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Running (and jogging) regimes

Fitness tips, Relaxation, Mind and Body
vrdiver
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Running (and jogging) regimes

#256796

Postby vrdiver » October 9th, 2019, 3:05 pm

A branch from viewtopic.php?p=256789#p256792 so as to not clutter up that thread.

Hoping to get advice on people's strategies to embed running into their routine, as well as hints and tips on suitable gear.

VRD

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Re: Running (and jogging) regimes

#256799

Postby OLTB » October 9th, 2019, 3:20 pm

vrdiver wrote:

Hoping to get advice on people's strategies to embed running into their routine, as well as hints and tips on suitable gear.

VRD


I also would like to hear about the mechanics of running/jogging as I heard that running heel-toe is bad for you and that you should run on your toes for better leg alignment.

I have no idea if this is correct, so if anyone is running on tippy-toes and finds it easier, that would be great to hear!

Cheers, OLTB.

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Re: Running (and jogging) regimes

#256802

Postby EssDeeAitch » October 9th, 2019, 3:41 pm

Having run probably 100 or more marathons and ultra-marathons (including one 100 miler) I may have some insight into your question.

First thing is even before running is to go to a doctor to get an all clear and then to visit a specialist running shoe shop and buy a pair of running shoes that will suit your particular gait. You simply cannot buy an off the shelf pair as they probably will not compliment your foot fall style and cause or exacerbate an injury You will either pronate, overpronate or Supinate, this link will give information https://www.verywellfit.com/pronation-d ... on-3436329

Start by setting yourself a tangible goal, say to run 5km or 21km or 100km by a certain date which is realistic. Running "to get fitter" or "to lose weight" are in my experience not strong enough motivators beyond a short period of time. By running for an achievement you will get fitter and you will lose weight.

If you have never run before, start by going for a 10 minute walk and break out into a jog a few times. Extend the walk distance and jog frequency/distance on each walk. By starting slowly you will go faster in the long term. The ratio of walk to run will swap over and in a fairly short period of time, say two weeks, you will be running the full distance (which will be governed by what you personally find comfortable and rewarding).

The act of running is aggressive and all runners suffer from micro tears in muscle fiber as well as lactic acid build up so your legs will be sore. That's good, it means you are working well but it also means that you can and must build in recovery time. Run four days a week, rest for three.

Only increase your weekly mileage by 10% per week, this will reduce the chances of injury and reduce the muscle soreness. Again, by going slowly you will speed up. It means keep a log book to record all of your runs. Or more likely, register on Strava where you can upload your runs via a Garmin or similar device. http://www.strava.com

Week one - five or six 10 to 30 minute walks breaking out into a few jogs for one minute
Week two - five or six 20 to 40 minute walks breaking out into a few jogs for two minutes or more
Week three - four or five 30 to 45 minute runs with recovery walks as appropriate
Week four - four 30 to 45 minute runs with recovery walks if needed


Suitable gear. Proper, fitted running shoes are an absolute imperative. Beyond that, shorts, any old tee shirts as well as a rain jacket, a beany for when it gets colder and gloves will be useful as well. Nothing fancy, spend little on gear (except shoes, spend a lot if it is needed) to start and you will work out what is best in due course.

I hope that I have not gone off on a tangent here and am always happy to offer up more advice beyond this general running intro month.

Good luck!

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Re: Running (and jogging) regimes

#256803

Postby EssDeeAitch » October 9th, 2019, 3:44 pm

OLTB wrote:
vrdiver wrote:

Hoping to get advice on people's strategies to embed running into their routine, as well as hints and tips on suitable gear.

VRD


I also would like to hear about the mechanics of running/jogging as I heard that running heel-toe is bad for you and that you should run on your toes for better leg alignment.

I have no idea if this is correct, so if anyone is running on tippy-toes and finds it easier, that would be great to hear!

Cheers, OLTB.


It's a very rare style to be honest and not something that I have ever heard a road runner adopting (I cannot comment on track runners). Leg alignment is crucial and that is where the correct running shoe comes in rather than changing a natural foot strike (which would be a nightmare to achieve) . Do not run on a pair bought from Mr Ashley just because they look good and fit the budget, buy proper running shoes to sort that problem out as I mention above.

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Re: Running (and jogging) regimes

#256814

Postby kyu66 » October 9th, 2019, 5:52 pm

OLTB wrote:
vrdiver wrote:

Hoping to get advice on people's strategies to embed running into their routine, as well as hints and tips on suitable gear.

VRD


I also would like to hear about the mechanics of running/jogging as I heard that running heel-toe is bad for you and that you should run on your toes for better leg alignment.

I have no idea if this is correct, so if anyone is running on tippy-toes and finds it easier, that would be great to hear!

Cheers, OLTB.

Heel-toe is the natural way we walk - heel strike, mid-foot roll and then push off the toe, so a 3 stage process. As you say it is not a very good way to run as it places a large amount of stress on the heel.

Running on your toes is a natural way to sprint, so is only suitable for short sprint-like distances - not for running/jogging.

The most natural way to run/jog is stages 2 and 3 of the 3 stage process we use when walking, namely landing on your mid-to-fore foot with your foot below your knee/hip and then roll onto the toe for the push off.

However, as already mentioned by EssDeeAitch, we all have an individual gait so there will be some personal variation on running action so there needs to be a bit of trial and error to find exactly what works the best for you.

Lots of people get into running and then get all sorts of injuries purely from poor form/mechanics. Running is probably the only sporting activity people try without any tuition from a coach/trainer, therefore I would give serious consideration to getting some tuition on basic running form to prevent future injury etc. Good form is better for your body, prevents injury and hence should improve your enjoyment and you will be more likely to stick at it.

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Re: Running (and jogging) regimes

#256830

Postby nimnarb » October 9th, 2019, 7:45 pm

Interesting thread, pls see my post on Beerpigs before it moved over here....I run on the spot indoors basically(on carpet)..yesterday did 9 miles without shoes, and understand your point about wearing a good pair of running shoes. However, look at those Kenyan runners, no shoes in training and they run Marathons daily. Agreed, we are all built differently and they grew up like that. Although I have a permanent tear on my ankle which is swollen most of the time, it actually has improved with me running and occasionally I can feel it in the kneecaps, but it's minor.
My heartbeat used to when I started this, range from 100 to 150 bpm but I now use deep breathing techniques whilst running and its a constant 75-90 at present. Any tips, comments, advice, good or bad(bad as in I shouldn't be doing this) with this technique I am using or how to improve upon it?

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Re: Running (and jogging) regimes

#256833

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » October 9th, 2019, 7:46 pm

Ok,

This is my running story. I started distance running+jogging in my mid 20s, and paid little attention to my legs and knees etc. Am naturally quite slim and athletic so at the time it came pretty natural. Some friend of mine misadvised me (I now believe) and told me to get trainers with padding on the heel and land on the heel and roll forward. I now personally believe this to be bad - at least for me. So I keep running fairly regularly through to my late 30s, usually about 10k runs between 2 to 5 times a week. Sometimes I'd break off for a few weeks/months since I also got very into swimming, and demands of family life started to crop up etc. Around this time (late 30s, early 40s I guess) I started to get aches mainly in my right knee. Then I remember that I'm not MotorcycleBoy for nothing, indeed from my teens to age 25 to used to own and ride a lot of m-bikes, and kickstarted (right leg) most of them including my 500 twin. Motorbikes can be very unforgiving and kick back through the starter, plus sometimes one's foot slips off the start grip and you whack the road/pavement *hard*. But being an idiot at the time I carried on regardless, till meeting Mel and forgetting about m-bikes. I now wonder whether or not I did the knee some slight damage in those years....

Anyway, as I ran into my mid 40s, I would notice slight ache to my right knee, usually the day after a running, and I started to think, that perhaps I should stop and just focus on my swimming. About that time I learnt that a lot of people in my work, were into "bare foot" and minimalist running, and used to wear the rather distinctive vibram 5-fingers shoes. I used to think that this was insane, and poopoed the concept, but they stuck me out, that the major problem with 80s/90s style trainers which have muchos padding was i) they encouraged you to heel strike which means you have a tendency to land with a straightened leg and ii) reliance on the padding combined with the style encouraged means that the soft tissues (i.e. ligaments, muscles etc.) aren't being used properly to provide any natural springiness and elasticity in your technique.

Alas one of my buddies, even sent me a really nice video, which contrasted the differences between the "classic style" which emphasised landing more toward the heel with an extended leg, allowing shocks and loads to be transmitted parallel to your joints, vs. the "minimalist style" which is more about landing further forward (around the "ball" of the foot) with a more bent knee. From the videos it became apparent that in the minimalist style the body's soft tissues (which recover and strengthen) are being employed to take the dynamic loads of the exercise.

Obviously I've lost the link, and I can't find it anywhere! I did find this which is kind of similar, but a bit newer.

Anyway, I decided at about age 48 to get back into running, but using the minimalist method.

The first shoes I used were a really worn out pair of these https://www.mountainwarehouse.com/footw ... 10925.aspx I think which I pinched from my wife Mel. The sole and insole were really worn and compressed which was what I wanted.

The next pair I actually bought were these, unfortunately you can't get them from Amazon (or anywhere?) anymore:
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Zakti-Touch-Ba ... B06ZZMYM1Z

My philosophy with running shoes, is *not* to spend a great deal, because I'm often dissatisfied with shoes so I would much rather buy a few different cheapo pairs and see what works best than waste a lot on a pricey pair that end up being horrid. I won't ever make that mistake again not after buying Merrill trail glove when they were about £80. They just did not work for me. I'm size 8 or thereabouts and I bought size 8. They just felt too tight, and I've not even got particularly wide feet. What I now wear is these. They have a wide toe area, as I said I don't have wide feet, but I believe that when one lands the toes will want to splay slightly, so I like to give them room. Like lots of the other running shoes they have a removeable insole, which did remove to make them more minimalist. I probably differ from what some people will say, but I personally don't buy the gait analysis in a shoe shop thing, or seeing a physio or doc. The reason for me is i) I believe that there are so many different opinions ii) I feel by employing a minimalist style, I'm not trying to coax my feet and legs into an artifically neutral stance, which may stress them somewhat. I would sooner listen to my body, not overdo it, and let it find it's natural best stance. FWIW I know from watching and tuning into to myself that I supinate very slightly.

Regards the actual running, fortunately I had a lot of advice from my colleague. Like EssDeeAitch he has done lots of marathons, and one ultra earlier this year. Just like they said, because you are using your body's natural springing mechanisms (your muscles) the minimalist style takes a while to strengthen yourself. I found it predictably tough on the calf's at first, but they toughened up gradually. You have to "listen to your body" and sometimes, I would plain stop running and just walk for a lot of the sessions at first, which were probably between 2.5k and 5k. Once my calves toughened then the aches gradually got lower finding areas with less developed muscles. Now that my running muscles are good again, I do stretch out my legs at least 2x a day. I just sit and stretch my legs flat, then touch my toes, then grab all my toes, gradually bending my back and slowly putting a big pull onto my toes pulling them back towards me. Once you get into it, you can get a beautiful stretch from your back, upper+lower legs, feet and toes in one stance, and then I hold this for say 30-40 seconds. Like many minimalists will confirm with this style you'll run with a slightly higher cadence and have slightly more bend in the knees.

I live in the fens and the roads are awful and unsafe. Fortunately I have an area 2 miles away with several miles of "droves" (single track rural tarmac) in the fields with a couple of big woods either side. I typically run a few K on the drove, then a few in the wood, then back out onto the drove. When I was actively building up distance I used this https://www.mappedometer.com/ thing to measure what I was running and come up with routes, and just gradually build up.

Barefoot. One day I made the mistake "giving the Merrells another try". I instantly regretted the decision, and I hobbled around a bit for the first 3 K prior to the wood. Seeing as it was a lovely summer sunday morning, when I got the wood I though "Bo!!ocks to this", what's this barefoot stuff, all about, these fecking shoes are murder, so I took off my shoes and socks and ran through the wood barefoot. The feeling of the rabbit-trimmed damp grass and the peat patches was heavenly, I can thoroughly recommend it, but only once one has built up decent running strength. The drawbacks of course are twigs, cones, tree roots, and thorns. I've never trod in any dog sh!t yet! But the other fantastic thing is it (barefoot) makes you absolutely aware of every single foot landing, it makes the run a different experience and it is very easy to forget any kind of fatigue and just really get into the feel of it. I do aim to do, weather permitting, a certain amount of my running barefooted.

Finally my routine is usually a 12.5k run on Saturday or Sunday morning. I then also try to run this same route on 2 weekday afternoon/evenings. It's tough with ferrying the odd teenager, work, and mowing our lawns. But I usually manage it. This week I'm pretty shattered, since I also decided to lose some weight a few months back and that combined with running+other activities have wasted me. I'm only 5'8" and slim frame, so when I weighed in July at about 12 st I was pi$$ed off. I've now got down to 10.25st and what with very active in garden (0.6 acre to mow with push mower, and loads of hedging to trim etc.) and garden, I'm only running once midweek this week. My main advice to any other old timer wanting to return to running is *gradually* build up distance, don't let yourself get carried away with suddenly doing a lot more distance, listen to your body, be prepared to stop and walk for a bit if ness, and don't try to increase speed and distance in the same session. And lastly enjoy that endorphin hit you get post run! :D

Sorry to waffle on a bit, hope this helps, or at least provides some entertainment,
Matt

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Re: Running (and jogging) regimes

#256881

Postby EssDeeAitch » October 10th, 2019, 7:32 am

nimnarb wrote:However, look at those Kenyan runners, no shoes in training and they run Marathons daily. Agreed, we are all built differently and they grew up like that.


It is certainly true that some people manage perfectly well running barefoot as they have a neutral foot strike and no muscle, ankle, knee or hip issues that can cause "lopsidedness" and compensation and thus pain/injuries. Bio mechanical perfection is a state that few people enjoy but the advance in running shoe technology allows for the less perfectly designed to run long distances pain free (or with reduced pain as was my particular case).

Running on grass is of course much more forgiving than road running.

Running with proper, person specific running shoes helps tremendously. Can't emphasise this enough.

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Re: Running (and jogging) regimes

#256885

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » October 10th, 2019, 8:07 am

EssDeeAitch wrote:
nimnarb wrote:However, look at those Kenyan runners, no shoes in training and they run Marathons daily. Agreed, we are all built differently and they grew up like that.


It is certainly true that some people manage perfectly well running barefoot as they have a neutral foot strike and no muscle, ankle, knee or hip issues that can cause "lopsidedness" and compensation and thus pain/injuries. Bio mechanical perfection is a state that few people enjoy but the advance in running shoe technology allows for the less perfectly designed to run long distances pain free (or with reduced pain as was my particular case).

Running on grass is of course much more forgiving than road running.

Yes, definitely. Out in the Fens we have a mostly peat base, and in the woods we get areas where the grass has been worn/nibbled away so you can some nice smooth stretches of peat which probably optimal.

Having said that earlier in the year, once I'd come out of the woods barefoot, I'd often remain barefoot on the parts of the drove which were still smooth tarmac (it's a few years since it's last surface-repair so it's getting crumbled and gritty in some areas). This is not something I do much now since it's colder in the early morning and evenings, and furthermore the drove has big farm depot and is surrounded by arable land, so from harvest+rainy season onwards the tractors drop a lot of grit/gravel on the tarmac and barefooting on this is obviously stupid. However barefoot going from the woods to the (smooth, grit free warm) tarmac is an interesting experience. One has to firstly slow right down, and let oneself adjust to a much lighter footfall, but with a very light ball of foot strike and gentle roll back, I find I can actually speed up a lot, and observe how much *less* effort running barefoot on this surface is compared with the woods. And that is because running barefoot in a wood requires a lot of physical effort (weaving around obstacles and timing foot lands regards tree roots etc.) and mental effort of permanently clocking exactly what the current running surface is like.

Running with proper, person specific running shoes helps tremendously. Can't emphasise this enough.

Difficult to disagree on this one! And certainly not want to start a footwear war. However, I think that for many perfect running shoes are going to be impossible to buy. For instance one of my feet is slightly wider, and one is slightly longer. Some people may have a slightly longer leg on one side, I used know a female runner with this. Plus various tilts and cambers and surfaces most surely mean that a perfect shoe is somewhat of a moving target. That's why my mindset is that of going for a minimal footwear and training ones muscles, stamina and flexibility very well to cope with reasonable running target. But who knows? I'm 51 now, so I'll probably have to wait a couple more decades before I know whether this choice has been a good or bad move.......a bit like investing!

Matt

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Re: Running (and jogging) regimes

#256887

Postby EssDeeAitch » October 10th, 2019, 8:23 am

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:
EssDeeAitch wrote:
nimnarb wrote:However, look at those Kenyan runners, no shoes in training and they run Marathons daily. Agreed, we are all built differently and they grew up like that.


It is certainly true that some people manage perfectly well running barefoot as they have a neutral foot strike and no muscle, ankle, knee or hip issues that can cause "lopsidedness" and compensation and thus pain/injuries. Bio mechanical perfection is a state that few people enjoy but the advance in running shoe technology allows for the less perfectly designed to run long distances pain free (or with reduced pain as was my particular case).

Running on grass is of course much more forgiving than road running.

Yes, definitely. Out in the Fens we have a mostly peat base, and in the woods we get areas where the grass has been worn/nibbled away so you can some nice smooth stretches of peat which probably optimal.

Having said that earlier in the year, once I'd come out of the woods barefoot, I'd often remain barefoot on the parts of the drove which were still smooth tarmac (it's a few years since it's last surface-repair so it's getting crumbled and gritty in some areas). This is not something I do much now since it's colder in the early morning and evenings, and furthermore the drove has big farm depot and is surrounded by arable land, so from harvest+rainy season onwards the tractors drop a lot of grit/gravel on the tarmac and barefooting on this is obviously stupid. However barefoot going from the woods to the (smooth, grit free warm) tarmac is an interesting experience. One has to firstly slow right down, and let oneself adjust to a much lighter footfall, but with a very light ball of foot strike and gentle roll back, I find I can actually speed up a lot, and observe how much *less* effort running barefoot on this surface is compared with the woods. And that is because running barefoot in a wood requires a lot of physical effort (weaving around obstacles and timing foot lands regards tree roots etc.) and mental effort of permanently clocking exactly what the current running surface is like.

Running with proper, person specific running shoes helps tremendously. Can't emphasise this enough.

Difficult to disagree on this one! And certainly not want to start a footwear war. However, I think that for many perfect running shoes are going to be impossible to buy. For instance one of my feet is slightly wider, and one is slightly longer. Some people may have a slightly longer leg on one side, I used know a female runner with this. Plus various tilts and cambers and surfaces most surely mean that a perfect shoe is somewhat of a moving target. That's why my mindset is that of going for a minimal footwear and training ones muscles, stamina and flexibility very well to cope with reasonable running target. But who knows? I'm 51 now, so I'll probably have to wait a couple more decades before I know whether this choice has been a good or bad move.......a bit like investing!

Matt


See your bold comment - This is true, and this is why a visit to a specialist running shop is advised where they can assess your gait (often with video aids these days) and make a specific recommendation. However, I do not think that such selection is prefect in every case, but it does manage risk as well as it can be managed.

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Re: Running (and jogging) regimes

#256906

Postby redsturgeon » October 10th, 2019, 10:58 am

I would have to agree with the comments from SDH, all very sensible advice. TMB's story of what works for him is great and I take my hat off to him but for many individuals his approach would be unrealistic.

Personally I have never liked running although throughout my life I have always been a capable runner, at school I was in the top three or four in both sprinting and cross country running but I especially hated the latter.

I am now well into my seventh decade and I walk 3 to 5 miles of hilly terrain daily with the dog at a good pace (approx 15 min miles) and this suits me well both mentally and physically. I have recently stopped eating meat and this has led to an effortless weight loss to put my BMI at 23 which suits me fine. If I could just stop the alcohol and gambling I could probably apply for sainthood which would be some recompense for a dull and boring old age!

My younger/fitter wife runs and cycles regularly and once a month or so she persuades me to join her on either a 10k run or a 50k cycle ride which I reluctantly agree to. It peeves her that I can still keep up with her on a 10k run without having run for a few months and similarly on cycle rides although I have a long history of cycling that helps a lot.

I feel that running at my age on a more frequent basis, especially on the road would be too hard on my knees versus walking and no more beneficial for me otherwise. I am more than happy to leave running to younger persons who enjoy it while I take more time to walk in nature and enjoy the sights sounds and smells around me. Just yesterday, walking through a local chalk downland meadow I was surrounded by a throng of small birds (I wish I could identified them) chirping as they wheeled around in front of me in a mini murmuration...deep joy! This year the wild flowers and butterflies have been more stunning than usual and the blackberries that I have consumed straight from the bush have been exceptional...all might have been missed if I had been focussed on running at pace perhaps trying to improve my Strava PB or some other meaningless stat.

As a final aside my small dog much appreciates the more sedate pace of a walk rather than a run as she pursues her own rather different commune with nature's smells.

John

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Re: Running (and jogging) regimes

#256908

Postby Weath » October 10th, 2019, 11:00 am

A (contradictory) viewpoint from another experienced runner - competitive at county level on the track during my teenage years and a veteran of multiple marathons, dozens (and dozens) of halfs and too many 10k, 5k's to count and typically running about 120 miles a month.

Personally I would tell any fresh-footed runner to ignore all the talk about 'minimalist' shoes and gait analysis as most of it is a sales pitch rather than evidence based science. In the case of barefoot anecdotes these tend to come from the viewpoint of runners who have been running a considerable number of years, have many 1,000's of miles behind them and have the experience of knowing what their body can handle. Just like how you wouldn't typically sit in a F1 GP car to learn how to operate a gearbox for the first time.

My advice to any newbie would be buy something that you feel comfortable in, take it slowly and most importantly, listen to your body.

Going back a few years the accepted way to choose a suitable running shoe was what was known as a 'wet foot test' as for some reason it was thought that they way our foot arches placed when stood still would somehow determine how out feet would land while running and in turn reduce injury. This method has since been discredited by a number of studies and as technology advanced a new a more 'advanced' method started to take its place for making a running shoe decision - gait analysis.

The sort of video 'gait' analysis you will come across in any high street running shoe shop is not gait analysis, it is foot analysis and, similar to the wet foot test, will identify you as 1 of 3 arch types i.e. overpronator, oversupinator, or neutral. You only need to do a quick google to find out why assigning someone to one of these 3 types is over simplistic at best. eg. https://runnersconnect.net/footwear-and-foot-type/

In terms of heel striking, mid-foot running or running on your toes, I'll just leave this here: https://runningtrainingplan.com/running ... thon-2018/

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Re: Running (and jogging) regimes

#256917

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » October 10th, 2019, 11:34 am

EssDeeAitch wrote:Having run probably 100 or more marathons and ultra-marathons (including one 100 miler) I may have some insight into your question.
....
....
...always happy to offer up more advice beyond this general running intro month.

A ha!

So SDH what's your take on two quite common running issues/questions?

  1. Calf cramps
    I don't suffer from this very much at all, TBH, but some do and others here starting out might well. There was however one afternoon, I was at work and I anticipated running when I got back home. Since it was quite hot, whilst still at work I necked about 1.25 pints of water prior to leaving, in about a minute or so. Drove home (55 mins), changed drank a little more water. Started running (about 20 mins after getting home). Then I got calf cramps soon into my run, and they lasted probably for about 5k. Mel reckons this was due to lack of sodium, or something, from the h20 diluting my blood. Anyway, my preventive remedy, which is working out just fine for me, is just keep myself reasonably well hydrated prerun, and when I *start* the run, I do a couple of calf stretches, then powerwalk for a few seconds, then slow run, then powerwalk, etc. for about the first 100 yards or so, then I slowly pick up my running.
  2. Hitting the wall
    Sometimes I find that (only in my afternoon runs) after 4-5k I'd feel really tired somedays, really low on enthusiasm, then after 5 or so K, I just reenergise and for the remaining run gradually attain toward the usual mildly euphoric, well-exercised state. Never get this on weekend mornings, probably cos I have a nice bowl of oats plus a few cuppas for breakfast, and start running about 2.5 hours after I wake up. So anyway, I reckon the sluggishness at 4.5k is from my metabolism transition to fat burning. A work mate reckoned I should have a banana 1/2 hour before run. I think for me, this wasn't that great an idea, since I think the extra blood sugar at the start of the run, made me go too fast too early. So this afternoon, I'm not doing this nana-pre run thing, but instead just ensure I have decentish lunch, and start the first 4 or so K a little slower, so that my metabolism doesn't stress too much mid run. BTW I reckon I'm noticing this wall hitting thing more than some, since I have been gradually losing weight and slowly increasing my running volume to 3x 12.5k per week or thereabouts.
Any thoughts, comments appreciated,
Matt

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Re: Running (and jogging) regimes

#260834

Postby vrdiver » October 29th, 2019, 3:12 pm

Well, so much for a smooth resumption of running.

It seems I've strained a quadricep - pain about a hand's length above the kneecap and leg intermittently won't hold weight when the knee is bent, e.g. going up a step. Normal walking on flat ground seems fine, but there is a mild chronic dull pain that seems most pronounced when sitting (like now).

The knee itself is fine, just the muscle above it that seems injured.

Googling suggests I rest it for anything from two weeks to three months before resuming running, which has messed up my pre-Christmas get-in-shape plans a bit.

Any suggestions for other exercises to replace the running whilst waiting for the leg to recover?

VRD

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Re: Running (and jogging) regimes

#260847

Postby todthedog » October 29th, 2019, 4:17 pm

Just don't :( :D

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Re: Running (and jogging) regimes

#260971

Postby EssDeeAitch » October 30th, 2019, 8:15 am

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:
EssDeeAitch wrote:Having run probably 100 or more marathons and ultra-marathons (including one 100 miler) I may have some insight into your question.
....
....
...always happy to offer up more advice beyond this general running intro month.

A ha!

So SDH what's your take on two quite common running issues/questions?

  1. Calf cramps
    I don't suffer from this very much at all, TBH, but some do and others here starting out might well. There was however one afternoon, I was at work and I anticipated running when I got back home. Since it was quite hot, whilst still at work I necked about 1.25 pints of water prior to leaving, in about a minute or so. Drove home (55 mins), changed drank a little more water. Started running (about 20 mins after getting home). Then I got calf cramps soon into my run, and they lasted probably for about 5k. Mel reckons this was due to lack of sodium, or something, from the h20 diluting my blood. Anyway, my preventive remedy, which is working out just fine for me, is just keep myself reasonably well hydrated prerun, and when I *start* the run, I do a couple of calf stretches, then powerwalk for a few seconds, then slow run, then powerwalk, etc. for about the first 100 yards or so, then I slowly pick up my running.
  2. Hitting the wall
    Sometimes I find that (only in my afternoon runs) after 4-5k I'd feel really tired somedays, really low on enthusiasm, then after 5 or so K, I just reenergise and for the remaining run gradually attain toward the usual mildly euphoric, well-exercised state. Never get this on weekend mornings, probably cos I have a nice bowl of oats plus a few cuppas for breakfast, and start running about 2.5 hours after I wake up. So anyway, I reckon the sluggishness at 4.5k is from my metabolism transition to fat burning. A work mate reckoned I should have a banana 1/2 hour before run. I think for me, this wasn't that great an idea, since I think the extra blood sugar at the start of the run, made me go too fast too early. So this afternoon, I'm not doing this nana-pre run thing, but instead just ensure I have decentish lunch, and start the first 4 or so K a little slower, so that my metabolism doesn't stress too much mid run. BTW I reckon I'm noticing this wall hitting thing more than some, since I have been gradually losing weight and slowly increasing my running volume to 3x 12.5k per week or thereabouts.
Any thoughts, comments appreciated,
Matt


Matt, in answer to your questions, and in my experience only...

Cramps - I never suffered from cramps or if I did, it was short lived and never an impediment. There is no (to my knowledge) settled argument as to why people cramp (or develop a stitch) but hydration, electrolytes, salts etc are often quoted as important in the prevention of cramps.

Hitting the wall - glycogen depletion can take up 80 to 100 minutes during running (16 to 25 km for me, depending on the purpose and nature of the run), after this time one can "hit the wall" if no carbs have been taken in during the run. If running for more than an hour, take a banana or energy gel with you and eat after 30 minutes and every 30 minutes. And don't run for 30 minutes after eating, and your point about 'so that my metabolism doesn't stress too much mid run' is not something I can comment on as it was never an issue or even commented on in my circles - but we would often find that a particular segment of the run was "tough" or we "were flying" but I am not sure that this can be attributed to metabolic rates during the run.

I just never suffered with these issues other and as I was a member of a thriving running club, these matters were discussed all the time so preventative and curative interventions were always on hand.

Keep it up, it sounds as if you are doing very well with it despite the problems/issues that you mention. Running should be enjoyable and sometimes for it to be enjoyable. less is more.

Running science and knowledge has moved on since I stopped running (the arthritis got me in the end, I now cycle) so please, as in financial matters DYOR.

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Re: Running (and jogging) regimes

#261044

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » October 30th, 2019, 12:17 pm

Hi VRD,

vrdiver wrote:Well, so much for a smooth resumption of running.

It seems I've strained a quadricep - pain about a hand's length above the kneecap and leg intermittently won't hold weight when the knee is bent, e.g. going up a step. Normal walking on flat ground seems fine, but there is a mild chronic dull pain that seems most pronounced when sitting (like now).

The knee itself is fine, just the muscle above it that seems injured.

First off, very sorry to hear this, but "getting back into it" can be tough. It took me about 3-4 years to get to how I am with running after restarting in my late 40's. I've so many bits of advice for you that I don't know where to begin!

1. Don't give up! The first bit is always the toughest. You'll be fine. Maybe you got too confident too fast?

Googling suggests I rest it for anything from two weeks to three months before resuming running, which has messed up my pre-Christmas get-in-shape plans a bit.

2. In my arrogant opinion 3 months is ridiculous. Personally I'd avoid Google for health advice like the plague. I think Google/Youtube is great for getting help on a certain exercise or stretch, but the "Agony Aunt" services of the net is just a depressing load of crap+click-bait if you ask me.

A concept I find very important, is for each individual to know the difference between a pain and an ache. A pain is something that means you must stop. An ache is saying, "you have a weakness right here mate, take it easier for a bit, then make this bit stronger!", but FFS don't stop and give up cos of a weeny ache!

(FWIW I got hit by a car cycling, when I was 42. Very bad comminuted r. humerus fracture. Used all my annual sick allowance, then went into unpaid, then struggled to work. Nearly had arm amputed, or iliac crest marrow transfers etc. You have to know your pain and know your aches. I avoided the 2nd op. by ignoring my consultant.......I started doing weights whilst upper arm still plastered. Only 0.5k to start. Each day I measured my progress. Each day v. v. slowly increased. Theory of mine was to build my blood supply, hence muscle, hence bone, etc. The point was I never forced pain.)

3. You need to build strength and supplety in your body - esp. legs, hips, knees, ankles, feet. Obvious really. Do some weights. Do situps, V-situps, glut bridges, build shins and calfs by raising body weight on floor and by lowering from stairs. Will try to find vids later.

Any suggestions for other exercises to replace the running whilst waiting for the leg to recover?

4. Yes. Doing the running is not an off/on switch binary operation. Do some walking. As you get better, gear up for run but with warm layers. Drive somewhere nice, and walk, then walk quicker, then do a very slow run, then stop then walk again. Do weight training, gentle at first, e.g. squats, calf raises, deadlifts, singleleg deadlifts. Do loads and loads of supplety work, calf stretches, foot rotations, or yoga etc.

5. You've got to realise that (I don't know how old you are, but this is esp. important for 40s-50s onwards) that the running is not just cardio vascular, a lot is technique, strength, supplety. Build all these areas up.

6. What's your weight like? If you are lighter, it means less load on you. Simples. Over the past few months I got my weight from about 12 to 10.25st. Running is obv. faster as result, I also dehydrate much slower. The key to weight loss, for me, no/few sweet treats, smaller portions, cut carbs and have slightly more protein. e.g. less pasta/toast more light-baby-bel cheese and hardboiled eggs, smoked fish etc.

7. Keep going. Even if slightly achy. Aches are generally ok, just back off a little, analyse and rebuild the missing strength. Pain means stop.

HTH, I'll try find any vid links now.

Matt

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Re: Running (and jogging) regimes

#261055

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » October 30th, 2019, 12:40 pm

A few exercises:

Squats:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inegQ48dV_Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v_c67Omje48

Deadlift:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-4qRntuXBSc

Single leg DL (bent knee):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RBgqF8v1e2Y

Glute bridge:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8bbE64NuDTU

V-sits
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yqKlM6WUkQA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MzV6G47VL10

Calf raise (lowering)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VGq8YzBsrjw
(raising)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-M4-G8p8fmc

Calf stretch (from about 1:12-1:42 is my fave calf stretch)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RaP2yACW0Rc

Foot/ankle stuff:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4opIhYgHf1c
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G0NUvvKHwEA

I couldn't find my exact exercises, any way the above list should help. This is at least as important as the actual running IMHO. Keep going and keep posting.

Matt

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Re: Running (and jogging) regimes

#261073

Postby vrdiver » October 30th, 2019, 1:53 pm

Thanks for those posts Matt, much appreciated.

55, 12st and 6'1", walk the dog every day and cycle to the shops rather than drive, so whilst not "fit" neither am I a couch potato disaster. Would still like to drop a stone, or at least redistribute it from the waist to somewhere a bit more commendable!

I SCUBA dive, which is not really a sport, at least for exercise purposes, unless you count lugging kit around. Diet - vegetarian - cooked from scratch, but probably too many biscuits ;)

A few years ago I was cycling up to 100km in a session, but that's gone out the window and I'd be chuffed to get 20km down the road now. My plan was to take the dog running (she needs a lot more exercise than our previous mutt) and to work in some cycling and swimming (when not teaching diving on our pool nights) to both lose some weight and to recover that stamina.

Agree with you re the ache / pain thoughts and the web as a medical advisor! I did try to limit my intake to NHS-like sites or sports injury experts; the range of 2 weeks to 3 months is obviously a function of the severity of injury, so I'm hoping to be at the two week end of the scale but did note a number of sites warning of a recurrence if the original injury had not been given enough time to heal. I figure I need to pay attention to the residual ache in the leg as a sign that some repair work is still going on?

I'll go through the links you posted - my biggest concern is that having taken time away from any sensible exercise regime over the last couple of years it will be too tempting to abandon the restart come the winter weather (I may have to join a gym if all else fails...)

Congrats on your own recovery - that accident did not sound like much fun :cry: I got knocked off my bicycle many years ago (by a driver coming out of a side road) but was lucky enough to be thrown in front of an oncoming police car who avoided me and nicked the dozy idiot who'd just trashed my bike.

Anyhow, off to browse some youtube links!

VRD

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Re: Running (and jogging) regimes

#261181

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » October 31st, 2019, 6:43 am

vrdiver wrote:Thanks for those posts Matt, much appreciated.

No probs.

55, 12st and 6'1", walk the dog every day and cycle to the shops rather than drive, so whilst not "fit" neither am I a couch potato disaster. Would still like to drop a stone, or at least redistribute it from the waist to somewhere a bit more commendable!

I SCUBA dive, which is not really a sport, at least for exercise purposes, unless you count lugging kit around. Diet - vegetarian - cooked from scratch, but probably too many biscuits ;)

A few years ago I was cycling up to 100km in a session, but that's gone out the window and I'd be chuffed to get 20km down the road now. My plan was to take the dog running (she needs a lot more exercise than our previous mutt) and to work in some cycling and swimming (when not teaching diving on our pool nights) to both lose some weight and to recover that stamina.

From what you've just said, it sounds like you are already reasonably fit, so it seems very likely that your recent running spell has just pinpointed a weak spot. It's not surprising since running is the ultimate in finding these areas.

I think it's up to you (i.e. pain v. ache) to decide how long (if at all) you really need to rest. The little I know is there are 3 different (well 4 if you include cartilage) soft tissue types, muscles, ligaments and tendons. Muscles are, well, muscles, tendon attach muscles to bones, and I don't actually know what ligaments do (attach muscles to muscles, perhaps??). Anyway with pulling muscles you probably need less rest than tendons. The worse poss case with tendons, of course, is detaching one, i.e. achilles. But that takes muchos stress to undue I believe.

It's obviously up to you, i.e. listen to your body, when you next try any running. When this last happened to me, I got some posterior tibial tendon aggro last year from over doing it, I took about a week or 2 off, and then started a regime, of part fast walking, part running, and I maintaining this, but gradually increasing the portion of actual running until after, I dunno, a month or so was almost back to completely running, at slightly slower pace. I also got mild plantar fasciitis several months back, but I didn't let that interfere with running at all. What I did was work on very intense calf stretches. I mentioned the routine a little in an earlier post of mine, i.e.:

"I just sit and stretch my legs flat, then touch my toes, then grab all my toes, gradually bending my back and slowly putting a big pull onto my toes pulling them back towards me. Once you get into it, you can get a beautiful stretch from your back, upper+lower legs, feet and toes in one stance, and then I hold this for say 30-40 seconds"

This Erica lady does a similar exercise from about 1:15 in this clip. But for me I actually grab both feets' toe ends firmly with my hands, and pull myself into a real f**king burner of a calf stretch. I now do this a couple times each day. Needless to say, I can't see plantar fasciitis, or tibial tendon aggro for dust these days....

So in the short term you need to get yourself back into a state where gentle running is possible, whilst and into the longer term addressing the "weak points" in your running physique as they crop up.

One thing I personally would not do, is see a doctor. Most of the ones I've ever met will have you resting until hell freezes over, they don't want their name on any injury case! I admit I did know one Dr. who was a very keen runner himself, and he used to love running after a day of work to take his stresses away. But those Docs. are probably few and far between.

Anyway best run off now, pardoning the pun ;)

Keep us all posted on your progress,
Matt


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