The Lemon Fool

What with one thing or another (and another, and another, and another...!) over the last decade or more, I have been puzzling over the weirdness of people (i.e. of my 'fellow citizens', not myself. Obviously!).

When I first had free time to indulge the Internet at leisure I soon came to a conclusion that, at the time, was a sort of joke with a grain of truth. It was summed up by my personal Internet saying: "It wasn't until I got the Internet that I realised everyone else was insane."

That was then, this is now! Twenty or so years later it seems less funny, precisely as it apperas to be more true...

What's going on? (I can't be the only one asking this.)

Previously, I guess like most(?) people, I had an unconsidered view that everyone normal(?) was pretty well the same in essence under the skin. Of course people differ - in character and personality, opinions, tastes, political and religious views and values. We all knew this and accepted it as 'normal' (didn't we?). Some poor souls actually are "mad", but they are the exception, not the rule. At the end of the day we are all in this together, aren't we?

For some while now, increasingly, the above everyday, simple assumptions have not been working for me. They don't seem to explain current reality. I sometimes get the feeling that some of my 'fellow citizens' and myself are from different species...

How to explain this? I have come up with a new(?) dimension of human characterisation: such as Introvert vs Extrovert.

This is: Receptorvists vs Projectorvists

Receptorvists ("Hello!") tend to take in and be influenced by the world of reality as it is. They are therefore, in their opinions and views, to some extent modulated or limited by what seems to be the outside world. Projectorvists don't. They have an idea or ideas in their head about how the world is, or ought to be, and their opinions and views are projected outwards onto the world. To me, this seems a possible way of understanding, or at least illuminating, what is going on in the world today.

Is this a novel interpretation of human beings, or is it all already well known?

One could take this further into political opinions and views but, as this is TLF, I won't.

XFool wrote:Receptorvists ("Hello!") tend to take in and be influenced by the world of reality as it is. They are therefore, in their opinions and views, to some extent modulated or limited by what seems to be the outside world. Projectorvists don't. They have an idea or ideas in their head about how the world is, or ought to be, and their opinions and views are projected outwards onto the world.

Just out of interest, and without trying to make a point, have you studied psychology much?

RC

...No.

XFool wrote:This is: Receptorvists vs Projectorvists

Receptorvists ("Hello!") tend to take in and be influenced by the world of reality as it is. They are therefore, in their opinions and views, to some extent modulated or limited by what seems to be the outside world. Projectorvists don't. They have an idea or ideas in their head about how the world is, or ought to be, and their opinions and views are projected outwards onto the world. To me, this seems a possible way of understanding, or at least illuminating, what is going on in the world today.

Is this a novel interpretation of human beings, or is it all already well known?

I notice something similar. To me, people seem to have a model of world and how it works in their heads.

I observe that some people see stuff going on around them and constantly refine and update their world model to fit their observations (the pragmatists, of whom I am one). Others seem to have a fixed model of the world in their heads and rail and object to and deny anything they observe which contradicts or calls into question their fixed and immutable model. They desire to change the world to match their fixed model rather than change the model. Lefties seem to do this in particular.

Is this a different way of expressing your own, similar interpretation of human beings?

XFool wrote:Previously, I guess like most(?) people, I had an unconsidered view that everyone normal(?) was pretty well the same in essence under the skin. Of course people differ - in character and personality, opinions, tastes, political and religious views and values. We all knew this and accepted it as 'normal' (didn't we?).

Actually many people believe the first statement and disbelieve the second. Many years ago my mother was shocked by the Myers Briggs personality test. She had long struggled to understand why other people didn't think the way that she did. Surely, given that we are all the same (your first statement) then others MUST think the way she did.

Being part of a group who tested as having different personalities opened her eyes to the fact that people really are different.

"All the world is queer save thee and me, and even thou art a little queer." -- Robert Owen.

Mike4 wrote:I notice something similar. To me, people seem to have a model of world and how it works in their heads.

I observe that some people see stuff going on around them and constantly refine and update their world model to fit their observations (the pragmatists, of whom I am one). Others seem to have a fixed model of the world in their heads and rail and object to and deny anything they observe which contradicts or calls into question their fixed and immutable model. They desire to change the world to match their fixed model rather than change the model. Lefties seem to do this in particular.

Funny. I was thinking...

To be fair: perhaps it is a feature of people far from the political centre, whether left or right? But, as things look in the world today, I have to say...

Mike4 wrote:Is this a different way of expressing your own, similar interpretation of human beings?

Sounds very like it, I think.

XFool wrote:...No.

You might find food for thought in Jung's personality types:

The Myers-Briggs Type Inventory was devised to put Jungian typology to practical use outside the analytic process

https://www.thesap.org.uk/articles-on-jungian-psychology-2/about-analysis-and-therapy/typology/

RC

ReformedCharacter wrote:You might find food for thought in Jung's personality types:
https://www.thesap.org.uk/articles-on-jungian-psychology-2/about-analysis-and-therapy/typology/

Thanks for that reference. Interesting, but I think it may not be so appealing to my 'type'.

A bit too 'magic woo' for my liking:

"The framework for Jung’s typology has a mandala configuration, a squared circle divided into four with a cross radiating to or from the centre, carrying the promise of balance, union and the connection of opposites. For Jung the mandala was an expression of the psyche and a symbol of self-realisation and individuation. This configuration creates the diagram of a unitary and centralized psychological field in which a person is operating."

Also, some of it sounds a bit counterintuitive to me:

"Extraverted psychopathology was associated with defences against depression, whereas introversion was characterised by defences against emotional isolation."

Mike4 wrote:Others seem to have a fixed model of the world in their heads and rail and object to and deny anything they observe which contradicts or calls into question their fixed and immutable model. They desire to change the world to match their fixed model rather than change the model. Lefties seem to do this in particular.

And religionists even more so.

XFool wrote:Is this a novel interpretation of human beings, or is it all already well known?

One could take this further into political opinions and views but, as this is TLF, I won't.

It sounds very much like psychoanalysis's internal reality vs external reality.

GS

Mike4 wrote:Others seem to have a fixed model of the world in their heads and rail and object to and deny anything they observe which contradicts or calls into question their fixed and immutable model. They desire to change the world to match their fixed model rather than change the model. Lefties seem to do this in particular.

I disagree rightists are much more fixed - and in addition largely don't care to listen to what others think - and press ahead even when the real world disagrees - BREXIT anyone?

mark88man wrote:

Mike4 wrote:Others seem to have a fixed model of the world in their heads and rail and object to and deny anything they observe which contradicts or calls into question their fixed and immutable model. They desire to change the world to match their fixed model rather than change the model. Lefties seem to do this in particular.

I disagree rightists are much more fixed - and in addition largely don't care to listen to what others think - and press ahead even when the real world disagrees - BREXIT anyone?

Yes I'm inclined to agree. Maybe we should say political zealots of either persuasion.

In fact regarding brexit specifically I found it odd how most people settled on one side or the other with enthusiasm, and rejected all the arguments of the other. I seemed to be almost alone in finding it really difficult to decide which way to vote as I understood and agreed with lots of the arguments from both sides.

mark88man wrote:I disagree rightists are much more fixed - and in addition largely don't care to listen to what others think - and press ahead even when the real world disagrees - BREXIT anyone?

I give you Trump supporters... And indeed, as things stand, the whole US Republican Party.

Didn't politics used to be about how to run things? Or did I just imagine that? Now it seems to be about faith and what constitutes reality...

I find politics based on matters, in effect, like "Does the Earth orbit the Sun along with the other planets, or does the Sun along with the planets orbit the Earth?", to be 'unsatisfactory'.

I think the trend in politics on the right and to an extent on the left as manifested in both cases by personality politics is that it now seems much more important to be seen as in complete charge of something rather than actually caring about running that thing well.

Sir Humphrey would be spinning in his grave about the politicians trying to run things and the gap between politicians decide and civil servants execute has never been blurrier and that's not good

mark88man wrote:I think the trend in politics on the right and to an extent on the left as manifested in both cases by personality politics is that it now seems much more important to be seen as in complete charge of something rather than actually caring about running that thing well.

Sir Humphrey would be spinning in his grave about the politicians trying to run things and the gap between politicians decide and civil servants execute has never been blurrier and that's not good

Ah Sir Humphrey... what a wonderful character. The ultimate pragmatist!!

Agreed - I used to love watching reruns. But then they seemed to stop, and then politics became too awful to laugh about.

Might have to have another look - and work out if in my advancing years if I have a new favorite episode. I think I preferred the one where he was PM to the one's where he wasn't. Maybe the one where he became PM will stand the test of time if only as it seems so much more sensible than the current method

Mike4 wrote:In fact regarding brexit specifically I found it odd how most people settled on one side or the other with enthusiasm, and rejected all the arguments of the other. I seemed to be almost alone in finding it really difficult to decide which way to vote as I understood and agreed with lots of the arguments from both sides.

Me too. I was about 52% pro-Leave and 48% pro-Remain. Voted Leave.



GS

mark88man wrote:Agreed - I used to love watching reruns. But then they seemed to stop, and then politics became too awful to laugh about.

Might have to have another look - and work out if in my advancing years if I have a new favorite episode. I think I preferred the one where he was PM to the one's where he wasn't. Maybe the one where he became PM will stand the test of time if only as it seems so much more sensible than the current method

My favourite is the one where they are demonstrating outside Downing Street and Hacker says "I blame the parents", before he is told that his daughter is one of the demonstrators.

TJH

Jesus! Can this be true? What is happening to us? Is it something in the water? ( )

Quarter in UK believe Covid was a hoax, poll on conspiracy theories finds

The Guardian

Survey also finds one in seven say violence is fair response to alleged conspiracies such as ‘15-minute cities’

"The UK is home to millions more conspiracy theorists than most people realise, with almost a quarter of the population believing Covid-19 was probably or definitely a hoax, polling has revealed."

"The findings, on the eve of the first evidence session of the UK’s public inquiry into the pandemic, which killed more than 227,000 people in the UK, come from an April survey by Savanta for King’s College London (KCL) and the BBC."

"The general public underestimates the number of conspiracy theorists by approximately 4 million adults, according to the researchers who uncovered what they described as “shocking” attitudes."

XFool wrote:Jesus! Can this be true? What is happening to us? Is it something in the water? ( )

Quarter in UK believe Covid was a hoax, poll on conspiracy theories finds

The Guardian

Survey also finds one in seven say violence is fair response to alleged conspiracies such as ‘15-minute cities’

"The UK is home to millions more conspiracy theorists than most people realise, with almost a quarter of the population believing Covid-19 was probably or definitely a hoax, polling has revealed."

"The findings, on the eve of the first evidence session of the UK’s public inquiry into the pandemic, which killed more than 227,000 people in the UK, come from an April survey by Savanta for King’s College London (KCL) and the BBC."

"The general public underestimates the number of conspiracy theorists by approximately 4 million adults, according to the researchers who uncovered what they described as “shocking” attitudes."

I read it too, and had much the same reaction as you. 'What is happening to us', indeed.

RC