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Smart Meters

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WrongLicence388
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Re: Smart Meters

#365977

Postby WrongLicence388 » December 14th, 2020, 10:18 am

This issue of SMETS 1 meters going 'dumb' won't be around for much longer. These meters are being enrolled into the DCC (Data Communications Company) next year, enrolment is being staged based on manufacturer and originating supplier. Once enrolled and adopted into the DCC they will behave like S2 meters. We should then be over the issue of meters churning to other suppliers and "going dumb".

Also FYI the meters don't go "dumb", rather the incoming supplier doesn't have the facilitate to use it in Smart mode.

C.

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Re: Smart Meters

#365984

Postby dspp » December 14th, 2020, 10:36 am

Even if you have a SMETS-2 meter fitted, a solar PV panel owner will still have to take manual readings from the PV generation meter each quarter and send them to their supplier in order to get the PV tariff payments, so there is no advantage there.

Even if you have a SMETS-2 meter fitted, a solar PV panel owner will still receive 'deemed' payments of 50% of generation as export. Depending on whether your actual own-consumption is higher or lower than the 50% this is either a bullet dodged, or an opportunity missed. In my case my export is typically >80% so I would benefit if deeming were substituted by SMETS-2, but since it isn't substituted there is no benefit for me in getting a SMETS-2.

If you have solar PV then the typical metering & information available from the solar kit is superior to the SMETS-2 information, so again there is no benefit in going to SMETS-2.

At present I cannot see any benefit or reason for me to go to SMETS-2, so personally I simply decline whenever the supplier or their stooges try to nudge me. The harder they nudge the more firmly I decline.

(and that is before one gets into discussions regarding time-of-use-price-variability, remote disconnection, etc)

regards, dspp

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Re: Smart Meters

#366001

Postby bungeejumper » December 14th, 2020, 11:12 am

One of our tenants had a SMES2 meter installed last June. Nightmare, from beginning to end.

The new smart meter physically killed the meter that fed the other properties within the building. And it it hadn't been for a statutory provision that meters must "fail safe" (i.e. they must continue to supply power even if it can't be metered), our other tenants would have been in a proper mess, and in the dark as well.

The new smart meter's energy supplier, Bulb, conceded that it was liable for sorting out the mess, but it said that it would take it six months to organise a new meter for the injured parties because of Covid. :( Five months later, we finally got the new meter - and it immediately failed, leaving our tenants completely in the dark. Thanks guys.

As dutiful landlords, we pitched in. Bulb said they'd send a man out the next day from the meter supplier (Siemens), but unfortunately they forgot to book him, so we waited around all day in the shivering cold and he didn't turn up. While our tenant got more and more worried. To cut a very long story short, the meter people had forgotten that they had just replaced the dead meter, and that meant that the electricity people were still trying to communicate with the old meter that was lying dead in a skip. And the thing was, Bulb couldn't diagnose it until we did an internet search and told them what they'd done wrong.

So whose fault was that shambles? Electricity supplier one, electricity supplier two, Covid, the meter supplier, or the eejits at all three who had set this catastrophe up and left our tenant shivering in the cold? Each of them was vaguely trying to blame the others, that's for sure, and it was left up to the customer (or rather, his landlord) to unscramble the mess they'd made for us.

So no, we won't be letting smart meters within spitting reach of any of our properties, thanks very much.

And I won't even bother telling you that our near neighbour has smart meters for dual-fuel gas and electricity, but the two meters can't communicate with each other because of the thick walls. So the power company gets the leccy readings online but it has to send out a man to get the gas readings from the exact same house. Oops, I just did. :lol:

BJ

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Re: Smart Meters

#366076

Postby PrefInvestor » December 14th, 2020, 1:44 pm

dspp wrote:Even if you have a SMETS-2 meter fitted, a solar PV panel owner will still have to take manual readings from the PV generation meter each quarter and send them to their supplier in order to get the PV tariff payments, so there is no advantage there.

Even if you have a SMETS-2 meter fitted, a solar PV panel owner will still receive 'deemed' payments of 50% of generation as export. Depending on whether your actual own-consumption is higher or lower than the 50% this is either a bullet dodged, or an opportunity missed. In my case my export is typically >80% so I would benefit if deeming were substituted by SMETS-2, but since it isn't substituted there is no benefit for me in getting a SMETS-2.

If you have solar PV then the typical metering & information available from the solar kit is superior to the SMETS-2 information, so again there is no benefit in going to SMETS-2.

At present I cannot see any benefit or reason for me to go to SMETS-2, so personally I simply decline whenever the supplier or their stooges try to nudge me. The harder they nudge the more firmly I decline.

(and that is before one gets into discussions regarding time-of-use-price-variability, remote disconnection, etc)
regards, dspp


Hi dspp, I accept all those points you’ve made about smart meters. However I don’t think that’s the whole picture from my perspective.

Like it or not smart meters are the future and at some point everyone will get forced to have them. Why do I say that, well because right now all of the big six have something in their terms and conditions for their tariffs where you have to agree to have a smart meter fitted within N months from going onto that tariff. And if you don’t the terms and conditions ALSO say that if you don’t they will put you on an emergency tariff which is mega expensive. That’s the situation I found myself in with EDF when I switched to them a while back. Right now you can still find suppliers who don’t apply those conditions, but at some time in the future you can be pretty sure that they will all be doing that. And even before that not having a smart meter may prove an impediment to getting onto a good tariff.

Also if you have a battery or an electric car then those special tariffs that allow you to charge up your car or battery at a cheap overnight rate can be a very good idea. And you have to have a smart meter to get onto those tariffs.

So as far as I’m concerned it’s just a matter of when not if, and avoiding any risks associated with the move is my main concern.

ATB

Pref

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Re: Smart Meters

#366081

Postby dspp » December 14th, 2020, 1:51 pm

PrefInvestor wrote:
Hi dspp, I accept all those points you’ve made about smart meters. However I don’t think that’s the whole picture from my perspective......
So as far as I’m concerned it’s just a matter of when not if, and avoiding any risks associated with the move is my main concern.

ATB

Pref


Pref,

That is one of the reasons I went to GoodEnergy as I became fed up dealing with the Big Six a long time ago (and I deal with some really good people in the Big Six continually in my day job). So for as long as I can just-say-no to the GoodEnergy metering folks then I will dig my heels in as long as I can. Regrettably in my case they can't even offer me a BEV-charge tariff as I have no off-street parking. There is so much pain and stupidity in the smart-metering world that I want to avoid it forever.

Regards,
dspp

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Re: Smart Meters

#366097

Postby UncleEbenezer » December 14th, 2020, 2:38 pm

dspp wrote: the Big Six


So who actually are "the Big Six"? At least one of those that was traditionally included (SSE) is now out of that game altogether!

I've seen it suggested we have a new Big Two - Ovo and Octopus!

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Re: Smart Meters

#366105

Postby dspp » December 14th, 2020, 3:02 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
dspp wrote: the Big Six


So who actually are "the Big Six"? At least one of those that was traditionally included (SSE) is now out of that game altogether!

I've seen it suggested we have a new Big Two - Ovo and Octopus!


British Gas
EDF Energy
E.ON
Npower >>>>>> EON
Scottish Power
SSE >>>>>>> OVO

So make that Big Five. It is a bit like the large accountants & mge consultancies. Anyway for now I am very happy with GoodEnergy and I have been with them for several year's now. In fact now I have imgur working for me again, here (below) are some system monitoring images for y'all. As you can see I get monitoring info from my SolarEdge system that is far improved over a mere SMETS-2 meter.

regards, dspp

Image

Image

Image

This one means I can monitor the performance of individual solar modules for any faults that would be latent if I did not have a SolarEdge system (or equivalent, and there aren't many that are equivalent). In 5-years of production I have so far had only one on-module DCDC converter fail, and that was auto-diagnosed and alerted to me by the built-in error checking, and replaced within a few weeks. I only put the export meter in about 5-months ago as you can see. The panels have not had a single was from me in the 5-years, and performance looks as good as new.
Image

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Re: Smart Meters

#366120

Postby PrefInvestor » December 14th, 2020, 3:54 pm

Hi Again dspp, Yes I have a SolarEdge inverter too and their remote monitoring facility is just outstanding, I can tell exactly what appliance is being turned on and how many Kwatts its using etc. Much better than a smart meter for sure.

Regarding Good Energy they have a reputation for being very "green" but unfortunately their tariffs are not very competitive as far as I can see. Took a look earlier and Gas is ~1p a unit more and electricity ~2-3p more than Im currently paying. I am with Bulb ATM who also pretty "green" and billing/service has been very good. I thought about putting the figures into my tariff comparison spreadsheet but havent done so as yet. I suspect that for my 2500Kw (Electricity) and 13,500 Kw (Gas) annual usage my guess is that Good Energy would be at least £250 more based on those differences. I could do even better than that I am sure but recent comparisons havent flagged up any really major savings.

ATB

Pref

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Re: Smart Meters

#366204

Postby PrefInvestor » December 14th, 2020, 7:12 pm

Hi Again dspp, Found this interesting presentation of pricing information on the Bulb website:-

https://bulb.co.uk/tariff/

Each vertical bar on the chart represents a tariff and the they are ordered from the most expensive to least expensive. If you put your mouse over each bar in turn it tells you the tariff/company and the price (for a standardised set of usage figures listed the bottom of the page). If you do that starting at the expensive end of the tariffs you will find Good Energy's tariffs occupy 3 of the most expensive 10 positions, including the two most expensive ones.

ATB

Pref

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Re: Smart Meters

#366215

Postby dspp » December 14th, 2020, 7:45 pm

PrefInvestor wrote:Hi Again dspp, Found this interesting presentation of pricing information on the Bulb website:-

https://bulb.co.uk/tariff/

Each vertical bar on the chart represents a tariff and the they are ordered from the most expensive to least expensive. If you put your mouse over each bar in turn it tells you the tariff/company and the price (for a standardised set of usage figures listed the bottom of the page). If you do that starting at the expensive end of the tariffs you will find Good Energy's tariffs occupy 3 of the most expensive 10 positions, including the two most expensive ones.

ATB

Pref


Thanks. I knew they were one of the more expensive when I signed with them ~5 years ago. I am with them because of their 100% renewables committment, and because of their push to actually build-out renewables. The cult of Julia does $$%^^ me off as I have told some of their board members over the years, but the Ecotricity cult annoys me even more.

regards, dspp

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Re: Smart Meters

#366420

Postby PrefInvestor » December 15th, 2020, 12:27 pm

Deleted

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Re: Smart Meters

#366573

Postby PrefInvestor » December 15th, 2020, 11:01 pm

Hi Again dspp, I was very interested in your images from your SolarEdge Monitoring system. I was comparing the results with our system and I noted that both your usage and generation for the week in question were both about half of ours. Your peak usage of 1.25Kwatt looked very low to me and your generation even lower. I reckon our kettle and microwave probably use more than that on their own ignoring any background load.

I was going to post my equivalent charts and have put them on imgur as JPEG’s but for some reason they don’t get displayed in a post when I use the IMG tags (copied your format). I just get an image icon displayed. Hence my “deleted” post above as I tried one and it didn’t work. Not sure what’s causing that.

Anyway ATB

Pref

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Re: Smart Meters

#366576

Postby dspp » December 15th, 2020, 11:10 pm

PrefInvestor wrote:Hi Again dspp, I was very interested in your images from your SolarEdge Monitoring system. I was comparing the results with our system and I noted that both your usage and generation for the week in question were both about half of ours. Your peak usage of 1.25Kwatt looked very low to me and your generation even lower. I reckon our kettle and microwave probably use more than that on their own ignoring any background load.

I was going to post my equivalent charts and have put them on imgur as JPEG’s but for some reason they don’t get displayed in a post when I use the IMG tags (copied your format). I just get an image icon displayed. Hence my “deleted” post above as I tried one and it didn’t work. Not sure what’s causing that.

Anyway ATB

Pref


Mine is a 3.6kW system, E-W facing. Is yours bigger and/or S facing.

My usage is low - the household is quite economical even with 3.5 adults in it.

Re imagery may I suggest you get an imgur account. BD explained to me ages ago why something like imgur is required as the photo host, and it works. That is how to post photos / images as jpg

(I grabbed that post by UE a while back and put his velux window picture into my imgur to get it to display)

Regards,
dspp

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Re: Smart Meters

#366606

Postby PrefInvestor » December 16th, 2020, 6:47 am

Hi Again dspp,

I have 12 x 335 watt panels close to south facing. Only 2 adults but we are in the house a lot of the time - especially at the moment. Usage is pretty low I thought, but not as low as yours looks to be !.

I already have an imgur account and have already put my images there as JPEGs and I copied your IMG tag format (to be sure of getting it right) but they don’t get displayed ☹️ I just get an icon displayed that says “image”. I have successfully posted images this way in the past, not done it for a long time though.

ATB

Pref

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Re: Smart Meters

#366607

Postby Itsallaguess » December 16th, 2020, 6:49 am

PrefInvestor wrote:
I have successfully posted images this way in the past, not done it for a long time though.


There's some detailed instructions here Pref, in case you're missing a step -

https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=11255

There's also a Test-Board here where you can safely try things out before posting on the main boards (the test board is swept clean regularly..) -

https://www.lemonfool.co.uk/viewforum.php?f=28

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: Smart Meters

#366756

Postby PrefInvestor » December 16th, 2020, 2:17 pm

Hi Again dspp, I found looking at your SolarEdge Monitoring pictures quite interesting and have posted my equivalents below for comparison (having finally managed to get image posting to work).

Comparing your generation and usage to mine. You look to be generating less than 1Kwatt per day and consuming less than 1.25Kwatt per day ?. Those seem very low figures to me ?. By comparison over the same period our figures look to be about twice that in both cases – though of course we may have had very different weather conditions.

Image
Image
Image

I added this image to show what our generation can be like even on a winters day provided that its sunny. Solar generation is more than meeting all our household needs most of the time with 62% being exported. Of course the hours of sunlight are much shorter in these winter months.

The spikes shown in our usage can be attributed to the following events:-
a) The big spike at 12:00 is caused by the oven going on to cook lunch
b) The first big spike in the evening is the dishwasher going on to do the days dishes
c) The second big spike is the washing machine going on.

Why not do these things during the day I hear you ask ?. Well we have a fixed routine that we are happy with and have no plans to change.

Image

ATB
Pref

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Re: Smart Meters

#452889

Postby XFool » October 25th, 2021, 11:58 am

I've just had a thought concerning Smart Meters - surprising I've never thought of it before.

I don't have smart meters, still putting off the day! The advantages/disadvantages/snags have been discussed ad nauseam, apart from one small(!) thing. If you have one, how are the payments taken?

As well as not having smart meters I don't use DDs for utility payments, I prefer quarterly bills and payments. If I had a smart meter could I continue with quarterly billing/payments or would I be forced onto DDs?

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Re: Smart Meters

#452898

Postby Mike4 » October 25th, 2021, 12:22 pm

XFool wrote:I've just had a thought concerning Smart Meters - surprising I've never thought of it before.

I don't have smart meters, still putting off the day! The advantages/disadvantages/snags have been discussed ad nauseam, apart from one small(!) thing. If you have one, how are the payments taken?

As well as not having smart meters I don't use DDs for utility payments, I prefer quarterly bills and payments. If I had a smart meter could I continue with quarterly billing/payments or would I be forced onto DDs?


I suspect yes. I still have a dumb meter too and when I last looked at changing suppliers, I was offered very few options. Most offerings required me to get a smart meter and give them authority to dip their sticky fingers into my bank account whenever they liked.

Nowadays I suspect I have no options to change suppliers. When my previous supplier who billed me quarterly went bust I was transferred to EDF who insist on billing me monthly which I find irritating beyond all reason. I'd love to find a supplier who bills quarterly but CBA to waste my time looking in today's 'energy climate'.

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Re: Smart Meters

#452899

Postby XFool » October 25th, 2021, 12:27 pm

Mike4 wrote:
XFool wrote:If I had a smart meter could I continue with quarterly billing/payments or would I be forced onto DDs?


I suspect yes. I still have a dumb meter too and when I last looked at changing suppliers, I was offered very few options. Most offerings required me to get a smart meter and give them authority to dip their sticky fingers into my bank account whenever they liked.

Nowadays I suspect I have no options to change suppliers. When my previous supplier who billed me quarterly went bust I was transferred to EDF who insist on billing me monthly which I find irritating beyond all reason. I'd love to find a supplier who bills quarterly but CBA to waste my time looking in today's 'energy climate'.

I am/was with British Gas. I recently changed from EoN to BG for electricity, precisely due to them forcing monthly payments (even though no smart meter). But BG are now sending me emails pointing out the 'advantage' of smart meters for billing! :(

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Re: Smart Meters

#453057

Postby madhatter » October 26th, 2021, 1:18 am

I am also with British Gas for both gas and electricity, I have a smart meter, and still have the same quarterly (not in advance) payment method as before getting the smart meter. Of course the bill always offers the DD option and estimates how much I could save by taking it, but (so far) they continue to accept the same process for payment as before.


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