Tenants' rights after 17 years

[AleisterCrowley]

Mornin' all,
My landlord is making noises about selling the flat I've been in for the last 17 years
What rights do I have re notice, viewings, deposit etc?
The lady who just came round to measure up etc said I'd get two month's notice minimum
I've no reason to stay here really, but have a lot of junk to move (probably into self storage)

[UncleEbenezer]

Do you have no inclination to make them an offer? Check rightmove/zoopla not for asking prices of similar places nearby (I think typically half of places listed are at pie-in-the-sky prices and not serious about selling), but actual recent sales. Then chop off another 10% for convenience, saving fees, and avoiding the likelihood of being messed about.

Head over to housepricecrash.co.uk if you want suggestions for asserting your rights. You probably don't have many rights beyond two months notice in the prescribed form, though you might have an unexpectedly strong position if the landlord has taken a DIY attitude and cut out the agent or solicitor! Remember so long as it's legally your home, you don't have to put up with disruption to your life in it, so you can put your foot down over agents/viewings/etc if they're going to inconvenience you. And after 17 years[1] you can probably also be pretty assertive over your deposit: your coffee stains are immaterial unless the carpet is quite a lot newer than that.

[1] I've heard a five year figure as the point beyond which a court will tell the landlord to redecorate and disallow charging the tenant for dilapidations. Though I don't know: that might just be for extreme cases like student digs.

[AleisterCrowley]

Yes, they've asked if I'm interested in buying - but the bulk of my office time is over Reading way now (20 miles away) so it doesn't make sense to buy round here.
A lot of the furniture etc is 'past its best' to put it mildly. The sofa is collapsing, the mattress on the bed is on the way out, laminate is separating on kitchen units etc
It's going to need a complete refit to be rentable again, and I'm worried they're going to charge me out of my deposit. Unfair if they do, as i'm sure (mainly IKEA) stuff would depreciate to zero well before 17 years. More like 5 perhaps...
[edit - the carpet is knackered too, but it's > 17 years old and the place has never been redecorated]

[UncleEbenezer]

It's going to need a complete refit to be rentable again, and I'm worried they're going to charge me out of my deposit. Unfair if they do, as i'm sure (mainly IKEA) stuff would depreciate to zero well before 17 years. More like 5 perhaps...

After 17 years, any court will side with you over that kind of thing.

Unless the court in question is in their pocket!

[AleisterCrowley]

Well this is Slough.. where corruption is not unknown.
Hopefully limited to electoral fraud....

[Pipsmum]

Is it worth you buying it at a severe discount for them to have an easy sale, tarting it up yourself, and then you renting it out at a high rent to rent yourself elsewhere at a lower rent near reading? Thereby getting an income.

[AleisterCrowley]

Its an idea, but I'd never get round to doing it up, and I'm so lazy I'd end up staying here and eventually expiring here- which is my worst nightmare.
Prices round here are pretty high too - Crossrail effect, plus loads of jobs..

[modellingman]

Mornin' all,
My landlord is making noises about selling the flat I've been in for the last 17 years
What rights do I have re notice, viewings, deposit etc?
The lady who just came round to measure up etc said I'd get two month's notice minimum
I've no reason to stay here really, but have a lot of junk to move (probably into self storage)

Ironically, the length of your tenancy shifts the balance slightly in favour of your landlord.

Presumably, your tenancy is an assured shorthold tenancy. As it started before 6 April 2007, any deposit you paid your landlord at the start of the tenancy is not required to be statutorily protected in a deposit protection scheme. However, you are still entitled to two months notice under Section 21 of the 1988 Housing Act, though as your tenancy started before October 2015, the landlord has quite a few less hoops to jump through to issue a valid Section 21 notice. Whilst there are no fewer beartraps for landlords to get caught in when issuing Section 21 notices, it is still possible for a landlord to make a cockup, so it is always worth getting any notice you do receive checked (eg by Citizens Advice).

Your rights in respect of viewings will be governed by whatever is specified in your tenancy agreement. Some agreements specify that viewings may be undertaken in the last month or 4 weeks of the tenancy, others may be less restrictive.

Whilst your landlord must give you two months notice that s/he requires possession, if you do not voluntarily comply and move out then your landlord cannot evict you without first obtaining a court order. This will add at least a couple of months, longer if you continue to sit tight and the landlord needs to get court bailiffs to actually evict you (a landlord cannot lawfully evict a tenant any other way).

If you feel you need more time than two months to sort yourself out, then the above does give you a bit of leverage that you may be able to apply in discussions with your landlord. Your landlord probably won't want to go down the legal route if you can offer him/her an easier option. However landlords can be just as ignorant about landlord-tenant law as tenants so you may need to do a bit of landlord education as part of your discussions.

The introduction of deposit protection in 2007 represented a significant shift. The position is now that the deposit belongs to the tenant and it is for the landlord to agree and justify any deductions with the tenant. Deductions cannot be made for what is termed reasonable wear and tear - so a landlord cannot expect recompense just because sofas that have been sat on, mattresses slept on, etc are not in the same condition as at the start of the tenancy. Whilst you might not have the protections of a statutory deposit protection scheme, if it came to a claim by you against your landlord for return of your deposit, I would expect a court to be guided by these considerations. Again, this is something that you might want to throw into any discussion with your landlord.

[AleisterCrowley]

Thanks, that's useful
Ironically, the length of your tenancy shifts the balance slightly in favour of your landlord.
Let joy be unconfined!

To be honest, I don't really WANT to stay here much longer, but I'm dreading having to get organised and find a new place, and move/dispose of 17 years of 'valuable acquisitions' (junk) whilst trying to hold down a vaguely stressful job.
I'm not going to dig my heels in and intentionally make life difficult for letting agency/landlord (who I have never met) but I don't fancy being served notice the day before I go away for summer.
I think my deposit was £750, and if I can get £500 back i'll walk away whistling a happy tune.

[Lootman]

you are still entitled to two months notice under Section 21 of the 1988 Housing Act, though as your tenancy started before October 2015, the landlord has quite a few less hoops to jump through to issue a valid Section 21 notice. Whilst there are no fewer beartraps for landlords to get caught in when issuing Section 21 notices, it is still possible for a landlord to make a cockup, so it is always worth getting any notice you do receive checked (eg by Citizens Advice).

Your rights in respect of viewings will be governed by whatever is specified in your tenancy agreement. Some agreements specify that viewings may be undertaken in the last month or 4 weeks of the tenancy, others may be less restrictive.

Assuming this is an AST then I don't see why the LL needs to issue a Section 21 notice at all. Those are generally issued when a TT is in breach of contract in some way, i.e. it is an eviction for cause. Whereas in most cases it is simply a matter of the LL giving 2 months notice to quit - I did that many times over the years, for various reasons, and it was never a problem.

Now if the TT refuses to comply with the 2-month notice then that is another matter, and the notice will require enforcement. But I have never seen that happen and it doesn't sound like it is likely here either.

Regarding viewings by prospective buyers and their agents, I think a common sense approach is as follows. LL must give 24 hours written notice to TT of any viewing. Viewings should only be during normal business hours. Viewings should be accompanied by LL or LL's agent at all times. TT to keep unit in a reasonable state of cleanliness and tidiness, with access available to all parts of the unit.

Something like that. It's entirely possible to do this in a civil and respectful manner, and I feel sure most TTs would want to leave knowing they have a good reference from the LL, especially after 17 years although I suppose that alone indicates a good TT.

Incidentally the change of the law regarding deposits was one reason I quit the BTL business. That was before it was decided by this government that BTL LLs were devils.

[Pipsmum]

You don't need to worry about moving junk (within obvious cost reason). I used a company called Amber Moves (no affiliation) and they provided the boxes in advance, and boxed it all up for me with a smile. Scary, but very do-able. Then dejunk as you unpack whilst feeling all secure in a new flat. Then it's a more positive declutter as you won't want to put old mess in it.

Here are some darling cottages in Reading to start tickling your moving taste buds.
https://homes.trovit.co.uk/for-rent-cottage-reading

[AleisterCrowley]

Yep, might be the kick up the behind I need to get moving. It's just I could do without the hassle currently. Not sure if it's just me, but i find moving stressful rather than exciting...

[UncleEbenezer]

Assuming this is an AST then I don't see why the LL needs to issue a Section 21 notice at all. Those are generally issued when a TT is in breach of contract in some way, i.e. it is an eviction for cause. Whereas in most cases it is simply a matter of the LL giving 2 months notice to quit - I did that many times over the years, for various reasons, and it was never a problem.

This is just wrong. Section 21 is explicitly no-fault eviction. If you just booted people out of their homes many times, that'll have worked either because your notices were in fact valid Section 21 notices, or because the tenants just didn't make an issue of it (many tenants are still far too cowed to take on a landlord, regardless of the rights and wrongs).

Apart from Section 21, the only legal form of no-fault eviction is a special provision for cases where the house is the landlord's own home that has been let for a period - typically when an owner is on assignment somewhere distant for their work.

[Pipsmum]

If you can afford to, then cross over time wise. Rent the new one overlapping for a week/month before the end of the tenancy. Then you can slide over gently without being homeless. Then on a particularly stressy day, you can stay put in one end or the other. Grab a mate and make it more fun with some beer and an Indian meal. Moving is very stressy but can be fun and a bright re-start for a rut. Think of the no travel time in the mornings.

[UncleEbenezer]

Yep, might be the kick up the behind I need to get moving. It's just I could do without the hassle currently. Not sure if it's just me, but i find moving stressful rather than exciting...

That happened to me in 2005, when my then-landlady wanted to sell[1]. It was actually rather well-timed for me: my financial fortunes had just-about reached the point where I could afford somewhere a bit better, and it was indeed the kick up the behind I needed to make the move.

One tip: get looking now! Don't wait 'til you get the two months notice. House-hunting under time pressure is a bad idea, and you might find yourself taking somewhere less suitable than you'd wish.

[1] She offered me first refusal. I refused. Hindsight proved us both financially right, when the flat re-sold again in 2014 at a substantially lower price than she had got in 2005.

[AleisterCrowley]

I'm off to buy removal boxes this weekend I think...
The idea of zero travel, or a 10 minute local hop from Reading, appeals (office is two stops west of Reading central stn)

Do any charities do collections? I'm sure I saw a van once (may have been Red Cross??)

[AleisterCrowley]

If you can afford to, then cross over time wise. Rent the new one overlapping for a week/month before the end of the tenancy. Then you can slide over gently without being homeless. Then on a particularly stressy day, you can stay put in one end or the other. Grab a mate and make it more fun with some beer and an Indian meal. Moving is very stressy but can be fun and a bright re-start for a rut. Think of the no travel time in the mornings.

I did think about crossing over 'gradually', but with rents typically £600-£800pm it's an expensive option.
I'm looking at putting bulk of non-essentials in self storage in Reading which should make life easier, and will prompt a 'declutter'. I don't have transport so going to have to hire a 'man with a van'

[PinkDalek]

… Do any charities do collections? I'm sure I saw a van once (may have been Red Cross??)

Yes, plenty do, but it depends on the quality and nature of the items. You can, for instance, find your nearest Red Cross shop by entering your post code here:

https://www.redcross.org.uk/shop/donati ... rity-shops

Extract:

What you can donate to charity

Our charity shops sell a huge range of stock and we are always looking for:

clothes, shoes and boots
handbags, jewellery and belts
cookware, tableware and household goods
books, DVDs, CDs and vinyl
new, boxed electrical items, cameras and multimedia devices.

Make sure all your donations are clean and usable. Your donations should also be worth buying – if you wouldn’t buy it then we probably won’t be able to sell it.

[Lootman]

Assuming this is an AST then I don't see why the LL needs to issue a Section 21 notice at all. Those are generally issued when a TT is in breach of contract in some way, i.e. it is an eviction for cause. Whereas in most cases it is simply a matter of the LL giving 2 months notice to quit - I did that many times over the years, for various reasons, and it was never a problem.

This is just wrong. Section 21 is explicitly no-fault eviction. If you just booted people out of their homes many times, that'll have worked either because your notices were in fact valid Section 21 notices, or because the tenants just didn't make an issue of it (many tenants are still far too cowed to take on a landlord, regardless of the rights and wrongs).

Apart from Section 21, the only legal form of no-fault eviction is a special provision for cases where the house is the landlord's own home that has been let for a period - typically when an owner is on assignment somewhere distant for their work.

That is not my experience, although it is now a few years since I was a LL and a part of why I quit was all the new rules.

An AST is initially for 6 months. At the end either party is free not to renew. Unless both parties want to renew, the tenancy ends. Usually what I did was renew for another 6 months or let the tenancy roll over to a default month-to-month tenancy. In either case there may have been a rent increase, or not.

When I wished to recover vacant possession, I issued a notice letter. It was not knowingly in Section 21 form, but it covered the basics and I felt confident a court would regard it as valid. The tenants always complied with that because I gave the required notice period. A tenancy is never assured beyond either the duration of the AST or the statutory notice period, whichever is the longer. And most tenants accept that they are only temporarily borrowing my housing unit.

Now, if a tenant had refused to leave then we get into what you are talking about. But the vast majority of tenants do not want their credit record blotted in that way, nor want a bad reference. As long as you choose your tenants well, there are few problems. It is the government that is causing the problems - people left to themselves are pretty reasonable.

[AleisterCrowley]

… Do any charities do collections? I'm sure I saw a van once (may have been Red Cross??)

Yes, plenty do, but it depends on the quality and nature of the items. You can, for instance, find your nearest Red Cross shop by entering your post code here:

https://www.redcross.org.uk/shop/donati ... rity-shops

Looks like British Heart Foundation will pick up anything - time to start bagging up books