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Recycling - tin cans or trays

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Dod101
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Re: Recycling - tin cans or trays

#109875

Postby Dod101 » January 12th, 2018, 1:35 pm

JessUK98 wrote:Therein lies the conundrum. The H&S guy that I used to work with said that recycling was pointless as to clean and reuse materials also costs money & resources so counters out any benefits. He was quite pessimistic in general though.


My opus seems to have got lost. Apologies if this is repetition.

I do not see this as a conundrum. The benefit is to rid the place of rubbish and recycling is only one way. Any economic benefit is almost beside the point but seems to have taken over. If plastic cannot be recycled I would rather see it simply incinerated because at least the heat generated can be used. Recycling was always supposed to be a by product not an end in itself.

Dod

dspp
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Re: Recycling - tin cans or trays

#109898

Postby dspp » January 12th, 2018, 2:36 pm

swill453 wrote:Having anything "biodegradable" is entirely pointless if it goes to landfill anyway.

Scott.


No.

Cap the landfill with a membrane, let it biodegrade, stick in some plastic drainpipe and turn the methane that comes out into electricity via a converted diesel engine. That is what is done at landfill gas sites. So there is value in using biodegradable stuff even if it goes to landfill.

(landfill is not a fantastic idea mind you. Better is energy recovery. See Pennon etc.)

Also rubbish plastic blowing around the countryside has a very long life before it eventually breaks down. But biodegradable versions break down faster. That's another plus for them.

regards, dspp

tjh290633
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Re: Recycling - tin cans or trays

#109921

Postby tjh290633 » January 12th, 2018, 3:19 pm

On the subject of glass recycling, it is important to remember that any bottle glass can be recycled into green glass, while only clear glass cullet can be used to melt clear glass. The chemistry of amber glass means that it accept both amber and clear glass cullet.

Melting energy from raw materials takes about 2.2 Mbtu/ton while from 100% cullet it is only about 1.8 Mbtu/ton. On top of that you have the structural and exhaust gas losses from the combustion process.

All the green glass melted in the UK uses only recycled green glass as it's raw material, plus some small additives to help the melting process. It is the same in Switzerland, and the reason is the large amount of wine imported in green bottles. One of the savings from recycling glass is not having to use minerals in the batch, which saves the cost of mining and transport of sand and limestone, which would otherwise be needed. The other major ingredient is sodium carbonate, either mined or manufactured from sodium chloride, which is also the most expensive.

Another use for glass cullet, if it is not suitable for remelting, is as an abrasive or for use in road surfaces.

As a child in the wartime years, our lives were helped by the regular visits of the Corona Lorry, who brought bottles of lemonade, clear and yellow, and cherryade. We had a wooden crate holding four bottles with swing top corks, and Thomas & Evans's man would replace our empty bottles with full ones, the empty bottles then being taken back to Porth for reuse. The same principle was used by the brewers, whose beer bottles were often reused many times. This stopped when the industry moved to lightweight non-returnable bottles.

TJH

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Re: Recycling - tin cans or trays

#109922

Postby ap8889 » January 12th, 2018, 3:21 pm

JessUK98 wrote:
Watis wrote:I detect a grand assumption in the media that all recycling is always good. But there are energy and other costs associated with recycling that partially (or wholly - who knows?) cancel out the benefits of recycling some materials.


Therein lies the conundrum. The H&S guy that I used to work with said that recycling was pointless as to clean and reuse materials also costs money & resources so counters out any benefits. He was quite pessimistic in general though.

I think plastics are the worst. The amount of plastic bags and bottles you see littered about and stuck in trees is astounding (and the photos of the plastics in some parts of the ocean is shocking). I'm trying to cut down on the amount of plastics I buy, but it's very hard nowadays as literally everything perishable comes with some form of plastic. Even the cardboard juice cartons have a plastic lid! I think I'm also going to have to look into my poop bags. I buy what I thought were biodegradable poop bags, but then I read articles like these: https://www.rover.com/blog/truth-about- ... p-bags-in/ and http://www.dogster.com/doggie-style/dog ... een-review and I wonder if the bags I have *are* actually any better than your standard poop bags (at least the core in the roll is cardboard and not plastic...).



I guess my question would be what is the point of recycling anything, given the choices made already?

Why? The impact of the decision to own a pet is so heavy. The only possible excuse for owning a dog in my view is if it is a working dog or guide dog. If we are serious about reducing your waste, then pet ownership is one of the lifestyle choices that is incompatible with maintaining a healthy biosphere. A dog has a pretty heavy carbon footprint itself. Some claim a dog is equivalent to an SUV in terms of carbon emissions. I think that is an exaggeration, but they certainly have a heavy impact.

The best thing one could do for the environment would be to have no pets and thus no pet related consumption and also no pet related waste packaging.

So why fret over recycling when a pooch is a meat eating indulgence requiring the support of vast exploitative industrial agriculture for its continued existence?

JessUK98
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Re: Recycling - tin cans or trays

#109934

Postby JessUK98 » January 12th, 2018, 3:47 pm

ap8889 wrote:
JessUK98 wrote:
Watis wrote:I detect a grand assumption in the media that all recycling is always good. But there are energy and other costs associated with recycling that partially (or wholly - who knows?) cancel out the benefits of recycling some materials.


Therein lies the conundrum. The H&S guy that I used to work with said that recycling was pointless as to clean and reuse materials also costs money & resources so counters out any benefits. He was quite pessimistic in general though.

I think plastics are the worst. The amount of plastic bags and bottles you see littered about and stuck in trees is astounding (and the photos of the plastics in some parts of the ocean is shocking). I'm trying to cut down on the amount of plastics I buy, but it's very hard nowadays as literally everything perishable comes with some form of plastic. Even the cardboard juice cartons have a plastic lid! I think I'm also going to have to look into my poop bags. I buy what I thought were biodegradable poop bags, but then I read articles like these: https://www.rover.com/blog/truth-about- ... p-bags-in/ and http://www.dogster.com/doggie-style/dog ... een-review and I wonder if the bags I have *are* actually any better than your standard poop bags (at least the core in the roll is cardboard and not plastic...).



I guess my question would be what is the point of recycling anything, given the choices made already?

Why? The impact of the decision to own a pet is so heavy. The only possible excuse for owning a dog in my view is if it is a working dog or guide dog. If we are serious about reducing your waste, then pet ownership is one of the lifestyle choices that is incompatible with maintaining a healthy biosphere. A dog has a pretty heavy carbon footprint itself. Some claim a dog is equivalent to an SUV in terms of carbon emissions. I think that is an exaggeration, but they certainly have a heavy impact.

The best thing one could do for the environment would be to have no pets and thus no pet related consumption and also no pet related waste packaging.

So why fret over recycling when a pooch is a meat eating indulgence requiring the support of vast exploitative industrial agriculture for its continued existence?


Well I adopted my pet when she was 8, and I would never get a puppy, so I think I'm doing my part to recycle pets :lol:

As I'm sure you are well aware, humans do far more damage to the environment. I was watching a short clip with Sir David Attenborough and he said a lot of our environmental problems are caused by population growth, and that he can't think of a single problem that wouldn't be easier to solve if there were less people. Apparently the population of the world has tripled in less than his lifetime. That's insane. I suppose the argument to recycle or not is a moot point if population continues to grow so fast. There won't be anything left to try and save.

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Re: Recycling - tin cans or trays

#109943

Postby ap8889 » January 12th, 2018, 4:17 pm

That is precisely my position. Its hopeless at this point. A dog is a substitute for the caveman-tribe society industrial ecomomies no longer permit but we are genetically programmed to need.

The longer we run the mega-factories and mega-farms to support mega-cities and hypermobile mega-populations burning terrawatts of power, the worse the ultimate situation. A hard sharp bottleneck allows at least a small portion of nature to survive. I decided that the best outcome would be if we crash the industrial economy hard and fast.

I think the best way to do that is to overextend the system, force it to throughput even more than it can cope with. Burn the fossil fuels that allow the ravaging of the planet as quick as possible. That would make it impossible for industrial man to go on.

I think we are looking at this plastic issue the wrong way. Plastic leaches genderbending oestrogen analogues: I cant think of a more diabolically clever method to deliver fertility-reducing chemicals to the population en masse. Lets make more low-grade plastic junk!

Lets party like its 1999, buy Happy Meals in the drive-thru and toss the wrappers and plastic junk, its paradoxically for the best.

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Re: Recycling - tin cans or trays

#109950

Postby gryffron » January 12th, 2018, 4:30 pm

Watis wrote:since plastic is ultimately made from oil, we should be doing whatever we can to minimise how much oil needs to used to make plastics while at the same time looking for alternatives - before the oil runs out.

They can be made from plant oils. But it wouldn't help much. The real problem is the huge amount of energy required to extract the pure chemicals from the oil. Even I was surprised to learn it takes more energy to produce a kg of plastic than a kg of steel.

Watis wrote:Surprised to hear that glass is so poor to recycle, at least in energy terms. The alternative would be to reuse bottles – as was common in my younger days – but I guess the costs of collection, washing and sterilising for reuse as food containers is very high.

I guess the issue is the choice we have these days. Rather than the 2 flavours of Corona mentioned by TJH, my local supermarket today has 2 complete aisles of fizzy drinks. First step would be to persuade all those producers to use the SAME bottles.

Gryff

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Re: Recycling - tin cans or trays

#109980

Postby Slarti » January 12th, 2018, 6:21 pm

Watis wrote:Does anyone know why black plastic cannot be recycled?

Surely it can be used to make more black plastic things?

Although I do my bit to ensure as much of our waste is recycled, I can't help feeling that we're shutting the stable door after the horse has bolted. It would be better if the stuff had never been made in the first place.

I detect a grand assumption in the media that all recycling is always good. But there are energy and other costs associated with recycling that partially (or wholly - who knows?) cancel out the benefits of recycling some materials.

I suspect that glass gives the best return over costs, followed by metals, then paper, and finally plastics.


When I used to work for plastic bag manufacturers, some 30 odd years ago, we used to regrind any coloured plastic to turn it into black sacks, though if we had high grade white or clear plastic we would turn it into white plastic bags.

Recycling plastic, glass, metals and paper not only uses less energy that creating from raw materials but with some products like paper and glass can actually give higher quality products.


I also agree that less packaging should be used, but that would require some regulations to be changed as, for example, organic fruit and veg has to be wrapped, or so I was informed at the previous place. Shrink wrapped, organic cucumber, anyone?

Slarti

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Re: Recycling - tin cans or trays

#109982

Postby UncleEbenezer » January 12th, 2018, 6:41 pm

ap8889 wrote:Why? The impact of the decision to own a pet is so heavy.

A tiny fraction of the impact of a human. I hope you had the snip as soon as (or before) you reached that conclusion.

(And I suspect some of the figures bandied around are based on assumptions like getting in a car to take the dog walkies).

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Re: Recycling - tin cans or trays

#109984

Postby UncleEbenezer » January 12th, 2018, 6:48 pm

tjh290633 wrote:Another use for glass cullet, if it is not suitable for remelting, is as an abrasive or for use in road surfaces.
TJH

For what it's worth, recycled plastic also has a role in road surfaces.

I have a few quid (crowdfunding punt) in a company working on that: http://www.macrebur.com/

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Re: Recycling - tin cans or trays

#109999

Postby ap8889 » January 12th, 2018, 8:27 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
ap8889 wrote:Why? The impact of the decision to own a pet is so heavy.

A tiny fraction of the impact of a human. I hope you had the snip as soon as (or before) you reached that conclusion.

(And I suspect some of the figures bandied around are based on assumptions like getting in a car to take the dog walkies).


Its uncomfortable to think that lovable Fido is responsible for massive CO2 emissions isnt it?

No plans to quit making babies. If society is heading for a hard crash, (and all indications are that we are going pedal to the metal toward the wall in some sort of collective madness), then having family around is going to be important. I'd wager that expending resources to feed kids is the priority over feeding pets. That certainly has been the historic observation of the choices made in hard times.

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Re: Recycling - tin cans or trays

#110074

Postby gryffron » January 13th, 2018, 8:55 am

UncleEbenezer wrote:
tjh290633 wrote:Another use for glass cullet, if it is not suitable for remelting, is as an abrasive or for use in road surfaces.

For what it's worth, recycled plastic also has a role in road surfaces.

The Victorians used coal ash as road surfacing. It drains well and is soft enough to not damage horses' hooves.

The slag scraped off the top of molten steel and glass is also crushed for roadstone. Anything that can survive in a vat of molten material has to be pretty hard wearing.

So it appears road surfacing has long been the goto use for all our otherwise unusable waste.

;)

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Re: Recycling - tin cans or trays

#110174

Postby redsturgeon » January 13th, 2018, 1:14 pm

Moderator Message:
Interesting as it is, some of the posts here are getting off topic...the OP's question is above. Please open a new topic elsewhere if you what to argue the pros and cons of pet owning.

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Re: Recycling - tin cans or trays

#110317

Postby Wuzwine » January 13th, 2018, 10:18 pm

Hi,

My local council say they can't collect black plastic trays as the sensors can't read the type of plastic. I think the collectors are meant to leave black and other non acceptables in the box. All other tray colours are accepted.

You should therefore check your local councils web site for a definite answer, as they all seem to differ!

Wuz

JessUK98
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Re: Recycling - tin cans or trays

#110576

Postby JessUK98 » January 15th, 2018, 10:36 am

UPDATE - I have popped into a branch of Pets at Home whilst I was in the area. The multi-packs come in a big cardboard box with the trays in. The trays don't have their own individual cardboard sleeves. They are in plastic trays with a thin plastic cover on them (you know, the ones you have to peel off - can't think of the correct terminology to use!). I don't think you can recycle the cover, but the trays you can.
Think I might carry on with the tins. They didn't seem to have any in the store though, so looks like I'll have to continue with the order online and have them delivered route.


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