jesus said this is my body I break for you and this is my blood that I shed for you etc. I was still into my Christian faith then and didn't believe in the transubstantiation where the bread and wine is magically changed by the hand waving Priest (and why they insist on an ordained Priest doing that) and I was brought up celebrating the Eucharist purely in a symbolic way and so I wondered what to do when I went there? Do I do it knowing what I know or refuse it knowing it was all make believe? St Paul said not to take the Eucharist if you felt unworthy to do so...

I've since thought it was surely only the unworthy ones that Jesus called and should take it but that's another story.

So the first visit, I refused to participate in the bread and wine and the second time I did....

You just have to hedge your bets sometime!

[jackdaww]

its possible to go in without taking part in the service.

just to observe or look around before/after the service.

[beeswax]

I now have no intention of having any kind of funeral service in church or anywhere else. Its a rip of cost when the whole point is to bury you or cremate you and going from A to B to C and D seems pointless anyway when all you require is to go straight to D..In my case a cremation plot where my late FIL and my MIL and Wife will go in eventually. What IS the point of a good send off when the dead can't see OR can they?

Its another thread but at one time it was frowned upon that Christian burials should NOT include being cremated if only because St Paul said we all will be resurrected in our former bodies and being cremated could be a tad difficult....

I think Jews (Not sure about Muslims) insist on burials only and on the same or next day after death...All facing the East too...Which is a great advantage when you have just poisoned someone....Robert Maxwell's remains are over there.....See its just my sense of humour that gets in the way!

[Clitheroekid]

Hiya, I'm interested in views from religious people - I'm a humanist and at times like Christmas I feel drawn to attend Anglican church services as I like the environment and in particular, the singing. I stop myself reasoning that it would be disrespectful/unethical to religious people and to the church. Is my thinking correct ?

No, I don't think it's remotely disrespectful, neither do I think the congregation would be at all offended by your presence. Most religions seem only too keen to attract new members, so they would probably be delighted if a non-believer attended their services, believing that this would be the first step to your conversion.

I attended Mass at Douai Abbey on Christmas Day and thoroughly enjoyed it, as it involved Latin and Gregorian plain chant and lots of `bells and smells'. They had a decent choir and as well as the plain chant they also sung some Christmas carols.

I was brought up as a Catholic and although I have no religious belief I still enjoy the aesthetic qualities of the traditional Latin Mass. I suppose for me it's a bit like going to the theatre, and I have to say that I find the modern form of the Mass condescending and facile, and completely lacking the dignity of the Latin Mass. The Church don't seem to have realised that part of the attraction of the traditional Mass was the centuries of history and tradition that it represented, and for many people it was the `antiquated' ritual that provided comfort and a refuge from their troubles.

It's also quite a pleasant - and unusual these days - opportunity to let one's mind drift for an hour or so, uninterrupted by the ubiquitous and never-ceasing demands of the smartphone or one of its electronic chums.

I suspect I wasn't the only one attending for these non-religious reasons, and I very much doubt any of the believers there would have felt I was doing anything remotely wrong. In any event, I'm sure that any such doubts would have been assuaged by my contribution when the collection plate came round!

[Clariman]

Likewise, I don't think any church would have an issue with non believers attending. On the contrary they would welcome it. I am a non believer but took part in the midnight watch service at my wife's ch7r have and the lessons and carols service. They are always very welcoming.

[Clariman]

Likewise, I don't think any church would have an issue with non believers attending. On the contrary they would welcome it. I am a non believer but took part in the midnight watch service at my wife's church and the lessons and carols service. They are always very welcoming.

[UncleEbenezer]

I have no wish to attend any kind of religious services.

However, religious buildings serve a lot more purpose than that. Some of them are of huge historical and cultural significance. They are venues for concerts and other cultural events. So we atheists have ample reason to visit religious venues.

Sometimes we are dragged in. As a singer, I am sometimes asked to help out when a church holds an event beyond the capabilities of their own choir. And of course one has occasion to attend a church wedding or funeral from time to time.

As for disrespect, that's a tricky one. Sometimes one doesn't know what the powers-that-be consider disrespectful. This is not helped by the way conventions differ between different places, denominations, and even individual congregations.

[RowdyReptile]

Hiya, I'm interested in views from religous people - I'm a humanist and at times like Christmas I feel drawn to attend Anglican church services as I like the environment and in particular, the singing. I stop myself reasoning that it would be disrespectful/unethical to religous people and to the church. Is my thinking correct ?

I don't think you visiting would be disrespectful at all. It happens all the time, and not just on religious holidays, to have visitors at the various churches.

I agree about the singing/music. It can be truly inspiring and art really.

RR

[bruncher]

I feel drawn to attend Anglican church services as I like the environment and in particular, the singing

some traditions might describe you as a "seeker"

[jfgw]

I cannot speak of other religions but almost all Christian Churches welcome people in, and many go out to the people. The Salvation Army is a fine example of a Church which holds services in the streets, but other Churches sometimes hold services in public places.

As a former Christian, I would not consider it appropriate for a non-believer to take an active part, for example, in a choir or religious group of musicians as the person would, in effect, be proclaiming a faith that he or she did not have.

Julian F. G. W.

[beeswax]

I cannot speak of other religions but almost all Christian Churches welcome people in, and many go out to the people. The Salvation Army is a fine example of a Church which holds services in the streets, but other Churches sometimes hold services in public places.

As a former Christian, I would not consider it appropriate for a non-believer to take an active part, for example, in a choir or religious group of musicians as the person would, in effect, be proclaiming a faith that he or she did not have.

Julian F. G. W.

In my own small experience most of those attending regular weekly church services are not Christians as Jesus would have recognised them either and that includes the Salvation Army where I attended regularly for a couple of years mainly because they had a band in there. They would have got quite a lot of money in our will but we changed it so now they will get zilch. There is no love or compassion in these places and they use it as more a social club for miserables that have no where else to go. They are completely humourless like most religious people are, again in my limited experience...How odd that people of other faiths demonstrate that too. Doesn't God have a sense of humour? I can't speak for others but its yet another reason I ditched my former faith. In my area, most of the ones going are elderly and some of their children and they are a dwindling number at that. No loss to anyone and why they are closing. I could give many examples for my views but won't do so here.

The SA in my area have never held an outdoor meeting despite me asking why they didn't as they were close to the town centre with an open area to do just that. But just watch them at Christmas time with their begging bowls and trombones!

[ten0rman]

jfgw,

I am a member of two choirs, both of which give concerts of mainly sacred music in churches. I, like some other posters on these boards, do not necessarily agree with religion, but find that the "best" music appears to be sacred. For example, I will be taking part in a performance of Haydn's Creation in April, a work which has some very pleasant parts in it as well as the well-known The Heavens are Telling.

I am also taking part with a third scratch choir in a performance of Charles Wood's St Mark's Passion on Palm Sunday which will, I think, replace the regular evening service. I am doing this because the organiser has asked for volunteers to assist in this, as otherwise the event wouldn't get off the ground. I am told that one of the other singers is a staunch atheist, who also finds that the best music is sacred.

I also know of another singer who is an atheist, so it would seem that there are a number of us who sing without having any religious affinity. Are you saying that we should all stop singing and thus lose the enjoyment of this music?

Frankly, I suspect that if this were to happen, ie non-believers stop singing in churches, then choral music would suffer greatly. As it is, judging by the age profile, a lot of choral societies will be defunct within 20 years because there are very few younger singers, especially males, coming into choral singing, hence it could be said that we non-believers are helping in keeping a tradition alive.

Regards,

ten0rman

[beeswax]

jfgw,

Frankly, I suspect that if this were to happen, ie non-believers stop singing in churches, then choral music would suffer greatly. As it is, judging by the age profile, a lot of choral societies will be defunct within 20 years because there are very few younger singers, especially males, coming into choral singing, hence it could be said that we non-believers are helping in keeping a tradition alive.

Regards,

ten0rman

The SA did a survey in the UK of those attending the local citadels and they agree with you that if the numbers keep dwindling as they are then most if not all of them will be able to continue within the next 20 years and so its more a generation thing that the younger ones find religion not to their taste one bit. Maybe except for the happy clappy non conformist evangelicals who treat it more like the local disco....At least doing some good then!

I did a local project of all the Christian Churches in my area by visiting them a couple of times during their services and again found them to be mostly elderly and few in number.

The big worry is Islam where the faith is a way of life and culture and why their numbers are actually increasing. Its why large immigrant numbers and their birth rates should be watched closely, especially if they then want Sharia Law reintroduced as they did in the UK not that long ago. Third world Christian congregations are holding up mostly because they haven't reached the educational standards of the West and why FGM is still rife. I also find some Christian music inspiring but choral type music is not my scene at all. Handel's Messiah if that is in that class and don't know whether it is or nor leaves me cold. Jerusalem and All things bright and beautiful are just fine!

[jfgw]

I have no problems with non-Christians singing in a Church as long as it is a "performance" rather than a part of regular worship. My personal belief is that the regular Sunday choir should be all Christians. I do not know enough about Church worship to know whether or not this is the case although I would expect it to be anyway for the smaller Churches.

I may be biased a bit by my upbringing in The Salvation Army where all band members and songsters are Salvationists.

Julian F. G. W.

[beeswax]

I have no problems with non-Christians singing in a Church as long as it is a "performance" rather than a part of regular worship. My personal belief is that the regular Sunday choir should be all Christians. I do not know enough about Church worship to know whether or not this is the case although I would expect it to be anyway for the smaller Churches.

I may be biased a bit by my upbringing in The Salvation Army where all band members and songsters are Salvationists.

Julian F. G. W.

I went to the SA when I was a teenager and then left after a few years and probably why I went back 60 years later to try and find the source of my dwindling Christian faith and didn't find it. I think they had a rule that you couldn't become a band member unless you became a member or a 'Salvationist' as you call it. They did ask me to rejoin but I refused saying I no longer believed in membership of ANY church and it was against the spirit of the faith anyway. The same rule applies to wearing the SA uniform. In my local citadel I would say that half had either a tee shirt on or had the collar and tie and the rest didn't have one on. I did think the Band Leader who was middle aged showed a bad example by wearing a tee shirt though. Whether these rules still apply I don't know. I did say to them that their policy or doctrine on no drink ie wine, spirits and beer was no longer an issue as it was at the turn of the last century and should be abandoned and anyway it was not biblical teaching as Jesus was no stranger to the odd glass....and of course turning water into wine....I bet that converted quite a few!

[quelquod]

A church building is a building, no more, for my church at least. Lots of things go on there. It doesn't seem to me either here or there that non-christians, other faiths or atheists should enjoy singing any sort of music there. I'm sure we'd encourage it, we'd certainly help host it if it seemed wanted.

At Christmas services and others too all are welcome of course, singing or not. Everyone that I know visited/attended church meetings before becoming a christian, many have come for years and still haven't decided. I wouldn't expect an atheist to perform a worship song specifically for the church, we certainly wouldn't encourage it, but for anyone who believes or is tempted to believe in God why not? We don't have a questionnaire to complete on entry.

[UncleEbenezer]

As a former Christian, I would not consider it appropriate for a non-believer to take an active part, for example, in a choir or religious group of musicians as the person would, in effect, be proclaiming a faith that he or she did not have.

Practicing christians often take the opposite view when they're desperate for singers for a one-off event. Even the very simplest of music - like Stainer's Crucifixion - is beyond the typical church choir without help.

They know better than to try and get me to sing regularly in anything whose primary purpose is religion rather than music.

I've become more picky over the years, and will refuse point-blank anywhere they're going to use incense (dammit, how did that filth escape the smoking ban?) or use grills to heat the place. You'd also need to trick me into wearing any kind of robes, on the grounds that they inevitably smell of a desperate need for the laundry.

[jfgw]

Practicing christians often take the opposite view when they're desperate for singers for a one-off event. Even the very simplest of music - like Stainer's Crucifixion - is beyond the typical church choir without help...

...You'd also need to trick me into wearing any kind of robes, on the grounds that they inevitably smell of a desperate need for the laundry.

I see no problem with a one-off event as long it is a performance of a piece of music rather than regular worship. It is not proclaiming the Gospel as such. I would consider regular smart dress to be more appropriate than a robe, however.

As stated previously, my views may be biased by my Salvation Army upbringing. Only a Salvationist would be allowed to be a band member. AFAIK, it would be against the rules for, for example, a soloist from a non-SA band to be accompanied by a SA band irrespective of that person's faith. There would (rightly IMHO) be civilised uproar if a non-Salvationist were to wear a Salvation Army uniform for such a performance.

Julian F. G. W.