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Baby Charlie?

Religion and Philosophy
Forum rules
we are introducing this on a trial basis and that respect for other's views is important e.g. phrases like "your imaginary friend" or "you will go to hell" are not appropriate
beeswax
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Baby Charlie?

#66098

Postby beeswax » July 10th, 2017, 3:35 pm

Having just raised the little one on the polite topics forum I thought it worth while asking on this forum, further questions about God and the religious angle as the Pope is involved too..and of course so few religious posters here it may not get much response if any so no worries either way but as a former Christian my questions are as follows..

Is God aware of Baby Charlie and if so, why doesn't he act and answer many people's prayers including the Pope?

The whole essence of the Abrahamic faiths is that God does see and act in the world and indeed millions pray each and every day to this God they believe is active and so what do they all think about when he doesn't appear to act? Do they think they are wasting all their time on their knees bowing and scraping to their God and maybe just maybe, he is not active in the world as they believe? They MUST think about this as that is the whole essence of their faith isn't it?

Some Christians certainly will argue that baby Charlie will go to heaven and so be in a better place than he is now and for all eternity too. But that's just their belief system with no evidence. And then what happens when baby Charlie's parents die without converting to Christianity who were told that one day they will all meet up again? The Christian belief is that cannot happen UNLESS they accept Jesus as their Saviour.

Do they believe that baby Charlie is a 'sinner' and therefore needs saving and if as the Catholic Church used to preach that baby Charlie cannot be accepted into heaven unless he was baptised into the Christian faith?

I would love to ask the Pope and the Archbishop of Canterbury these questions of course but would expect a blank look and a shrug of shoulders and God moves in mysterious ways and answers prayers in his own time and of course if he dies he will be with God for ever and then next they will say prayers for him and then go about their business as usual without thinking too seriously about what it is they do believe...but 2 billion believers will carry on as usual too..

Jesus said to his followers to ask anything in his name and God will answer it as would he give his child a stone instead of bread? That is one of the most profound statements in the whole of the new testament but so few Christians ever quote it. Why not? Remember that this is the Son of God or God himself that made that very statement too, so no misinterpretation.

vrdiver
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Re: Baby Charlie?

#66107

Postby vrdiver » July 10th, 2017, 3:53 pm

I had a similar conversation with a friend a little while ago. As a non-believer I will cite examples of pain and suffering and ask why does God allow such cruelty? Charlie (11 months old and with extreme brain damage) being but the latest example of a human being that appears to be suffering through no fault of their own and whose parents, like any loving parents, are going through hell in a very real-world meaning of the term.

My religious friend would explain to me that we cannot comprehend God; what appears cruel or insensitive is not for us to judge, since in God's bigger picture there is a reason not visible to us here on earth. He would also say that we should continue to pray, to ask for God's mercy and support, but not to demand it as the price of faith, but to instead accept "thy will be done".

A little like the earlier models of the earth being at the centre of the solar system, the religious arguments for the existence of God become so convoluted and full of unprovable constructs that I reject it, based on lack of evidence (e.g. Charlie and his family's suffering) and some small knowledge of the nature of man.

IF there was a god, I could only imagine him as some sort of gardener, weeding and hoeing to produce a healthy crop, but not overly worried about the collateral damage to seedlings that sprouted in the wrong place at the wrong time. Luckily my view of what a god is likely to be is unlikely to gain cult status :lol:

beeswax
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Re: Baby Charlie?

#66131

Postby beeswax » July 10th, 2017, 4:32 pm

vrdiver wrote:I had a similar conversation with a friend a little while ago. As a non-believer I will cite examples of pain and suffering and ask why does God allow such cruelty? Charlie (11 months old and with extreme brain damage) being but the latest example of a human being that appears to be suffering through no fault of their own and whose parents, like any loving parents, are going through hell in a very real-world meaning of the term.

My religious friend would explain to me that we cannot comprehend God; what appears cruel or insensitive is not for us to judge, since in God's bigger picture there is a reason not visible to us here on earth. He would also say that we should continue to pray, to ask for God's mercy and support, but not to demand it as the price of faith, but to instead accept "thy will be done".

A little like the earlier models of the earth being at the centre of the solar system, the religious arguments for the existence of God become so convoluted and full of unprovable constructs that I reject it, based on lack of evidence (e.g. Charlie and his family's suffering) and some small knowledge of the nature of man.

IF there was a god, I could only imagine him as some sort of gardener, weeding and hoeing to produce a healthy crop, but not overly worried about the collateral damage to seedlings that sprouted in the wrong place at the wrong time. Luckily my view of what a god is likely to be is unlikely to gain cult status :lol:


Its a good point about hell when Christians try and say that is the eternal punishment for just 'not' being a believer which is not defensive in this world or the next and as you say there is not one Pope or religious person that is going through hell as baby Charlie's parents are doing right now and maybe even Charlie himself and so let them try and talk about hell to them if you please.

Some prominent Jewish Rabbi was making the same point to the Christian community that 6 million Jews were murdered in cold blood in WW2 and yet they preach that God would then send them to another hell even though they have believed in Jehova a damn sight longer than any Christian has...

But none of it makes sense and why believers would rather not engage and walk away. Its much easier!

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Re: Baby Charlie?

#67369

Postby Stonge » July 14th, 2017, 8:22 pm

If God is active in the world did he influence over half the UK population to vote for Brexit? Or was it the devil?

beeswax
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Re: Baby Charlie?

#67439

Postby beeswax » July 15th, 2017, 10:12 am

Stonge wrote:If God is active in the world did he influence over half the UK population to vote for Brexit? Or was it the devil?


Oh definitely the Devil.....;)

beeswax
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Re: Baby Charlie?

#72816

Postby beeswax » August 7th, 2017, 9:55 pm

I was thinking again about how the Pope deals with this question in his own mind and all those millions of Christians and others who think that their God is active in the world and despite the Pope and them praying directly to God for baby Charlie, he dies anyway? How can they then continue in their belief system as before as though nothing happened?

The Catholic Church says the Pope is directly descended from St Peter who was the main disciple of Jesus and Jesus told him and the other disciples that they would do 'greater' things than even he did, including raising the dead. Now how does the Pope deal with that question? Does he assume the age of miracles disappeared after all the disciples died? Does he assume that God is watching but does nothing even though the NT is explicit that God will answer our prayers,indeed Jesus said to ask ANYTHING in his name and God will do it....How then does the Pope deal with the NT that the Church daily preaches as God's word and therefore infallible?

As a former Christian, I have asked these questions myself and can only come up with one or two answers..Christians who say that God is a mystery and we therefore cannot understand him or they say that God answers ALL our prayers but in his own way etc and they will even say that at least baby Charlie is now in heaven with the Pope saying he is now being looked after by the Father! They may even say that its possible that Charlie is now in heaven whereas had he lived, he may have gone off the rails and not done so etc...Some believers even say, its a fallen world and these things are expected..

One answer is to look at ALL the evidence and compare it with what is 'claimed' as God's truth in their holy text and then that should tell us that God does not 'seem' to be active in the world, that miracles do not happen and that God does not answer the millions of prayers that are said on a daily basis and that no matter how hard they all prayed, including the Pope and all his Cardinals, they could not save baby Charlie...

I just wonder how they deal with that and how they can continue on as before without at least some scepticism they are somehow being hoodwinked? And of course they are 'hoodwinking' their flock. The other way they deal with it is not to think at all..as its a nice easy job and church is a nice place to go each Sunday and have a good day out other than staying in bed or doing the garden etc...

But the very next time they open their bibles, they may just wonder what is really God's truth and what is man made fairy tales?


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