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What is a reasonable hourly rate for a l6 yr old who helps in the garden

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UncleIan
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Re: What is a reasonable hourly rate for a l6 yr old who helps in the garden

#137683

Postby UncleIan » May 9th, 2018, 8:59 am

Bouleversee wrote:He did say it was done on line. My doubt, however, was about whether a teacher would want it handed in by Sunday evening when Monday was a Bank Holiday and then his excuse for being late on the Monday was because he needed to do more school work. I, too, suspect a bit of fibbing.

Thanks to all for comments and advice. I might have known it would all come down to my being a bad manager. Difficult to micromanage when your husband is dying and then have to deal with the aftermath of all that. I do my best.


It's just the way he's been brought up, and probably a certain amount of immaturity. Unless the world does in fact revolve around him. Very tricky to change that mindset, especially if it doesn't want to be changed. No doubt if you end up parting ways he'll think it's down to you not him.

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Re: What is a reasonable hourly rate for a l6 yr old who helps in the garden

#137684

Postby didds » May 9th, 2018, 9:02 am

bad management? Hardly. He's self employed, not an employee. You have set expectations, provided training which has failed to meet its mark, and advised in-role and had discussions about reliability etc already. You are already managing it. He is not for whatever reasons.

What else are you supposed to do - collect and deliver him to and from home as well?

didds

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Re: What is a reasonable hourly rate for a l6 yr old who helps in the garden

#137687

Postby Dod101 » May 9th, 2018, 9:14 am

Bouleversee wrote:He did say it was done on line. My doubt, however, was about whether a teacher would want it handed in by Sunday evening when Monday was a Bank Holiday and then his excuse for being late on the Monday was because he needed to do more school work. I, too, suspect a bit of fibbing.

Thanks to all for comments and advice. I might have known it would all come down to my being a bad manager. Difficult to micromanage when your husband is dying and then have to deal with the aftermath of all that. I do my best.


Actually I do not think it is down to you at all. I think it is simply that he is the wrong person for the job. You should be able to say this is what needs to be done and let him get on with it. Maybe your only 'fault' is that you seem not prepared to pay the going rate. I would say that at your age just grasp the nettle, get a reputable firm, sit back and let them get on with it and then they bills as they come in. One of the hazards of having a garden as we all get older is that it needs maintenance and when we cannot do it ourselves...........It will come to me in the next few years as well, although currently my problem is finding enough time to keep on top of it rather physical constraints.

Good luck however you resolve it.

Dod

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Re: What is a reasonable hourly rate for a l6 yr old who helps in the garden

#137707

Postby Bouleversee » May 9th, 2018, 11:02 am

Dod -

I am prepared to pay the going rate; NB the heading of my first post on this thread! I am trying to establish the appropriate rate for a youngster and prepared to give some latitude for inexperience in line with a lower rate than one pays so-called professionals, many of whom are not. I have in the past employed some of them at extortionate rates who did not do what I had asked, i.e. dividing and pruning I can't do myself, and instead did simple easy stuff I can manage quite easily sitting on a stool or sweeping out my garage; I don't need to pay £25 hr + VAT for that. Most of them haven't a clue about pruning either. I was once working in my garden when I overhead a young employee of an expensive gardening service working next door ask his boss what he should do about the ground elder, which was prolific and a nuisance for me to stop encroaching into my garden. The answer: just pull the tops off. We had various older gardeners for our large garden in Herts.where we lived for 30 yrs. before we moved here without any problems but I haven't managed to find one here.

DrBunsenHoneydew
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Re: What is a reasonable hourly rate for a l6 yr old who helps in the garden

#137715

Postby DrBunsenHoneydew » May 9th, 2018, 11:19 am

Personally, I wouldn't put up with it any longer. As a reasonably wealthy person, I'd look harder for a proper gardening service and pay the going rate, whatever it costs. I'd also be looking to move house in the medium term.

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Re: What is a reasonable hourly rate for a l6 yr old who helps in the garden

#137928

Postby melonfool » May 9th, 2018, 9:32 pm

You should not have to manage your gardener, you are not a line manager, you are a client. It is not your fault at all.

It's clear that you want to be a positive influence in the lad's life and that is very kind of you. But, he does need a harsher life lesson.

We are just going through our pay review and our top performer is set to get a 9% pay increase. 10% on this lad's £7 would put him at £7.70. CPI is c2.8%. Why does he think he is suddenly entitled to such a huge rise?

I'm not a massive fan of linking pay to age, though obviously with age comes experience in some cases (for example, at 50 I would get full living wage, but if you employed me as a gardener I would have 0 experience [though I'd still be better than him, but I digress...]) but I think pay should be based on skill and market rate.

So, for skill we have - very low, so min wage level £4.20.

For market rate we have - anything up to £30ph by the look of it.

Compared to other low skilled roles locally where you have ascertained people get c£5ph, his £7 looks good.

I think I'd be tempted to say you will give him a raise, to £7.50. I would also say that if he were more reliable you would 1) probably find yourself well disposed to putting some more hours his way when his exams are over and 2) look at his pay again in two months time.

You might also consider asking him to replace lost or damaged tools!

Mel

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Re: What is a reasonable hourly rate for a l6 yr old who helps in the garden

#137935

Postby Bouleversee » May 9th, 2018, 10:09 pm

Mel:

Many thanks. Funnily enough (perhaps female brains work the same) this morning I paid 3 x £7.50 into his bank account and this afternoon I emailed him the minimum wage table and said pretty much what you have said, pointing out that the min. wage has only gone up 5% in this period, which would only be £7.35 but I had put him up to £7.50, mentioned politely his various deficiencies, and the tools etc. (though didn't ask for reimbursement), said I was prepared to look at it again when he was 17 but for the time being I would require a lot of convincing that he was worth any more but if he had had better offers, I wouldn't want to stand in his way. I asked whether he had discussed it with his parents and what they thought and said we could discuss further at the weekend. He knows I would employ him for as many hours as he could offer (he has sometimes done 5 or 6 hrs. and I have given him some lunch) but he must put his school work first. At £9 hr. I might have to apply the brake, however.

I also said I was going to be away from early Monday to late Tuesday and it would suit me better if he could come on Saturday rather than Sunday (the lawn already needs cutting) and could he let me know a.s.a.p. if that would suit his schedule or not so I could plan my own time. No reply as yet. I may have seen the last of him.

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Re: What is a reasonable hourly rate for a l6 yr old who helps in the garden

#137990

Postby didds » May 10th, 2018, 8:17 am

Bouleversee wrote: I may have seen the last of him.


This is easy for me to say, but I think that would be the best outcome.

Your expectations and his are clearly poles apart. WADR to somebody I've never met etc, and sounding like I am bagging the young, I doubt very much he is going to change his work approach overnight. He already has had plenty of opportunity to do so. I would also suggest that your suggestion of a possible review in two months time will be taken by him as a definite. Expect a demand/request for an increased rate in two months time with confusion if you say "no".

I perceived "the going rate" hinted at above was not the rate for the lad but for a professional gardener... however I understand your experiences entirely. I have no solutions there in particular other than outlining exactly what needs doing and avoiding leeway for the low hanging fruit that you are capable of doing yourself (as described).

didds

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Re: What is a reasonable hourly rate for a l6 yr old who helps in the garden

#137997

Postby redsturgeon » May 10th, 2018, 9:01 am

melonfool wrote:You should not have to manage your gardener, you are not a line manager, you are a client. It is not your fault at all.

Mel


When I said a failure of management I was talking a little tongue in cheek and thinking more in terms of project management rather than line management.

I fully agree that you should not need to act as a line manager with a professional gardener (or any other professional employed to do a job for you) but unless a clear set of expectations are in place then you are likely to be disappointed with the outcome and to be fair this young man is not a professional gardener.

Trying to save you time and effort in the long term with this young man I'd suggest that a much tighter set of expectations and rules need to be put in place and enforced.

My own son has just turned 17 and is looking for a part time job, there is little around that is any more that £7 per hour for his age and much that is around £5. If he took on a job then I would expect him to turn up when expected, on time and to do a good job while there, I'd also hope that he could show some initiative once he had settled in and not need to be told exactly what to do all the time. He is looking to help out the green keeper at the local golf club...£5 per hour, 5am starts in the summer and hard graft raking out bunkers and preparing greens!

I'd tend to agree that this young man is not really what you need but also that you do not need the services of a full on professional gardener, so I think talk of £30 per hour is not really relevant here.

Good luck with sorting out your garden, I hope either he gets a lot better or you find someone else.

John

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Re: What is a reasonable hourly rate for a l6 yr old who helps in the garden

#138010

Postby Bouleversee » May 10th, 2018, 9:27 am

Red Sturgeon -

Thanks for the para about your son which is the sort of information I was looking for and is indeed more relevant to the situation. Which part of the country do you live in?

I can assure you I have had numerous stern talks with the boy, for his own good, laying down the law but any improvement hasn't lasted long. My daughter, who has a son a bit younger, says that's what all boys are like these days. We'll see how he turns out. All I can say is God help us when/if they are all given £10k by the govt. out of our tax when they hit 25.

Still no response re weekend work day (or the pay situation) though he did accept my offer to drop off while passing some plastic netting he had scrounged for his uncle's garden but forgot to take.

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Re: What is a reasonable hourly rate for a l6 yr old who helps in the garden

#138014

Postby redsturgeon » May 10th, 2018, 9:36 am

Bouleversee wrote:Red Sturgeon -

Thanks for the para about your son which is the sort of information I was looking for and is indeed more relevant to the situation. Which part of the country do you live in?

I can assure you I have had numerous stern talks with the boy, for his own good, laying down the law but any improvement hasn't lasted long. My daughter, who has a son a bit younger, says that's what all boys are like these days. We'll see how he turns out. All I can say is God help us when/if they are all given £10k by the govt. out of our tax when they hit 25.

Still no response re weekend work day (or the pay situation) though he did accept my offer to drop off while passing some plastic netting he had scrounged for his uncle's garden but forgot to take.


I live in Winchester.

John

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Re: What is a reasonable hourly rate for a l6 yr old who helps in the garden

#138018

Postby Bouleversee » May 10th, 2018, 9:48 am

Thanks, John. Not too far away and also quite an affluent area so should be comparable.

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Re: What is a reasonable hourly rate for a l6 yr old who helps in the garden

#138109

Postby PaulBullet » May 10th, 2018, 3:56 pm

What ever happens you still need a helper.

I suggest you write down what you would expect for some wage levels

so for £7 per hour I would expect them to be able to cut the grass unaided, etc.

then for £8 per hour what extra they would be able to do

I expect all his short comings you would expect even at £5 per hour such as turn up on time, be polite etc.

If he comes back, you can use your expectations against his expectations. So if he wants £9 ph then you show him what he must be able to do and tell him that you will work with him over time to raise his skill level to meet his wage expectations.

If he does not come back, you can advertise for a garden helper and ask them what they can do and use your expectations to gauge your pay offer.

"pay will be based on skills and experience"

Also I expect you would be happy to pay him more than he actually wants, but you would actually want value for money

Paul

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Re: What is a reasonable hourly rate for a l6 yr old who helps in the garden

#138178

Postby wickham » May 10th, 2018, 9:24 pm

Bouleversee wrote:No reply as yet. I may have seen the last of him.


Oh dear. He'll tell his mates and you won't get anyone to work for you, except a genuine gardener at much higher rates.

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Re: What is a reasonable hourly rate for a l6 yr old who helps in the garden

#138186

Postby Bouleversee » May 10th, 2018, 9:44 pm

Thanks for your helpful comment, Wickham. We'll see. Wouldn't be the end of the world and I do more in half an hr. than he does in an hour and my bit doesn't need a second going over. If the worst comes to the worst, I'll co-opt other family members to do the slopey bits I can't do. I delivered the netting as promised; no thanks and no response re weekend work. Nuff said.

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Re: What is a reasonable hourly rate for a l6 yr old who helps in the garden

#138243

Postby JMN2 » May 11th, 2018, 8:40 am

What a little piece of sh1*, I would rather let my garden become a weedy jungle than hire this unreliable wally. Teach him about real life, commitment to one's work at hand and manners and let him go. There must be well-behaving youngsters still around,try finding one.

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Re: What is a reasonable hourly rate for a l6 yr old who helps in the garden

#138256

Postby brightncheerful » May 11th, 2018, 9:35 am

The op (with respect) is a soft touch and the 16 yr old knows it. I wouldn't waste time trying to educate youngster (or anyone else for that matter that is playing emotional games of childhood) as to the facts of life, but find someone else more diligent and conscientious.

If you cannot bear to part company with 16 yr old then let him do it for you. Stand your ground. Refuse to pay him any more. Either he'll get the message and mend his ways, or quit. If the former then you and he could talk about a pay increase in due course. If the latter then you and by the sound of it the garden too will be better off.


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