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Watches - an investment?

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Clariman
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Watches - an investment?

#124084

Postby Clariman » March 11th, 2018, 10:17 pm

As you may know I'm not really an investor, nor do I go in for status items. However, I've just bought an expensive watch (expensive as far as I am concerned). It was a top of the range Longines watch and was half price in a closing down sale of a very reputable establishment. I cannot see any website offering a price anywhere near the deal which I got.

Are proper gold, chronograph watches like this an investment or just something nice to have? Is it common to be able to get 50% off or have I just been very lucky?

Clariman

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Re: Watches - an investment?

#124085

Postby Lootman » March 11th, 2018, 10:25 pm

My first thought is that, like any collectible, the bid-to-offer spread will be considerable. Meaning that just because the quoted offer price for the item may be twice what you paid, when you come to sell it the bid price will be much lower.

That said, if you can turn an instant profit and lock in a gain, then you should do it. But then why did this business, which presumably knew the value of such items, give away such a profit?

The other side of it, again like any collectible, is do you derive pleasure from owning it and wearing it, and wish to hold it for the long term? And if so, what is the appreciation likely to be based on past performance?

I don't know anything about watches, although I have a friend who specialises in maintaining and fixing antique watches, and he charges a LOT.

I've dabbled in coins in the past but, to be frank, I consider my main reward to be the pleasure I derived from them rather than any profit.

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Re: Watches - an investment?

#124126

Postby IanSmithISA » March 12th, 2018, 7:16 am

Good morning,

I have a Tudor Black Shield which I bought because I loved the idea, it is a mechanical watch which no one needs in a ceramic case which is even more impractical. :-)

At 50% off it appears likely that you got the watch at pretty much what the dealer paid for it, so yes it was a good discount.

As an investment though, whilst Longines have a proud tradition they are not the brand sought by people who want a watch to show off that they have made it, typically a Rolex Submariner or Daytona or the Omega Speedmaster or Seamaster. Nor are they particularly special in terms of movement, finish or features, instead they tend to be bought by people who like the watch. With a 50% discount so you may be able to sell it again today for a small profit as virtually unused, but as it becomes used the demand is not likely to be there.

Whilst used examples of certain very well known brand are being offered in dealers at close to new prices it is much less clear what they are actually being sold for, sites such as

https://www.chrono24.co.uk/
or
http://www.watchfinder.co.uk/

can give you a hint are what is on offer and for how long before it sells and you could possibly look at

https://www.iconicwatches.co.uk/

as well who are a grey market dealer, they buy brand new watches from dealers around the world who are overstocked and resell them still unworn.

You didn't mention if it has a quartz or a mechanical movement, mechanical movement do need servicing typically every 3-5 years, so an un-serviced 3 year old watch comes with a £200 plus bill attached.

So it is really a watch to wear and enjoy not to put in a draw and never wear for the fear of damaging it.

Sorry for being the bearer of bad news :(

Bye

Ian

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Re: Watches - an investment?

#124128

Postby Clariman » March 12th, 2018, 7:41 am

Thanks everyone. That was very useful - just the sort of information that I was looking for.

IanSmithISA wrote:As an investment though, whilst Longines have a proud tradition they are not the brand sought by people who want a watch to show off that they have made it, typically a Rolex Submariner or Daytona or the Omega Speedmaster or Seamaster.


There is mixed blessing in there. On one hand, I'm pleased about the bit I have highlighted, because I am absolutely not the type of person to buy anything to show off with - it just isn't in my make. I would hate it if people thought I was trying to send a message by wearing it. On the other hand, if that means there isn't a market for it in the future, then that is a downside. However, I bought it because I liked it.

Nor are they particularly special in terms of movement, finish or features

For my education, what kind of things would be seen as special?

You didn't mention if it has a quartz or a mechanical movement, mechanical movement do need servicing typically every 3-5 years, so an un-serviced 3 year old watch comes with a £200 plus bill attached.

It is mechanical. The £200 servicing bill disappoints me though, because I specifically asked if there were those types of costs. Over the years I have observed that one of the big downsides of buying an expensive item, is that the associated ongoing costs tend to be higher too. The most expensive watch I have ever bought was about £350 and it always bugs me that it costs about £90 to get a new watch strap for it, so it tends to sit in the drawer and I buy myself a £25 watch to wear (with a leather strap!). Eventually I'll buy a new strap for it.

Thanks again.
C

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Re: Watches - an investment?

#124143

Postby IanSmithISA » March 12th, 2018, 8:39 am

Good morning,

Clariman wrote:
Nor are they particularly special in terms of movement, finish or features

For my education, what kind of things would be seen as special?
[/quote]
That's a big question. :-)

The movement (caliber) is one of those things that will always start an unwinnable argument.

Should a luxury watch maker make their own movement, buy one in, or buy one in and customise it?

Once quartz watches came into being, the Swiss mechanical watch industry almost died out, after a bit of consolidation etc two names, Vajoux and ETA emerged as part of the Swatch group and they made most of the movements for most of the Swiss watch brands that people have heard of.

A few years back most customers were told that supplies were being reduced and they would have to make their own, but the expectation now is that a mechanical watch that costs over a few thousand pounds should meet the COSC standard which is an accuracy of -4/+6 seconds a day.

This is not a trivial thing to do so the materials used and who make what is interesting. A lot of things go on behind the scenes, recently both Breitling and Tudor announced new movements but it turned own that Tudor supply one of their movements to Breitling with a few tweaks as a Breitling movement and Breitling did the same in reverse.

A while back TAG got caught out telling people that they had a new movement forgetting to mention that it was an enhancement of a Seiko design.

Some interesting movement features are the Tourbillon, co axial movements, or the Seiko Spring Drive.

Finish can be interesting materials such as the Omega Dark/Grey/White Side Of the Move which is ceramic, bronze is popular at the moment and the Tudor Black Bay Bronze is gorgeous in the metal. Individual Customization - Bamford Watch Department or ProHunter this is a very contentious subject, or Grand Seiko which has a great reputation for very high quality manual finishes on both the metal and watch face.

Features (complications) tend to be irrelevant fun things like power reserves, multiple time zones or moon phase dials or going to the extreme we have http://www.hytwatches.com/ which has done away with hands and uses a fluid to display the time.

Given that nobody needs anything more expensive than a Timex, we watch fans need to invent things to justify spending our money. ;)

Bye

Ian

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Re: Watches - an investment?

#124164

Postby JMN2 » March 12th, 2018, 9:54 am

IIRC there was a thread on this elsewhere. I enjoyed my small Rolex collection for 15-20 years and when I sold the whole lot I made some money ouf of it, newer Air Kings lost money due to being still inside bid/offer, my favourite Explorer broke even and oldest Submariner had more than doubled in price, resulting in a small positive monetary return and some enjoyment in the early years..

Now I'm very happy to use 1980's army-issue CWC quartz I bought for £50 ages ago, repros retailing around £130 at the moment.

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Re: Watches - an investment?

#124169

Postby scrumpyjack » March 12th, 2018, 10:16 am

If you like it and it gives you pleasure, fine. But I can't see mechanical watches being an investment. The very finest quill pen isn't worth much now!

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Re: Watches - an investment?

#124184

Postby tea42 » March 12th, 2018, 10:38 am

I have a light titanium watch that operates solely by solar power, it never needs a new battery. Its more accurate than any Rolex chronometer because its constantly updated from an atomic clock by radio. At the equinoxes it automatically resets itself. Time zones are dead easy, just press a couple of buttons and it resets itself. At night or when its in the dark it goes to sleep and the second hand points to 12 oclock. Give it a shake and watch the second hand scroll around to the correct time. It has other modes that I never use.

Its a £114 titanium Casio Waveceptor. http://www.watchshop.com/mens-casio-wav ... 62376.html

Looks quite smart too.. Nearly forgot, Casio provides a little tool that enables you to insert or remove watch band links yourself.

I met an old friend recently, he sported an identical watch. We held our wrists up together, the second hands were precisely synchronised in motion.

Its the sort of thing that I like, inexpensive, practical, non showy and better than anything else in its primary function. I believe its a great investment

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Re: Watches - an investment?

#124194

Postby JMN2 » March 12th, 2018, 11:43 am

scrumpyjack wrote:If you like it and it gives you pleasure, fine. But I can't see mechanical watches being an investment. The very finest quill pen isn't worth much now!


Well, let's put it this way. One is not very likely to lose money on some Rolex watches like Submariner or Millgaus. As Rolex hikes the official prices every year or so the price of the older watches increases in lock-step. Then there are some special vintage models like 1680 "Red" which are worth a small fortune.

How about 1950's Porsche? Not worth much money I guess because my Kia on the driveway is much more modern and reliable.

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Re: Watches - an investment?

#124205

Postby tea42 » March 12th, 2018, 12:44 pm

JMN2 wrote:
How about 1950's Porsche? Not worth much money I guess because my Kia on the driveway is much more modern and reliable.


Ah! But that Porsche will be holding its value, if not appreciating, meanwhile that Kia is losing money fast… You need a split screen VW camper instead, as now driven mostly by banksters.. :lol:

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Re: Watches - an investment?

#124207

Postby Watis » March 12th, 2018, 12:50 pm

I delight in wearing a cheap and cheerful watch that wouldn't cause me a moment's grief were it to be lost or stolen.

But, were I to have a change of heart and want to 'invest' in an expensive timepiece, I would be drawn to a Bremont. These chronometers - too expensive to be mere 'watches'- are made in Britain yet I had not heard of them until recently. Although only made since 2002, there appears to be a thriving market in used examples.

https://www.bremont.com/

What do the LemonFool watch experts think of them?

Watis

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Re: Watches - an investment?

#124221

Postby tea42 » March 12th, 2018, 1:39 pm

Bremont made local to me. Sometimes advertise for employees. Much of the cost of such devices is the costs of marketing and promotion. If people are willing to pay lots of money for that its their choice. Whatever floats your boat…

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Re: Watches - an investment?

#124245

Postby Lootman » March 12th, 2018, 2:17 pm

Clariman wrote:
You didn't mention if it has a quartz or a mechanical movement, mechanical movement do need servicing typically every 3-5 years, so an un-serviced 3 year old watch comes with a £200 plus bill attached.

It is mechanical. The £200 servicing bill disappoints me though, because I specifically asked if there were those types of costs. Over the years I have observed that one of the big downsides of buying an expensive item, is that the associated ongoing costs tend to be higher too. The most expensive watch I have ever bought was about £350 and it always bugs me that it costs about £90 to get a new watch strap for it, so it tends to sit in the drawer and I buy myself a £25 watch to wear (with a leather strap!). Eventually I'll buy a new strap for it.

I mentioned my friend who works on antique clocks and watches. 200 quid isn't that much for such work. I was in his workshop once when a customer came in to collect his item - the bill was a thousand pounds. The customer looked shocked but paid up and left.

Afterwards I asked my friend how he came up with a thousand pounds. He replied: "It's a hundred pounds for my time, and nine hundred pounds for knowing how to do it".

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Re: Watches - an investment?

#124284

Postby robbelg » March 12th, 2018, 3:59 pm

tea42 wrote:I have a light titanium watch that operates solely by solar power, it never needs a new battery. Its more accurate than any Rolex chronometer because its constantly updated from an atomic clock by radio. At the equinoxes it automatically resets itself. Time zones are dead easy, just press a couple of buttons and it resets itself. At night or when its in the dark it goes to sleep and the second hand points to 12 oclock. Give it a shake and watch the second hand scroll around to the correct time. It has other modes that I never use.

Its a £114 titanium Casio Waveceptor. http://www.watchshop.com/mens-casio-wav ... 62376.html

Looks quite smart too.. Nearly forgot, Casio provides a little tool that enables you to insert or remove watch band links yourself.

I met an old friend recently, he sported an identical watch. We held our wrists up together, the second hands were precisely synchronised in motion.

Its the sort of thing that I like, inexpensive, practical, non showy and better than anything else in its primary function. I believe its a great investment



My watch started playing up last week and was pronounced dead at lunchtime today!

This watch is EXACTLY what I want as a replacement - on order now.

Thank you


Rob


PS apologies to Clariman for hijacking his thread.

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Re: Watches - an investment?

#124286

Postby Clariman » March 12th, 2018, 4:00 pm

Lootman wrote:Afterwards I asked my friend how he came up with a thousand pounds. He replied: "It's a hundred pounds for my time, and nine hundred pounds for knowing how to do it".

Now you're scaring me Lootman! :o

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Re: Watches - an investment?

#124863

Postby martint123 » March 14th, 2018, 3:40 pm

tea42 wrote:I have a light titanium watch that operates solely by solar power, it never needs a new battery.


I also have a light titanium watch (lorus aka seiko?), but it operates solely by charging a capacitor from a 'kinetic' winder (like the old automatics)
I'm guessing yours also has a capacitor for periods of darkness...... After having had two replacement capacitors, I've put it in the drawer with my other dead watches and gone back to my old clunky Seiko from 1970-odd.

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Re: Watches - an investment?

#124967

Postby csearle » March 14th, 2018, 9:47 pm

martint123 wrote:I also have a light titanium watch (lorus aka seiko?), but it operates solely by charging a capacitor from a 'kinetic' winder (like the old automatics)
The line between the function of a capacitor and a cell/battery became blurred when the achievable values of capacitance became huge, eh?

Chris

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Re: Watches - an investment?

#124979

Postby tea42 » March 14th, 2018, 11:33 pm

martint123 wrote:
tea42 wrote:I have a light titanium watch that operates solely by solar power, it never needs a new battery.


I also have a light titanium watch (lorus aka seiko?), but it operates solely by charging a capacitor from a 'kinetic' winder (like the old automatics)
I'm guessing yours also has a capacitor for periods of darkness...... After having had two replacement capacitors, I've put it in the drawer with my other dead watches and gone back to my old clunky Seiko from 1970-odd.


No capacitor, just a battery charged by a solar cell. If the battery died I believe you can replace it.

Al

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Re: Watches - an investment?

#125074

Postby Hardgrafter » March 15th, 2018, 11:39 am

Kinetic drive watches nowadays use Li-Ion batteries, not capacitors. Li-Ion batteries were only fully commercialized in about 2005, so older Seiko Kinetics (from 1986) used capacitors.

http://www.seiko.co.uk/discover-seiko/t ... gy/kinetic

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Re: Watches - an investment?

#125398

Postby Gaggsy » March 16th, 2018, 3:00 pm

Clariman wrote:For my education, what kind of things would be seen as special?
C


Something along these lines would be special: http://bocadolobo.com/blog/exclusive/th ... 1-million/

The Marie Antionette watch was the subject of a documentary with Nicholas Parsons - fascinating!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/p049kgq2


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