Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to johnstevens77,Bhoddhisatva,scotia,Anonymous,Cornytiv34, for Donating to support the site

Good God, Bad God and Satan

Religion and Philosophy
Forum rules
we are introducing this on a trial basis and that respect for other's views is important e.g. phrases like "your imaginary friend" or "you will go to hell" are not appropriate
GJHarney
Lemon Slice
Posts: 452
Joined: November 26th, 2016, 11:06 am
Been thanked: 23 times

Good God, Bad God and Satan

#28604

Postby GJHarney » February 3rd, 2017, 6:46 am

There have been a number of calculations of the numbers of people killed directly by God in the Old Testament (Noah's flood etc.), with around 25 million being a reasonable estimate based on estimated population sizes alongside very specific smaller numbers (Lot's wife etc.).

Against that 25 million killed by God (including deliberate ethnic cleansing, but not including other things like instructions to commit rape and incest), the Old Testament only indicates that Satan killed 10 people, Job's 7 sons and 3 daughters, although this was indirectly God's fault as God deliberately gave Satan the power to take them away to challenge Job's faith as a result of a bet between God and Satan.

So the question is, why does Satan get such a bad press?

But also, why are the ideas of those like the Cathars, who took the dualist view that the Old Testament God was actually evil, and in conflict with the good God of the New Testament (so you could actually view the God of the Old Testament as Satan), not far more popular given that within the context of the Old and New Testaments they appear to make far more sense than the 'traditional' Christian Church?

Vision25
2 Lemon pips
Posts: 172
Joined: November 6th, 2016, 11:04 pm
Has thanked: 37 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Good God, Bad God and Satan

#28666

Postby Vision25 » February 3rd, 2017, 10:40 am

GJHarney wrote:There have been a number of calculations of the numbers of people killed directly by God in the Old Testament (Noah's flood etc.), with around 25 million being a reasonable estimate based on estimated population sizes alongside very specific smaller numbers (Lot's wife etc.).

Against that 25 million killed by God (including deliberate ethnic cleansing, but not including other things like instructions to commit rape and incest), the Old Testament only indicates that Satan killed 10 people, Job's 7 sons and 3 daughters, although this was indirectly God's fault as God deliberately gave Satan the power to take them away to challenge Job's faith as a result of a bet between God and Satan.

So the question is, why does Satan get such a bad press?

But also, why are the ideas of those like the Cathars, who took the dualist view that the Old Testament God was actually evil, and in conflict with the good God of the New Testament (so you could actually view the God of the Old Testament as Satan), not far more popular given that within the context of the Old and New Testaments they appear to make far more sense than the 'traditional' Christian Church?


Before answering questions of the type like how many angels can dance on the head of a pin perhaps you should first question whether angels and/or pins actually exist in the first place.

Vision25

bulltraderpt
Lemon Slice
Posts: 312
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 6:46 am
Has thanked: 27 times
Been thanked: 15 times

Re: Good God, Bad God and Satan

#28698

Postby bulltraderpt » February 3rd, 2017, 12:07 pm

Vision25 wrote:
GJHarney wrote:There have been a number of calculations of the numbers of people killed directly by God in the Old Testament (Noah's flood etc.), with around 25 million being a reasonable estimate based on estimated population sizes alongside very specific smaller numbers (Lot's wife etc.).

Against that 25 million killed by God (including deliberate ethnic cleansing, but not including other things like instructions to commit rape and incest), the Old Testament only indicates that Satan killed 10 people, Job's 7 sons and 3 daughters, although this was indirectly God's fault as God deliberately gave Satan the power to take them away to challenge Job's faith as a result of a bet between God and Satan.

So the question is, why does Satan get such a bad press?

But also, why are the ideas of those like the Cathars, who took the dualist view that the Old Testament God was actually evil, and in conflict with the good God of the New Testament (so you could actually view the God of the Old Testament as Satan), not far more popular given that within the context of the Old and New Testaments they appear to make far more sense than the 'traditional' Christian Church?


Before answering questions of the type like how many angels can dance on the head of a pin perhaps you should first question whether angels and/or pins actually exist in the first place.


Vision25

That was funny Vision25, but it's too easy to score such points.

I think a better question might be, and this is from an atheist, perhaps we need Christianity to be re-instated because it's becoming abundantly clear a lot of people can't survive without some kind of rules. That sounds contrite and arrogant I know, but freedom to choose is great for those who can handle independent thought, but for the masses perhaps Christianity would also stop the march of less 'free thinking' and tolerating religions / ideology and also give the man and single mother on the street (wanting direction), something to follow.

quelquod
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1019
Joined: November 5th, 2016, 12:26 pm
Has thanked: 196 times
Been thanked: 191 times

Re: Good God, Bad God and Satan

#28934

Postby quelquod » February 4th, 2017, 10:37 am

I suppose that most people to whom concepts of God and the devil are relevant have the longer term in mind.

GJHarney
Lemon Slice
Posts: 452
Joined: November 26th, 2016, 11:06 am
Been thanked: 23 times

Re: Good God, Bad God and Satan

#29008

Postby GJHarney » February 4th, 2017, 6:24 pm

Vision25 wrote:Before answering questions of the type like how many angels can dance on the head of a pin perhaps you should first question whether angels and/or pins actually exist in the first place.

Vision25



I think you misunderstand the questions. This is not about the existence or otherwise of deities, but rather how a set of religious teachings that hang together less well than alternate interpretations have managed to dominate Christianity so much. This is an issue of history and psychology rather than theology.

The fact that the God portrayed in the Old Testament is so different to the one in the New invites the question on whether they are the same being in the first place, and while you can easily make the point that the representation of the divine was dependent on the type of society in each period (so use a materialist interpretation), from the perspective of traditional Christian teaching where there is continuity between Old and New Testaments that doesn't then explain how the contradictions between the actions of each God (or the same God in different time frames) are rarely addressed, and that those who did address them such as the Cathars are largely forgotten despite the apparently more logical way they addressed the problem.

The same is true of the representation of 'evil' in the Bible in the form of Satan, and given the Bible itself only has that being responsible for a fraction of the harm, death and destruction carried out by the 'good' God then again what is the psychology that explains how such thinking could ever gain normally unquestioning acceptance among believers in the Bible?

Vision25
2 Lemon pips
Posts: 172
Joined: November 6th, 2016, 11:04 pm
Has thanked: 37 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Good God, Bad God and Satan

#29248

Postby Vision25 » February 6th, 2017, 7:50 am

GJHarney wrote:
Vision25 wrote:Before answering questions of the type like how many angels can dance on the head of a pin perhaps you should first question whether angels and/or pins actually exist in the first place.

Vision25



I think you misunderstand the questions.


I didn't misunderstand your question, having said that your question was not particularly clear which I think is probably because you yourself are still trying to formulate your own ideas in this area.

Question Why was religion important in olden times?

Answer Apart from the fact that it helped the elite with a power base etc it was also useful for ordinary people.

Question How was it useful to ordinary people?

Answer It gives them a guide to life, i.e. don't borrow or lend money, form a mutual pair bond, treat other people as they treat you etc.

Question What is the modern day counterpart?

Answer We can see the opposite in that the welfare state never lets people face the outcomes of their actions. Clever people can figure out things for themselves in that the best way to get a good life is to deserve a good life. Thickies need all the social reinforcement they can get.

The question then becomes how do we keep all the useful things about religion when the base of the religion is no longer relevant.

You are fixated on the mere details of belief not the usefulness to society.

IOW you are asking the wrong question.

Vision25

GJHarney
Lemon Slice
Posts: 452
Joined: November 26th, 2016, 11:06 am
Been thanked: 23 times

Re: Good God, Bad God and Satan

#29377

Postby GJHarney » February 6th, 2017, 2:12 pm

Well with respect Vision I asked the questions that I don't have answers to, rather than the ones that I do. I am not asking about the role of religion to a given society but what determines the success or otherwise of a different interpretation of the same religious texts. So for example, while serious reform movements in the Catholic Church had existed before Luther (the English Lollards are a good example of this), the breakthrough success of Luther (and quickly afterwards Calvin and Zwingli) was based in my view on the development of society in Europe at the time (particularly the growth of towns and a developing middle class outside of the power of lords), something that was exposed particularly well in the German Peasant War that connected a social challenge to the power of the church with the theological one of the Protestant theologians in this period.

So while I understand the role of the early Church in Rome in codifying the New Testament and rejecting alternate versions of the Gospels (that was spectacularly highlighted with the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and many of these contemporary alternatives, which included Jesus marrying and having at least one child), what I am less sure about was why following that codification those in the gnostic tradition, including the Cathars, whose explanation of the 'Good God/Bad God' dichotomy was on the face of it far superior to that of the official church (that they were not the same God) failed to win the battle of ideas at the time. Is it to do with history and social development within those societies only, or is there a psychological aspect of why people would accept that a God who has done such terrible things in the Old Testament is at the same time the God of love shown in the Christian Gospels?

Vision25
2 Lemon pips
Posts: 172
Joined: November 6th, 2016, 11:04 pm
Has thanked: 37 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Good God, Bad God and Satan

#29418

Postby Vision25 » February 6th, 2017, 4:26 pm

GJHarney wrote:Well with respect Vision I asked the questions that I don't have answers to, rather than the ones that I do. I am not asking about the role of religion to a given society but what determines the success or otherwise of a different interpretation of the same religious texts. So for example, while serious reform movements in the Catholic Church had existed before Luther (the English Lollards are a good example of this), the breakthrough success of Luther (and quickly afterwards Calvin and Zwingli) was based in my view on the development of society in Europe at the time (particularly the growth of towns and a developing middle class outside of the power of lords), something that was exposed particularly well in the German Peasant War that connected a social challenge to the power of the church with the theological one of the Protestant theologians in this period.

So while I understand the role of the early Church in Rome in codifying the New Testament and rejecting alternate versions of the Gospels (that was spectacularly highlighted with the discovery of the Dead Sea Scrolls and many of these contemporary alternatives, which included Jesus marrying and having at least one child), what I am less sure about was why following that codification those in the gnostic tradition, including the Cathars, whose explanation of the 'Good God/Bad God' dichotomy was on the face of it far superior to that of the official church (that they were not the same God) failed to win the battle of ideas at the time. Is it to do with history and social development within those societies only, or is there a psychological aspect of why people would accept that a God who has done such terrible things in the Old Testament is at the same time the God of love shown in the Christian Gospels?


How is this important to ordinary people?

What difference does it make to ordinary people?

Angels on pins again.

Why does this matter seem important to you? (Your answer to this will be illuminating).

Vision25

GJHarney
Lemon Slice
Posts: 452
Joined: November 26th, 2016, 11:06 am
Been thanked: 23 times

Re: Good God, Bad God and Satan

#29536

Postby GJHarney » February 7th, 2017, 8:05 am

Well perhaps I was confused Vision, this section was I thought to discuss religion and philosophy, I wasn't aware that any discussion of religion and philosophy had to be something that only mattered to 'ordinary people' (whoever they are). Now of course the point could be made that the mass communication of ideas and the way such ideas are interpreted and reinterpreded is reasonably relevant to our society. It could also even be argued that how the Bible treats Satan as a personification of evil but without providing any evidence to that end is no different to how Big Brother treated Emanuel Goldstein in Nineteen Eighty Four, which in turn has relevance for discussions around propaganda and demonising 'the other' in real society in the era of 'alternative facts'. Equally it could be argued that the study if history, the examination of religious belief and the workings of psychology while all having relevance to modern society (and perhaps even to 'ordinary people') is also simply an interesting pursuit in its own right. You are free to engage or not with the genuine questions I am asking and that I have no firm answers to. Equally Vision I believe that I am free to ask those questions and without first having to prove that I am part of a practical philosophy evening class led by yourself.

jackdaww
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2081
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:53 am
Has thanked: 3203 times
Been thanked: 417 times

Re: Good God, Bad God and Satan

#29548

Postby jackdaww » February 7th, 2017, 9:12 am

it is astonishing that the GOD entity is so often quoted as a universally accepted fact .

i dont KNOW any god ( or satan ) , and neither does any one else .

:roll: :roll: :roll:

Vision25
2 Lemon pips
Posts: 172
Joined: November 6th, 2016, 11:04 pm
Has thanked: 37 times
Been thanked: 1 time

Re: Good God, Bad God and Satan

#29558

Postby Vision25 » February 7th, 2017, 10:23 am

GJHarney wrote:Well perhaps I was confused Vision, this section was I thought to discuss religion and philosophy, I wasn't aware that any discussion of religion and philosophy had to be something that only mattered to 'ordinary people' (whoever they are). Now of course the point could be made that the mass communication of ideas and the way such ideas are interpreted and reinterpreded is reasonably relevant to our society. It could also even be argued that how the Bible treats Satan as a personification of evil but without providing any evidence to that end is no different to how Big Brother treated Emanuel Goldstein in Nineteen Eighty Four, which in turn has relevance for discussions around propaganda and demonising 'the other' in real society in the era of 'alternative facts'. Equally it could be argued that the study if history, the examination of religious belief and the workings of psychology while all having relevance to modern society (and perhaps even to 'ordinary people') is also simply an interesting pursuit in its own right. You are free to engage or not with the genuine questions I am asking and that I have no firm answers to. Equally Vision I believe that I am free to ask those questions and without first having to prove that I am part of a practical philosophy evening class led by yourself.


I have no doubt your question is genuinely sincere.

Also we are both free to engage or not in anyway we see fit.

So, why is this important to you?

Btw, my name is Vision25

Vision25

GJHarney
Lemon Slice
Posts: 452
Joined: November 26th, 2016, 11:06 am
Been thanked: 23 times

Re: Good God, Bad God and Satan

#29629

Postby GJHarney » February 7th, 2017, 3:01 pm

jackdaww wrote:it is astonishing that the GOD entity is so often quoted as a universally accepted fact .

i dont KNOW any god ( or satan ) , and neither does any one else .

:roll: :roll: :roll:


Well with respect Jack that is a different debate and not relevant to what I am talking about, as this is about how theology is interpreted by believers of it. Or do you also look at Greek literature and its continuing influence and shrug that most of it is meaningless because the gods and demi-gods described within it don't, in your own personal opinion, exist? Or to put it another way, whether you or I believe that Elvis is still alive or not would not necessarily be at all relevant to a discussion on the profound contemporary influence of his music, now would it?

jackdaww
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2081
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:53 am
Has thanked: 3203 times
Been thanked: 417 times

Re: Good God, Bad God and Satan

#30023

Postby jackdaww » February 8th, 2017, 9:49 pm

GJHarney wrote:
jackdaww wrote:
it is astonishing that the GOD entity is so often quoted as a universally accepted fact .

i dont KNOW any god ( or satan ) , and neither does any one else .

:roll: :roll: :roll:


Well with respect Jack that is a different debate and not relevant to what I am talking about, as this is about how theology is interpreted by believers of it. Or do you also look at Greek literature and its continuing influence and shrug that most of it is meaningless because the gods and demi-gods described within it don't, in your own personal opinion, exist? Or to put it another way, whether you or I believe that Elvis is still alive or not would not necessarily be at all relevant to a discussion on the profound contemporary influence of his music, now would it?


==============

my comment seems to me to be quite appropriate for this board and this topic.

no , i do not look at greek literature , or any of the other myriads of bibles and texts , i dont have the time energy or intellect , nor will i accept the words of people who tell me what to do and believe.
:!:


Return to “The Meaning of Life”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests