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Did they have the Virus?
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- Lemon Slice
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Did they have the Virus?
In January two of our male friends, 60ish had life threatening pneumonia type illnesses arising from a cold which got much worse.
They were unknown to each with no common friends or activities.
They eventually staggered into A@E and were told that their systems and were about to shut down and they could die if they didn,t get immediate hospital treatment. They went into hospital.
They were both very fit, one a gymn instructor, the other a mad keen cyclist.
They did recover after a while but were very shaken by their experences. It was not a normal illness.
We wonder if the CV virus had in fact been in Britain ealier than people think? This was long before there had been any mention of a virus in China.
Did doctors see this type of illness and not know what it was?
They were unknown to each with no common friends or activities.
They eventually staggered into A@E and were told that their systems and were about to shut down and they could die if they didn,t get immediate hospital treatment. They went into hospital.
They were both very fit, one a gymn instructor, the other a mad keen cyclist.
They did recover after a while but were very shaken by their experences. It was not a normal illness.
We wonder if the CV virus had in fact been in Britain ealier than people think? This was long before there had been any mention of a virus in China.
Did doctors see this type of illness and not know what it was?
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- The full Lemon
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Re: Did they have the Virus?
The coronavirus was first identified in China in December 2019, so their experiences was not 'long before there had been mention of any virus in China'.
The trouble is that every unusual medical condition is now linked to Coronavirus. Why don't they seek the test which tells whether they have had it or not? The antibody test?
Dod
The trouble is that every unusual medical condition is now linked to Coronavirus. Why don't they seek the test which tells whether they have had it or not? The antibody test?
Dod
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- Lemon Half
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Re: Did they have the Virus?
Dod101 wrote:The coronavirus was first identified in China in December 2019, so their experiences was not 'long before there had been mention of any virus in China'.
The trouble is that every unusual medical condition is now linked to Coronavirus. Why don't they seek the test which tells whether they have had it or not? The antibody test?
Dod
There is no antibody test currently approved by the UK government due to lack of accuracy.
John
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Re: Did they have the Virus?
redsturgeon wrote:Dod101 wrote:The coronavirus was first identified in China in December 2019, so their experiences was not 'long before there had been mention of any virus in China'.
The trouble is that every unusual medical condition is now linked to Coronavirus. Why don't they seek the test which tells whether they have had it or not? The antibody test?
Dod
There is no antibody test currently approved by the UK government due to lack of accuracy.
John
I must say I tend to switch off but is that still so? On Question Time last evening did I not catch the chap who runs Cobra Beer say that he had the test and it showed that he had had C virus, or was that simply that he was now in the clear?
Dod
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- Lemon Half
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Re: Did they have the Virus?
It is possible to get various tests unofficially. As I have mentioned elsewhere as part of our company work we bought 80 test via a contact...at £3 each.
Some people are selling these tests at up to several hundred pounds each but that is not strictly legal. We are supplying the test for a local primary care group to use...at cost.
Hmmm I have just heard on the radio that Amazon is delivering a home testing kit. I know nothing more of that.
John
Some people are selling these tests at up to several hundred pounds each but that is not strictly legal. We are supplying the test for a local primary care group to use...at cost.
The data sheet of the antibody tests we have used is here
https://pharmadoctor.co.uk/pdf/biopanda ... insert.pdf
From a small sample, compared with PCR results they showed:
IgG
One false positive in 21 tests and no false negatives in 49 tests.
IgM
Two false positives in 19 tests and three false negatives in 51 tests.
Hmmm I have just heard on the radio that Amazon is delivering a home testing kit. I know nothing more of that.
John
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- Lemon Slice
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Re: Did they have the Virus?
I may be wrong, but I thought they'd got Amazon to distribute kits, but then they didn't work, so it's all on hold.
Its worth taking a second to think about test accuracy.
Imagine a kit that is 90% accurate at detecting positive and 99% at negative results.
Use it on 1000 people,1% of whom have antibodies in their blood. The test detects 9 of those 10 people (pretty good) but , uh-oh, it also gives positive results for 10 people who don't have it, for a total of 19 positive results of which roughly half are the correct result. Hmm.
Its worth taking a second to think about test accuracy.
Imagine a kit that is 90% accurate at detecting positive and 99% at negative results.
Use it on 1000 people,1% of whom have antibodies in their blood. The test detects 9 of those 10 people (pretty good) but , uh-oh, it also gives positive results for 10 people who don't have it, for a total of 19 positive results of which roughly half are the correct result. Hmm.
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: Did they have the Virus?
Dod101 wrote:The coronavirus was first identified in China in December 2019, so their experiences was not 'long before there had been mention of any virus in China'.
According to a team at Cambridge University, the outbreak may have started in September 2019. That would give it plenty of time to reach the UK and produce serious infections by January, especially in the major cities. Why would the Chinese government break the habit of a lifetime by telling the truth about when they first detected it?
"The first outbreak of the coronavirus could have happened further south than the central Chinese city of Wuhan as early as September, according to a team of scientists led by the University of Cambridge."
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/science/article/3080380/coronavirus-outbreak-may-have-started-september-say-british
"Since today’s PNAS study was conducted, the research team has extended its analysis to 1,001 viral genomes. While yet to be peer-reviewed, Forster says the latest work suggests that the first infection and spread among humans of COVID-19 occurred between mid-September and early December. "
https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/covid-19-genetic-network-analysis-provides-snapshot-of-pandemic-origins
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- Lemon Quarter
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Re: Did they have the Virus?
Both my wife and I had a really bad 'cold' in December. Dry hacking cough, temperature, aches and pains, really tired all the time. Mine lasted 3 weeks and my wife was just over 4 weeks. The cough was the worst part, every cough felt like the chest was full of broken glass.
There was a lot of it about at the time. I know 20 people in the area had the same thing. My sister who lives 200 miles away had the same thing.
I'd never heard of coronavirus at that time.
It it was C19 it must have been widespread but I never heard any mention of a rise in the death rate, not that I study such things.
I really don't think it was the virus. I discounted flu because I get the flu jab each year.
There was a lot of it about at the time. I know 20 people in the area had the same thing. My sister who lives 200 miles away had the same thing.
I'd never heard of coronavirus at that time.
It it was C19 it must have been widespread but I never heard any mention of a rise in the death rate, not that I study such things.
I really don't think it was the virus. I discounted flu because I get the flu jab each year.
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- Lemon Half
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Re: Did they have the Virus?
Dod101 wrote:I must say I tend to switch off but is that still so? On Question Time last evening did I not catch the chap who runs Cobra Beer say that he had the test and it showed that he had had C virus, or was that simply that he was now in the clear?
Dod
He said that his doctor had sent a sample of his blood to Germany, taken after he had recovered from Covid-19. The test results showed that he had antibodies, but of course he already knew that he had had Covid-19.
TJH
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- The full Lemon
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Re: Did they have the Virus?
sg31 wrote:Both my wife and I had a really bad 'cold' in December. Dry hacking cough, temperature, aches and pains, really tired all the time. Mine lasted 3 weeks and my wife was just over 4 weeks. The cough was the worst part, every cough felt like the chest was full of broken glass.
I had something like that just before christmas, but mercifully just a few days unwell. I checked the NHS website for cold vs flu (I've never been clear on the distinction), and from that it was unambiguously flu. Despite having had the flu jab!
It it was C19 it must have been widespread but I never heard any mention of a rise in the death rate, not that I study such things.
Indeed, that would throw into question a lot of what we (think we) know about it. But it seems unlikely.
I really don't think it was the virus. I discounted flu because I get the flu jab each year.
AIUI the flu jab isn't always effective, 'cos a different strain of flu can creep up on you.
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- The full Lemon
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Re: Did they have the Virus?
Re pneumonia-type illness. I'm wondering what the definition there is.
Some years back I had a seriously nasty cold that for a time included coughing up liquid from the lungs for dear life. Couldn't lie down, let alone sleep, or I'd've drowned in it. Once I was sufficiently recovered, I thought "that must be pneumonia", but I'm still not sure about it.
I've had much milder forms of that - coughing up liquid from deep in the lungs, but never feeling near drowning - a few times. Most recently in the lurgy I had last month. Would that then be mild pneumonia? Is there such a thing?
Some years back I had a seriously nasty cold that for a time included coughing up liquid from the lungs for dear life. Couldn't lie down, let alone sleep, or I'd've drowned in it. Once I was sufficiently recovered, I thought "that must be pneumonia", but I'm still not sure about it.
I've had much milder forms of that - coughing up liquid from deep in the lungs, but never feeling near drowning - a few times. Most recently in the lurgy I had last month. Would that then be mild pneumonia? Is there such a thing?
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- The full Lemon
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Re: Did they have the Virus?
feder1 wrote:In January two of our male friends, 60ish had life threatening pneumonia type illnesses arising from a cold which got much worse.
They were unknown to each with no common friends or activities.
Obviously they did have a common friend - you.
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- Lemon Slice
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Re: Did they have the Virus?
Lootman,you are very perceptive!
Maybe I am patient zero!
In mid October, 6 days after my first flu jab, I contracted a very painful sore throat which lasted 10 days. No sense of smell and food tasted quite different. In pain when drinking or eating and difficulty sleeping. Felt like eating broken glass. I don,t recall ever having had this so bad before.
I couldn,t smell Vicks Vaporub at all. (I can this morning).
I eventually was forced to go the doctor who inspected me and said I would recover soon - which I did!
Maybe I am patient zero!
In mid October, 6 days after my first flu jab, I contracted a very painful sore throat which lasted 10 days. No sense of smell and food tasted quite different. In pain when drinking or eating and difficulty sleeping. Felt like eating broken glass. I don,t recall ever having had this so bad before.
I couldn,t smell Vicks Vaporub at all. (I can this morning).
I eventually was forced to go the doctor who inspected me and said I would recover soon - which I did!
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- Lemon Half
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Re: Did they have the Virus?
UncleEbenezer wrote:Some years back I had a seriously nasty cold that for a time included coughing up liquid from the lungs for dear life. Couldn't lie down, let alone sleep, or I'd've drowned in it. Once I was sufficiently recovered, I thought "that must be pneumonia", but I'm still not sure about it.
I've had much milder forms of that - coughing up liquid from deep in the lungs, but never feeling near drowning - a few times. Most recently in the lurgy I had last month. Would that then be mild pneumonia? Is there such a thing?
There are two (three?) main types of pneumonia - the Hillary Clinton kind ("walking pneumonia"), a few rare viral pneumonias, and the bacterial kind, which can either sort itself out in a week or so at home with a few antibiotics, or which can go critical like mine unfortunately did.
Warning: probably too much information: With all kinds, your alveoli first get submerged, which is why you can't get enough oxygen, but with bacterial the lung tissues can quite literally start to rot away. If that happens, the stuff you're coughing can turn from green/pink to red and sometimes yellow! (Don't think I'll say anything more about where that comes from.)
The usual cause of bacterial pneumonia is a kind of perfectly normal strepto or staph which,for most people, is permanently to be found in the backs of their throats. Usually, your natural defences keep it under control, but other illlnesses and stresses can allow it to get down the windpipe, and then the trouble starts. My own pneumonia started with a really foul and heavy cold; I only went to the doctor after three or four weeks when I started getting pains around my rib cage, which were due to pleurisy (jeez, that hurt).
The good news is that intravenous antibiotics can fix bacterial pneumonia quickly as long as there aren't too many toxins getting into your vital organs; I was 0ut of hospital in nine days. But as far as I know, Covid doesn't play that game because it's viral, not bacterial - which is why there's no treatment except ventilation.
I think you'd know the difference. If it responds to antibiotics it isn't Covid.
BJ
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Re: Did they have the Virus?
UncleEbenezer wrote:Re pneumonia-type illness. I'm wondering what the definition there is.
Some years back I had a seriously nasty cold that for a time included coughing up liquid from the lungs for dear life. Couldn't lie down, let alone sleep, or I'd've drowned in it. Once I was sufficiently recovered, I thought "that must be pneumonia", but I'm still not sure about it.
I've had much milder forms of that - coughing up liquid from deep in the lungs, but never feeling near drowning - a few times. Most recently in the lurgy I had last month. Would that then be mild pneumonia? Is there such a thing?
If you are coughing up mucus, it could well be asthma. That is one of the things that Ventolin inhalers suppress.
TJH
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Re: Did they have the Virus?
tjh290633 wrote:If you are coughing up mucus, it could well be asthma. That is one of the things that Ventolin inhalers suppress.
TJH
Mucus, or sputum?
Certainly not normally: just a few times. Ballpark one spell of it per decade of my age. But yes, last month's mild case sounded like an asthmatic wheeze.
I thought asthma was something you either have or don't have, rather than a lurgy that hits you but you fight off?
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Re: Did they have the Virus?
UncleEbenezer wrote:I thought asthma was something you either have or don't have, rather than a lurgy that hits you but you fight off?
I believe asthma can be one of the afflictions of (shall we call it?) late middle age. I didn't have any asthma until after I turned sixty, which was roughly the same time that my pneumonia happened. At first I assumed that the pneumonia had triggered the asthma, but others have suggested that actually the reverse was more likely.
No need to panic, I was still mighty unlucky to have copped the pneumonia, because most people don't. But particularly heavy colds can bring on quite bad asthmatic attacks, which (for me) need a blue inhaler and a bit of a knack to handle successfully. (Don't panic, breathe through the nose, etc.) As you can see, I'm still here, large as life and twice as ugly.
BJ
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Re: Did they have the Virus?
Asthma sufferers are entitled to a pneumonia vaccine. I had one a couple of years ago after my MIL died from pneumonia. I had to ask for it as the surgery hadn't offered it to me when they should.
I seem to remember reading that everyone should be vaccinated at age 60 but I'm not 100% sure if that is right or not.
The vaccine doesn't give immunity against viral pneumonia but it does protect against some bacterial types.
I seem to remember reading that everyone should be vaccinated at age 60 but I'm not 100% sure if that is right or not.
The vaccine doesn't give immunity against viral pneumonia but it does protect against some bacterial types.
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Re: Did they have the Virus?
feder1 wrote:In January two of our male friends, 60ish had life threatening pneumonia type illnesses arising from a cold which got much worse....... They were both very fit, one a gymn instructor, the other a mad keen cyclist.
That would fit with my own experience, back in 2012. About a quarter of the patients in my respiratory ward were young, fit people, not overweight. And my neighbours' son in law was also hospitalised in another town by the same cold virus which set off the same pneumonia. He was 23, tall and fit, and a serious weekend rugby player. If that bug's got your name on it, it might be very hard to avoid.
There were four routine questions that the hospital had put to everybody in the ward. Are you a drug addict, are you an alcoholic, do you have dementia, and do you have HIV? All of them can impact on your immune responses, of course. But so can stress, I think?
BJ
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Re: Did they have the Virus?
The BBC says a French intensive care chief says the Virus was in France on 27 December.
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