Church of England

[Leothebear]

The Church of Scotland is in exactly the same situation and many of their churches are being sold off. It is no loss in some cases but in many it is a great shame. The irony is that when plans are announced to close a village church, the locals, who may attend church only for the occasional christening, wedding or funeral are usually very vocal in their opposition to closure. Unfortunately they are not prepared to sign up to financially support the church.

Congregational numbers are dwindling and there seems nothing much can be done about it, although churches have always played a significant part in ‘welfare’ within a parish and still do with the promotion of foodbanks, child minding in some cases, and the like. What I mourn is the loss of wonderful music and amazing architecture in some cases at least.

And I like to think that the church provided some moral guidance which helped promote a civilised society. On a much broader issue, none of us knows whether there is a God or not and by the time we find out it will be too late. So I can understand agnostics but I find taking a stand as an atheist to be rather odd. I do not have the certainty for that.

Dod

I think the damage caused by the many sordid sex cases that have come to light has cancelled out any good they may have done. Same as the Catholic church - its influence on Irish society is a fraction of what it once was.

[didds]

I find taking a stand as an atheist to be rather odd. I do not have the certainty for that.

Dod

I do.

[88V8]

I find taking a stand as an atheist to be rather odd. I do not have the certainty for that.

I do.

So if you were in a falling lift, you wouldn't offer up a quick prayer, just in case?

I have never been a churchgoer. My mother was, but she did not pressure us. I enjoy the architecture, the sense of otherness, and more so in the Catholic high church the trappings, decoration, the flimflam, but I cannot claim to be a believer and I attend the ancient local CoE church only for funerals.
Even if the church reverted to what I regard as the 'proper' bible and prayer book, I am afraid I would not go to services.

Our church has a regular congregation in single figures, shares its vicar with three other churches, and if it were not for a substantial Victorian endowment would have closed long ago.

I think it is a shame, as the church was one of those national unifying elements, like Morecombe & Wise, and we will be the poorer for its passing.

V8

[MuddyBoots]

I do.

So if you were in a falling lift, you wouldn't offer up a quick prayer, just in case?

I have never been a churchgoer. My mother was, but she did not pressure us. I enjoy the architecture, the sense of otherness, and more so in the Catholic high church the trappings, decoration, the flimflam, but I cannot claim to be a believer and I attend the ancient local CoE church only for funerals.
Even if the church reverted to what I regard as the 'proper' bible and prayer book, I am afraid I would not go to services.

Our church has a regular congregation in single figures, shares its vicar with three other churches, and if it were not for a substantial Victorian endowment would have closed long ago.

I think it is a shame, as the church was one of those national unifying elements, like Morecombe & Wise, and we will be the poorer for its passing.

V8

Once my dad tried the 'Pascal's wager' argument on me which didn't Impress me. You've got more to lose if (Christian) religion is true than if it's false. Like eternal damnation because it's too late to convert after you're dead: apart from the philosophical arguments it just comes across as desperate.

The CofE used to position itself as a broad church with various wings you could choose from; Liberal, Anglo-Catholic, high church, low church etc. They will marry anyone who lives in their parish whether a member or not. But it's not enough to save them. Neither is it enough to save the uber liberal churches like the Unitarians, where you don't need to be Christian or even believe in God at all. Among the native Brits the religious fire is going out, or at least moving elsewhere.

[servodude]

The irony is that when plans are announced to close a village church, the locals, who may attend church only for the occasional christening, wedding or funeral are usually very vocal in their opposition to closure. Unfortunately they are not prepared to sign up to financially support the church.

there are patterns here.

CF village pubs, and once a year visitors. To financially support that pub doesn't even need anyone to "sign up" - just walk in and buy a drink (soft drinks are available ).

Same same .

Some very good pubs were formerly churches...

[gryffron]

So if you were in a falling lift, you wouldn't offer up a quick prayer, just in case?

Ah yes, but who to? You wouldn't want to get it wrong. Almost all religions state you're damned for worshipping a false god, even if you've lived the life of a saint. Safer not to pray at all. Very few religions damn agnostics.

Gryff

[Charlottesquare]

In my urban area the evangelical-charismatic CofE church is thriving, and attracting students and young professionals as well as locals. The other churches are struggling to get attendees at their Sunday services, but their community activities for families, the elderly and so on are popular.

Imo the CofE is still seen as the establishment church, in contrast with more grassroots movements like the Methodists and Baptists, yet the decline is systemic across all the indigenous churches because society overall has changed so much. I hear a lot of comments to the effect that the new religion of postmodern progressives is all this "wokery" with its secular utopianism and universalism.

Personally I'm moving towards Paganism, which is a religion that declined here a long time ago yet is undergoing a revival and reconstruction. So there's always hope. We will always need something to act as the glue which holds families and communities together - the CofE was imposed on us by the monarchy, so perhaps it's not as deeply rooted in our national psyche as small-c conservatives like to think. But I do appreciate the aesthetic of that church.

Never underestimate the draw of religion for young professionals when they start thinking about schools and the cost of private education - amazing how many thirty somethings find Jesus...

Am sure that is a helpful boost in our local church (Catholic) as it , and the local Catholic primary, are in the catchment for the best Edinburgh Catholic secondary. (Certainly the route we took with our kids but in mitigation their mother and her family are Catholics)

The problem the Catholic churches have, having already reduced their number of operating church buildings, is finding priests, up here a fair few have needed to be imported from Poland as far fewer home grown and one priest often has to cover more than one church, seems to me with them it will be less congregation and more manpower issues that place continuance under strain)

[didds]

I do.

So if you were in a falling lift, you wouldn't offer up a quick prayer, just in case?
V8

nope.

[didds]

Some very good pubs were formerly churches...

which probably says more about modern Britain than anything else notwithstanding the issues surrounding pubs generally

[MuddyBoots]

So if you were in a falling lift, you wouldn't offer up a quick prayer, just in case?

Ah yes, but who to? You wouldn't want to get it wrong. Almost all religions state you're damned for worshipping a false god, even if you've lived the life of a saint. Safer not to pray at all. Very few religions damn agnostics.

Gryff

Well I thought agnosticism was created in the 19th C by Thomas Huxley which was a bit late for updating the scriptures.

A lot of people, perhaps older generations, still have a vestigial attachment to cultural Christianity as the numbers on the census and hospital admission forms are much higher than church members. And I remember reading somewhere that the C of E used to count its membership by the number of attendees on the big festivals of Easter and Christmas, but that might be out of date now.

[servodude]

Some very good pubs were formerly churches...

which probably says more about modern Britain than anything else notwithstanding the issues surrounding pubs generally

How modern are we talking; the three I visited over Christmas have been pubs for decades..

[Adamski]

Some research (church times 27/5/22) on extinction of Christianity using R number, from Covid-19, estimates:

Church of Wales, Scotland 0.7
Methodist 0.85
CoE, Catholic 0.9
Baptist 1
Pentecostal 1-1.1

So the historic churches to die out mid this century, 2040s, and the Pentecostal and Evangelical filling some of the gap.

So in future in Britain it'll be vast majority of 'nones' and atheism with churches largely closed and visible minority of Muslim and Evangelical. When this generation passes on there'll be a fire sale of the church buildings as They'll need to funds when donations dry up as bounds to happen.

[scrumpyjack]

which probably says more about modern Britain than anything else notwithstanding the issues surrounding pubs generally

How modern are we talking; the three I visited over Christmas have been pubs for decades..

One of my cousins bought a lovely medieval church in west Herefordshire about 50 years ago and converted it into a private house. It still looks unchanged from the outside. Inside it was very well converted, though some ardent Christians (like one of our uncles ) might not like that what was the altar is now the kitchen with a wonderful stained glass window!

He had to cope with detailed restrictions re gravestones, access to relatives of this buried etc. Not sure if he has a problem with ghosts

[didds]

which probably says more about modern Britain than anything else notwithstanding the issues surrounding pubs generally

How modern are we talking; the three I visited over Christmas have been pubs for decades..

being fair I hadn't considered it being that far ago etc ... but then again church attendance has been in decline for at least about a century (Ive a link elsewhere in this thread somewhere )

[kempiejon]

Some very good pubs were formerly churches...

which probably says more about modern Britain than anything else notwithstanding the issues surrounding pubs generally

A tatty old pub up the road from me is now an off licence.

[bungeejumper]

One of my cousins bought a lovely medieval church in west Herefordshire about 50 years ago and converted it into a private house. It still looks unchanged from the outside. Inside it was very well converted, though some ardent Christians (like one of our uncles ) might not like that what was the altar is now the kitchen with a wonderful stained glass window!

He had to cope with detailed restrictions re gravestones, access to relatives of this buried etc. Not sure if he has a problem with ghosts

I once thought briefly about buying a chapel that had once belonged to a coal mine, long disused. A beautiful rural location, all graves to be cleared by the diocese authorities - and what was more, it came with an additional parcel of land for car parking, about 100 yards further down the lane.

Why the separate patch of land, I asked? Plague pit**, they said. The byelaws say you're not allowed to dig it, but nobody knows exactly where it is, so you get the extra land which you can sink your foundations into.

Much, much later, I was to discover that two people had been brutally murdered in the churchyard after a Victorian mugging that had gone wrong. But, at that moment, it was the inscription on the lintel over the doorway that put an end to my wonderings. "We Must All Die", it said. A fitting legend for a coal mine, but not a very homely touch.

BJ

(** We have a plague pit directly across the lane from where we are now, but its location is known, and the bacillus should be dead by now. Not that plague is a threat anyway in the age of antibiotics. Long may it remain so.)

[stewamax]

Our village parish church has an adjacent Victorian vicarage with wonderful vista over the graveyard.
Slight shame, I thought; wonder how the occupants feel.
Then I remembered that the owner is an eminent pathologist...

[servodude]

Our village parish church has an adjacent Victorian vicarage with wonderful vista over the graveyard.
Slight shame, I thought; wonder how the occupants feel.
Then I remembered that the owner is an eminent pathologist...

??!?
...ah ! That's not the occupants I thought you meant

[bungeejumper]

Our village parish church has an adjacent Victorian vicarage with wonderful vista over the graveyard.
Slight shame, I thought; wonder how the occupants feel.
Then I remembered that the owner is an eminent pathologist...

??!?
...ah ! That's not the occupants I thought you meant

Which reminds me of the time I was selling my cottage in Somerset, which also had a fine view over the 15th century perpendicular church and its graveyard. (Yes, I do have a history of buying these sorts of places.....)

A couple of heavy bikers came to view the house - leathers, chains, boots, tattoos, the whole works. Londoners, judging by their accents. A great gleaming Kawasaki parked outside in the road.

At first it all went rather well. They liked the house a lot. Then we went upstairs to the landing, and she suddenly stopped and turned pale. And pointed out of the window.

"Graves," she whispered......

"GRAVES!", he yelled. And they were down the stairs and out of the house within seconds.

That's what a diet of zombie horror films will do to you. And I hadn't even time to tell them that two of the house's previous owners were buried against the nearest wall of the churchyard......

BJ

[stewamax]

Stories of 'haunting' always seem to be about a place that the haunter lived or worked or traversed or was killed.
On this basis, a graveyard is the least likely place to be haunted, except perhaps by the spirits of grieving relatives.

The C of E has a few approved exorcists (really), but they are not allowed to practise except with the agreement of the diocesan bishop in each case.