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What if a 'Life after death' were suddenly proved?

Religion and Philosophy
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we are introducing this on a trial basis and that respect for other's views is important e.g. phrases like "your imaginary friend" or "you will go to hell" are not appropriate
stevensfo
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What if a 'Life after death' were suddenly proved?

#360637

Postby stevensfo » November 27th, 2020, 3:02 pm

There was a post recently 'What's the point?' that reminded me of discussions I had years ago, and which were never resolved.

An updated NMR machine with improved software and AI gives a glimpse into what happens after death. Research allows scientists to finally prove that there is an existence after death and they confirm that souls simply leave their four dimensions but enter others.

Would this help humanity or not? How?

If humans know that they will continue in some form after death, would this make everyone care more about their life and the lives of others?

Or would humans just binge watch TV and drink themselves to death.

Or something in the middle?

i.e. would such proof be good for society or a complete disaster?

Steve

PS A similar discussion about confirmation of aliens came to the conclusion that after a short euphoria and 'I told you so', reality would kick in and it would be business as usual. Aliens, afterlife or not, someone still has to pay the electricity bill. ;)

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Re: What if a 'Life after death' were suddenly proved?

#360641

Postby ReformedCharacter » November 27th, 2020, 3:10 pm

stevensfo wrote:
If humans know that they will continue in some form after death, would this make everyone care more about their life and the lives of others?

Or would humans just binge watch TV and drink themselves to death.

Or something in the middle?

i.e. would such proof be good for society or a complete disaster?

Steve


Surely it depends on what sort of life after death. Some religions encourage good behaviour in this life to ensure a journey to heaven instead of hell. Better check the fine print.

RC

stevensfo
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Re: What if a 'Life after death' were suddenly proved?

#360661

Postby stevensfo » November 27th, 2020, 4:12 pm

ReformedCharacter wrote:
stevensfo wrote:
If humans know that they will continue in some form after death, would this make everyone care more about their life and the lives of others?

Or would humans just binge watch TV and drink themselves to death.

Or something in the middle?

i.e. would such proof be good for society or a complete disaster?

Steve


Surely it depends on what sort of life after death. Some religions encourage good behaviour in this life to ensure a journey to heaven instead of hell. Better check the fine print.

RC


May I nip this in the bud pretty fast? No going off at tangents. No religion involved, no fine print. No, the question is simply about proof of some kind of continuation and self-awareness of the consciousness after death. That's all. What effects, if any on everyday life?


Steve

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Re: What if a 'Life after death' were suddenly proved?

#360680

Postby scrumpyjack » November 27th, 2020, 5:00 pm

It is such an absurd idea, I don't know where to start but there might be an awful lot of suicides in the middle east as all the young lads wanted to get to their 76 virgins ASAP :lol:

and if all life (down to bacteria etc) had this continued existence it could be very crowded

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Re: What if a 'Life after death' were suddenly proved?

#360715

Postby stevensfo » November 27th, 2020, 6:50 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:It is such an absurd idea, I don't know where to start but there might be an awful lot of suicides in the middle east as all the young lads wanted to get to their 76 virgins ASAP :lol:

and if all life (down to bacteria etc) had this continued existence it could be very crowded


Who Knows?

Research allows scientists to finally prove that there is an existence after death and they confirm that souls simply leave their four dimensions but enter others.

That's all.

Good or bad for society?


Steve

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Re: What if a 'Life after death' were suddenly proved?

#360717

Postby scrumpyjack » November 27th, 2020, 7:00 pm

This reminds me of Bertrand Russell's teapot proposition

If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes.

But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is an intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense.

If, however, the existence of such a teapot were affirmed in ancient books, taught as the sacred truth every Sunday, and instilled into the minds of children at school, hesitation to believe in its existence would become a mark of eccentricity and entitle the doubter to the attentions of the psychiatrist in an enlightened age or of the Inquisitor in an earlier time.

What if it could be proved the teapot existed?

stevensfo
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Re: What if a 'Life after death' were suddenly proved?

#360739

Postby stevensfo » November 27th, 2020, 8:19 pm

scrumpyjack wrote:This reminds me of Bertrand Russell's teapot proposition
What if it could be proved the teapot existed?


Sorry, but when you go in for an NMR or CAT scan or ECG, nobody starts talking to you about God, virgins, teapots or Bertrand Russell. I really am trying to keep my question as simple as possible. I'm sure that when people saw the first X-ray of their body, they thought of supernatural forces - or teapots if you like - but let's stick to science.

My question is very simple.
Research allows scientists to finally prove that there is an existence after death and they confirm that souls/a consciousness simply leave their four dimensions but enter others. Nothing to do with religion, but simply a confirmation that 'something' continues.

That's all.

Good or bad for society?


Steve

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Re: What if a 'Life after death' were suddenly proved?

#360740

Postby mark88man » November 27th, 2020, 8:30 pm

Bad, because your question has already caused heated debate and angered yourself - therefore the world has increased sum of bad emotions without a gain of good emotions.

Also bad, because knowing that something happens but not exactly what will create a maelstrom of debate, very much along existing political/philosophical/religious lines about its significance and exact nature

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Re: What if a 'Life after death' were suddenly proved?

#360758

Postby stevensfo » November 27th, 2020, 9:43 pm

mark88man wrote:Bad, because your question has already caused heated debate and angered yourself - therefore the world has increased sum of bad emotions without a gain of good emotions.

Also bad, because knowing that something happens but not exactly what will create a maelstrom of debate, very much along existing political/philosophical/religious lines about its significance and exact nature


Slight irritation perhaps, but not anger. I have a Monty Python sense of humour, so thanks to Scrumpyjack, I now have this vision of a bloody great teapot orbiting the sun just beyond the asteroid belt, no doubt awaiting the second coming of the great boiling kettle, followed by philosophical discussions of tea in first or milk? ;)

Agree about the implications. My own view is that even if it were proved that your consciousness continued in some form, once this information had been well and truly digested, it wouldn't change society that much. After a while, it would be business as usual.
.....though no doubt Scientologists would make a fortune selling 'really good' teapots. ;)

Steve

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Re: What if a 'Life after death' were suddenly proved?

#360771

Postby JohnB » November 27th, 2020, 11:48 pm

Revealing there was an afterlife but giving no details is both unlikely to be believed and cause more stress because of the added uncertainty. Its not going to be a comfort to those picturing pergatory or wondering if tyet will see loved ones again

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Re: What if a 'Life after death' were suddenly proved?

#360789

Postby scrumpyjack » November 28th, 2020, 7:34 am

Quite. I think there would be a lot of soul searching.

Meanwhile the teapot has unfortunately collided with Musk's car.

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Re: What if a 'Life after death' were suddenly proved?

#360791

Postby Itsallaguess » November 28th, 2020, 9:11 am

scrumpyjack wrote:
I think there would be a lot of soul searching.


For clarity, do you mean when we all get there?

I mean, it *is* likely to be very busy....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: What if a 'Life after death' were suddenly proved?

#360794

Postby Midsmartin » November 28th, 2020, 9:36 am

I think the question is too hypothetical. All the evidence is that consciousness and personality is tied inextricably to the brain. If we injure the brain, our personality can change entirely. Our perceptions rely on real physical sense organs, whose output can be changed by injury, drugs or genetics. Memory resides in physical brain tissue. As does speech and everything else. We are different people at age 80 than we are at 18.

If there were a soul it must have no memory, sight, hearing, vision, taste, pain, warmth. These things require a body.

Split brain patients can end up with two opinions on one subject.
All the evidence says that the idea of a soul is absurd, so the question is like asking "what if I had X ray vision and could see through walls?". We could joke about it over a point, but as a real discussion it's pointless.

But to try to answer anyway, it would be radical. It'd be incredibly scary, being cast adrift for eternity without all the things that make me me. An eternity where, if I did have senses, I would witness the downfall and collapse of civilization, the demise of the Earth. I hope someone turns me off by then.

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Re: What if a 'Life after death' were suddenly proved?

#360812

Postby redsturgeon » November 28th, 2020, 10:42 am

Considering that many if not most people on Earth already believe in an afterlife, I doubt it would make much practical difference.

John

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Re: What if a 'Life after death' were suddenly proved?

#360861

Postby Adamski » November 28th, 2020, 12:36 pm

I think it would be a good thing for many, as would give people hope that loved ones carry on after death. As it is in the UK no we're an atheist country (unofficially) there is no greater purpose or hope, which is why have to live with reality that good and bad things happen to good people and have to make do in life without a comforting man in the sky watching over us.

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Re: What if a 'Life after death' were suddenly proved?

#360863

Postby Midsmartin » November 28th, 2020, 12:59 pm

If it were proved, every religious nutter would consider their personal beliefs confirmed. There would be wave after wave of persecution of "others", whether other god-belief, sexual persuasion etc. , crusades, warfare, beheadings, intolerance and so forth. While we each looked forward to an eternity of likely emptiness. Do souls continue to exist in 10s of billions of years after our universe expands and decays into a silence of heat death? There wouldn't even be anything good on TV. Would the Two Ronnies still be available? The whole idea makes me shudder and feel slightly depressed.

(Would we know that these souls were in fact eternal and felt good about things? Maybe these souls fade away to nothing in an agony of loneliness and sadness. Do souls even have the hormones and functions to give them moods? Do chimpanzees have souls? Why not - they're 99%+ the same genetically? What about dolphins? Mice? Jellyfish? Are these souls all the same? Are souls created to order when a new human is born? Or the egg fertilised - if the latter then souls of miscarriages had the short straw. Or are there an infinity of souls who have a go in a human (or chimp) as a fairground ride? If someone has a stroke that changes their personality, which version is the soul - the pain-ridden, amnesiac broken one, or the 18-year old chirpy one? What if the 18 year old one felt suicidal - does the soul feel suicidal for all eternity?). When epileptic patients have/had their brain hemispheres split, did their soul split? The more deeply you think about it, the more ludicrous it becomes.

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Re: What if a 'Life after death' were suddenly proved?

#360926

Postby Stonge » November 28th, 2020, 4:42 pm

Science doesn't prove anything.

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Re: What if a 'Life after death' were suddenly proved?

#360970

Postby Bubblesofearth » November 28th, 2020, 6:27 pm

Midsmartin wrote:I think the question is too hypothetical. All the evidence is that consciousness and personality is tied inextricably to the brain.


What in the brain? Or, to put it another way, what would you build if you wanted to make something that experienced sensations? I'm not sure we have any idea except to maybe say 'I'd build a brain!'

If we injure the brain, our personality can change entirely. Our perceptions rely on real physical sense organs, whose output can be changed by injury, drugs or genetics. Memory resides in physical brain tissue. As does speech and everything else. We are different people at age 80 than we are at 18.

If there were a soul it must have no memory, sight, hearing, vision, taste, pain, warmth. These things require a body.


I don't think that's true. The body merely relays information to the brain via the nervous system. Direct electrical stimulation is possible.

All the evidence says that the idea of a soul is absurd, so the question is like asking "what if I had X ray vision and could see through walls?". We could joke about it over a point, but as a real discussion it's pointless.


Until we can answer the question of what is required for sensations, consciousness etc then the idea of a soul or some form of continuity cannot be ruled out IMO. We just don't know. There are already some ideas out there that a couple of hundred years ago would have seemed absurd. General relativity and quantum mechanics being the most obvious examples.

If there were evidence (let's not call it proof) of continuity then it would not only answer one of the most fundamental questions about life but would remove the fear of oblivion that plagues many people. One consequence would be research into exactly what this life-after-death was going to be like. If there is evidence then there would likely be avenues to explore. I think it would be the dawn of a pretty exciting era.

BoE

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Re: What if a 'Life after death' were suddenly proved?

#361013

Postby jfgw » November 28th, 2020, 9:01 pm

Midsmartin wrote:I think the question is too hypothetical. All the evidence is that consciousness and personality is tied inextricably to the brain. If we injure the brain, our personality can change entirely. Our perceptions rely on real physical sense organs, whose output can be changed by injury, drugs or genetics. Memory resides in physical brain tissue. As does speech and everything else. We are different people at age 80 than we are at 18.


I am not aware of any possible physical explanation for consciousness. One should note, however, that we have no explanation for the physical world either. By what means to quarks exist?

If my car gets "injured", it performs differently. No vacuum? It doesn't stop so quickly. Head gasket blown? It depends upon where, possibly steam out of the exhaust. Alternator failed? Various things stop working out of the blue, and then the car stops.

If a car is faulty, it doesn't work properly; if a brain is faulty, it doesn't work properly. A car does not drive itself but the various bits must still function for it to work properly. If a brain does not drive itself, the various bits must still function for it to work properly.

Where is the evidence that consciousness is tied inextricably to the brain? There is none.


Julian F. G. W.

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Re: What if a 'Life after death' were suddenly proved?

#361023

Postby servodude » November 28th, 2020, 9:37 pm

jfgw wrote:Where is the evidence that consciousness is tied inextricably to the brain? There is none


It's not uncommon to watch the EEG activity therein to determine if you're "conscious" for medical procedures
- we've not yet been able to transplant consciousness

and when we do we can sell life after death
- sd


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