Could this discrimination be legal?

[ten0rman]

Hi folks,
I've put this on this board 'cos I don't actually know where it should go. Perhaps the mods, if they think fit, might like to move it.

The problem.
My hearing has deteriorated drastically over the last 10 months or so, most probably due to Menieres. I've been to the medics, and as of last October been fitted with one replacement and one new hearing aid, the former for my right ear which I more or less lost 10 years ago, and the latter for my left ear which is the one which has "gone" recently. I do now hear a lot of sound, but, I have a lot of difficulty in deciphering it, indeed in even small gatherings, eg family, I've no chance of easily following a conversation. Even TV is now difficult to decipher, especially those weather forecasters (announcers?) who choose to allow their voice to vary in volume. I'm reasonably ok in a one to one situation where there is no extraneous sound. Also, since receiving the left aid, I have to move the telephone handset around to get the best position for hearing, and on occasion have resorted to removing the aid. I've even had to ask my sons to slow down their speech to give me a chance to understand what they are saying. FWIW, I have lost bass response so everything sounds tinny.

This afternoon, I spoke to a call centre and ended up with an Asian woman - at least I think she was Asian. She had the typical accent of Asian people, and the typical gabble type high speed delivery of these people. I had a lot of difficulty understanding her! Now, suppose I asked for someone with better speech in order to be able to understand what they are saying, would that be classed as discrimination? And if so would it be illegal, given that I have demonstrably poor hearing? Would it be legal to ask them to speak slowly to give me a chance of deciphering their speech?

One other question. These hearing aids were prescribed and fitted by the NHS. I'm wondering if I should go back and see if any improvement can be made. I'm also wondering if I should perhaps go privately.

Incidently, I am aware of the recent thread where it was said that some people do indeed have difficulty in deciphering speech in noisy situations, so I don't expect that to improve that much, if at all. But I am concerned that I can't understand (decipher) people on the telephone. Which is rather ironic as I am a retired 'phone engineer!

Regards,

ten0rman

[johnhemming]

Would it be legal to ask them to speak slowly to give me a chance of deciphering their speech?

They are required to make reasonable adjustments to deal with people who have difficulties with their hearing.

Article 14 of ECHR is often used to argue particularly that public authorities take into account disabilities of various forms.

On a separate point I am working on software to recognise speech in phone calls and if as a phone engineer you would like to test it then you would be welcome. Basically it sends a transcript of the phone call to a chat window whilst the call is going on.

[swill453]

This afternoon, I spoke to a call centre and ended up with an Asian woman - at least I think she was Asian. She had the typical accent of Asian people, and the typical gabble type high speed delivery of these people. I had a lot of difficulty understanding her! Now, suppose I asked for someone with better speech in order to be able to understand what they are saying, would that be classed as discrimination? And if so would it be illegal, given that I have demonstrably poor hearing? Would it be legal to ask them to speak slowly to give me a chance of deciphering their speech?

Are you being serious? This company is trying to provide you with customer service, and failing. If it was somehow illegal to insist on speaking to (or rather, being spoken to by) someone you can actually hear and understand, that would be entirely ridiculous.

Whether they can actually achieve it is another issue, but I think you can put your mind at rest that you won't be prosecuted for asking.

Scott.

[Slarti]

This company is trying to provide you with customer service, and failing. If it was somehow illegal to insist on speaking to (or rather, being spoken to by) someone you can actually hear and understand, that would be entirely ridiculous.

Whether they can actually achieve it is another issue, but I think you can put your mind at rest that you won't be prosecuted for asking.

As long as the request is politely framed and brings up the issue of the hearing problems, there should be no problem.


I say that as I used to have a relative who got quite rude with anybody she couldn't understand easily, even if it was because she hadn't put her hearing aids in. We had to intervene for her a couple of times where her phrasing could well have given insult.

Slarti

[UncleEbenezer]

On a separate point I am working on software to recognise speech in phone calls and if as a phone engineer you would like to test it then you would be welcome. Basically it sends a transcript of the phone call to a chat window whilst the call is going on.

Can I ask with whom are you working on that? A URL for the project would be ideal.

Many years back I worked in computer speech recognition including a postdoc research project. Somewhat more recently I worked on accessibility for people with disabilities, including with the W3C. So you're touching on two themes of my career!

[johnhemming]

Can I ask with whom are you working on that? A URL for the project would be ideal.

The only publicly available URL at the moment runs an interface into call centres. That is here:
https://calls.from-the-net.com/workflow ... sword=test

Basically there is a web server that links to a communications bridge. That uses WebRtc to link to Chrome (I have not bothered to make Firefox or Edge to work for now - it uses a multiplexing shared worker to bring things together and that may cause problems as well as I think it is only Chrome that can handle more than one PeerConnection).

Then there are streams that link to either Google or IBM (Watson)'s streaming services. Google is I think better than Watson, but both do real time streaming recognition at 8kHz. I am also using Watsons TTS as well as MaryTTS as a different option. I have tried Microsoft's TTS, but it has to be transcoded from 16kHz to 8kHz and that makes it a bit tinny.


The websockets is used to run a real time chat window and slot in the transcriptions (where it is doing interim transcriptions it will update the chat by replacing the interim values by final values).

Although there is a live server it is not really set us as a public facing service, but if anyone wants me to set them up a test account so they can try it out they are welcome. I am also working on it quite a lot so it is subject to quite a bit of change.

From a user's point of view (for this use case and there are lots of other ones)
a) They log in.
b) They establish an RTP (WebRtc) link between their laptop/desktop and the systems (click a green phone button).
c) That requests (using the SCTP data channel through the peerconnection) details of the phone number they want the system to dial (it uses SIP)
d) A chat window pops up with whatever is said by each of the endpoints in the call. It will do a conference call although I have not found out how many endpoints break it as yet.

It uses quite a bit of Apache Licence/MIT open source, but I have written the code in Java and Javascript that brings it together. One of my adult children is helping with some of the CSS.

Hence to make it work you need to be using Chrome. I am doing my testing using Windows. Linux should be OK as should probably Apple. I know Android has a problem in that it does not run a sharedworker, but I will probably find a way around that.

Anyone interested is welcome to play with the system on the live server. I will limit calls to 0800 and UK geographical, however. It needs to be accpted that it is a test system and liable to be broken by the developer without notice.

[BobbyD]

I'd avoid mention of anything which isn't relevant, like race, and just say that you have difficulty hearing and is it possible she has a colleague with slower more distinct phrasing you could speak to as you are having problems understanding her. I'd avoid using phrases like better speech as well...

[ten0rman]

swill453,
Am I being serious?
Too right I am. Given that it is illegal to discriminate on grounds of sex, race, religion, disability, and that offence can be taken by someone who is not directly affected by the alleged offence, it's a minefield out there and I certainly do not want to become involved in any problems because I have difficulty understanding certain residents of this country. Life's too short to try and explain about my health problems.

johnhemming,
Thanks for the offer, but no thanks. The problem is that taking on something like that would be just another thing to keep under control and I've enough going on at the moment without adding to the burden and increasing my stress levels.

To everyone else,
Thanks for the advice.

What happened was this. A few weeks ago I joined with the Daily Telegraph Big Switch as my current electric deal is shortly to end. I was advised by email that British Gas had "won" the reverse auction and that I should now go ahead and place an order. Unfortunately, when I did that, I discovered that there was no British Gas quote so I rang the help line to ask why. The first person I spoke to said that due to extreme busyness, someone would ring me back. This turned out to be the Asian woman I mentioned in the first post. That was yesterday, Sunday. I gained the impression that for some reason the email address I quoted wasn't recognised, but my understanding of her was so poor that I couldn't really understand what she was getting at. I did understand that someone else on the customer services team would ring back today, Monday. This in fact happened, and another Asian, whether male or female I could not tell, did indeed ring me back. This time I removed the hearing aid, lost some volume in the process, but I was able to understand rather better. Another factor was that this person also spoke slower which helped, and the voice was lower pitched which also helped. (It could have been a low pitched woman or a high pitched male.)

The answer to my original query was that British Gas were not able to quote for my area. Now whether this was because I'm all-electric or some other reason I do not know, but the next choice, EON, appears to be cheaper then the current supplier, Scottish Power, who in turn last year were cheaper than the previous supplier - none other than EON!

Anyway, I now know what to do in future - do as BobbyD suggests, and ask for a colleague with a slower and more distinct phrasing as I'm having problems understanding her/him. I'm also considering speaking to the NHS Audiology Service to see if I can get another check.

Regards and thanks,

ten0rman

[Lootman]

I agree with BobbyD. Referring to the various agents as "Asian" really doesn't develop sympathy for your cause. It reeks with the idea that you are blaming things on the race of the agent.

[midnightcatprowl]

I agree with BobbyD. Referring to the various agents as "Asian" really doesn't develop sympathy for your cause. It reeks with the idea that you are blaming things on the race of the agent.

Agree 100% I mean what exactly does 'Asian' mean - it covers the inhabitants of more than one continent (plus of course spread in large numbers across the whole of the world). It covers who knows how many cultures and mother tongues. How can all these people possibly have a 'typical' accent and speed of speech? Is the Company Secretary of the estate of which I am a fellow director 'Asian' well he almost certainly comes under that vague classification with a family origin two or three generations ago maybe in India or Pakistan (I haven't asked), but his accent? Well probably best described as 'educated' + residual tones of the London Council Estate where he grew up plus relaxed with ultra clear diction - like mine is 'educated' + residual elements of the north eastern council estate where I grew up (and I think I have pretty clear diction too)! I live in an area where you will be interacting with someone you might describe as 'Asian' on multiple occasions each day. Some have Irish accents, some have Brummie accents, some have Scottish accents, some have Welsh accents and rather a lot of them these days have the accent of Bedfordshire which certainly doesn't come attached to a fast speech delivery!

I'm not being unsympathetic - I'm getting older and for me too conversations in noisy environments and sometimes telephone calls are becoming more difficult too! Though I like the sound of Welsh accents I do sometimes have problems with Call Centres in Wales - be the call takers 'Asian' or otherwise! I work in a volunteer situation with an 'Asian' lady and sometimes I can't follow everything she is saying but actually it is because she has a particular Scottish accent I find a bit difficult even though part of my family of origin were long settled in Glasgow and had the Glaswegian accent full throttle but this is not the Glaswegian accent.

Please don't think for a moment that I don't understand the sort of delivery of English and speed of delivery of English and accent of English which you describe. Maybe what is described as a 'Chi Chi' accent and delivery speed in India? I do understand and it can be difficult to follow once your hearing is no longer perfect - though of course if you happened to be 'in tune' as it were with that particular type of speech you might be delighted to hear it and actually find it an advantage once your hearing was no longer perfect?

But it is one thing to say to a call centre operative - sorry but I have a hearing difficulty can you speak more slowly? Or to say 'Sorry but I have a hearing difficulty and I'm still finding it really difficult to understand you as you are speaking so fast'. Or to say ' Sorry but I have a hearing difficulty and I just can't follow what you are saying - please can you put me through to someone who can help me? And so on.

If you tackle it this way everything you are saying is simply a matter of fact. You have a hearing problem so you can't follow what is being said by one particular person - it isn't an issue that (bizarrely) they have some form of speech typical of 'Asians' (whatever you might conceive 'Asians' to be) you just because of your hearing problem can't understand that particular person. To say that you can not understand that particular person because of your particular hearing problem is no more discriminatory than to say you can't understand Theresa May or Jeremy Corbyn because of your particular hearing problem. You've got a hearing problem - it's sad but it is true and it can apply to anyone but most of us will come to it if we just live long enough! It is absolutely okay to ask for help related to your hearing problem, including asking to speak to someone else if the first person can't alter their speech and speed of delivery sufficiently to accommodate your needs. It is not only discriminatory but offensive and actually makes no sense to suggest that someone else's speech is typical of them being 'Asian'.

[ten0rman]

midnightcatprowl,

I said Asian because in my limited experience it is indeed people who originate from that part of the world who speak in such a fashion. I'm well aware that there are a lot of different nationalities from that neck of the woods. So ok, maybe I should have said Asian & Indian. Or maybe I should have said "immigrant stock". Does that make it any better? The plain fact is, and I can't repeat that often enough, my heart sinks whenever I make a 'phone call and someone answers with that type of accent because I know that I am likely to have difficulty understanding them. I don't have a problem with other, shall we say, British accents, although I do strongly dislike one or two - mainly those from "dahn sarf"!

Yes I have a medical problem which isn't going to be going away anytime soon. So what do you expect me to do? Give up on the telephone? Retreat into my shell just because there are people out there who appear to unable to speak English in a manner that I have grown up with and become accustomed to, who instead speak a kind of pseudo-English delivered at a machine-gun pace and with strange pronunciations. I mentioned in yesterday's post that I spoke with another person with this type of delivery. May I point out that this person did not know how to pronounce my home county, yet I was able to understand what was being said. Why? Because he/she spoke with a slightly lower pitch and at a slower speed.

I would also point out that there are a large number of immigrant stock whose speech patterns are completely acceptable, probably even better than my own: a gentleman from EON who dealt with a problem on their computer affecting my service; a pair of men at BT who some years ago sorted out a problem on my computer for me; a female Docter in my local hospital who dealt with me during my heart attack and afterwards even though my (then) good ear was blocked up with wax; and so on. I don't have a problem with immigrants as such, indeed for a period of about 20 years my GP was a husband and wife Muslim team - and very good they were too.

I simply have a problem with certain people whose speech pattern indicates that they are of immigrant stock, and through limited experience, I have come to realise that these people are generally of Asian origin. Or maybe Indian origin. I stress, that is my experience, limited though it may be. And I do have an objection to people trying to tell me off for it.

Actually, I'd just like to relate a little story - absolutely nothing to do with the above. Nine years ago I had to have my all bladder removed. Now my GP at the time was Irish. His request for an endoscopy was intercepted by an Asian consultant who correctly diagnosed the problem and then passed me on to a colleague for surgery. This chap was Polish. And when it came to the actual surgery day, I was attended to by a registrar who I can only describe as black African. (I say that because I don't know where he came from - he could have been Caribbean for all I know - it's purely descriptive.) In fact the anaesthetist was the only English person present, other than nursing staff. I had no problem with any of them.

ten0rman

[chas49]

Moderator Message:
This topic has moved quite a way from the simple q&a expected on the DAK board.
It will be appreciated if further posts stick to answering the original question (chas49)

[johnhemming]

English and Hindi are both official languages in India. There is, however, quite a distinctive accent to Indian English to the extent that in Microsoft's automated system for converting from text to speech they provide a range of different types of English GB, US, CA, AU, IE and IN).

[BobbyD]

midnightcatprowl,

I said Asian because in my limited experience it is indeed people who originate from that part of the world who speak in such a fashion. I'm well aware that there are a lot of different nationalities from that neck of the woods. So ok, maybe I should have said Asian & Indian. Or maybe I should have said "immigrant stock". Does that make it any better?

Your problem is that you have difficulty understanding people whose speech has certain properties. Asking to speak to somebody whose speech doesn't have those properties is reasonable and unlikely to offend anyone. The race/place of origin of the speaker may well correlate with the speech properties you have difficulty with to a greater or lesser degree, but isn't actually relevant to your request. I'm not suggesting you change the way you refer to it, I'm suggesting you don't refer to it at all when describing your problem to the call center worker, just describe the sort of voice you find easier to follow not the person you believe it will belong to.

You are concerned that your request might be construed as racist, my point is that if you leave race out of it it won't be.