UCAS applications

[Shenstone]

My son today told us that his UCAS applications were for Masters degrees. We were shocked and a little concerned.
He's a clever lad but not super bright.
His school submitted his predicted grades which would mean he would likely get an offer from his favoured university IF he had applied for a bachelor's degree. The fact he's applied for a master's likely means he probably won't get an offer. He's normally a sensible lad but unless we don't understand the system it feels like he's dropped a bit of a clanger.
He's had one offer from a lesser university for a masters which is to get ABB. This is at the absolute top end of what he's predicted. In fact it's slightly higher.
So his best offer, his only offer is ABB which puts him under enormous pressure and gives him zero fallback option, no insurance choice.

Does anyone know if he can contact those universities to see if they'll make an offer for a bachelor's degree?
I suspect not as it is all done through UCAS but just thought on the off chance someone might know.

[chas49]

This page explains the options


https://www.ucas.com/undergraduate/afte ... pplication

Including:

Course, year, or point of entry
If you're happy with the university or college but you'd like to change the course details, you'll need to get in touch with the university or college rather than us.

Then if they agree to it, they'll let us know about the change.
If you've already had an offer from them, we'll update Track to show the new details.

Presumably these are 4 year undergraduate masters? Like MPhys, MMath etc.

[Shenstone]

Thank you so much.

Yes it's a 4 year undergraduate MEng.

[didds]

Is there a reason why he has applied for Masters and not Batchelors?

Funding over all four years?

Probably derail - Ive a bit of an issue over alleged "lesser" universities/degree courses. A degree is a degree is a degree at the end of the day.

It seems a way frankly to continue the pomposity that surrounds certain institutions?

didds

[mutantpoodle]

fao Didds
You would have a point if all exams in any given subject were the same throughout the country
and if marking those exams was done by independent people

unfortunately they are not

and these days with ever increasing pressure on uni s to climb the results tables...much appears in the press about 'boosting' results

hence an employer will inevitably look at the university itself!

[chas49]

Thank you so much.

Yes it's a 4 year undergraduate MEng.

Based solely on my son's experiences of MPhys at a Russell Group uni, they told him that he could switch to a BSc at any time in the first year as the course content was the same. If he later failed the MPhys, there were circumstances in which he would have got a BSc although without honours (as he wouldn't have done the 3rd year dissertation).

None of that came to pass fortunately. Now we just have to hope he's writing up his PhD thesis successfully.

Good luck, and if appropriate, come back and let us know what happened.

[didds]

fao Didds
You would have a point if all exams in any given subject were the same throughout the country
and if marking those exams was done by independent people

unfortunately they are not

and these days with ever increasing pressure on uni s to climb the results tables...much appears in the press about 'boosting' results

hence an employer will inevitably look at the university itself!

well that makes some sense of course. Except to say surely SOMEBODY somewhere overlooks the standards of degrees etc (OFSTED presumably). So a degree is still a degree is still a degree.

Or the universities should lose their charter.

Of course this is what you get when you introduce "league tables" rather than allow people to just educate students . Hey ho.

Tx

didds

[Loup321]

Universities sort of self-regulate their degrees. Each University department will have 3/4 external examiners who come from similar departments at other Universities and go through all the final year exam results before the degrees are awarded. Typically, a lecturer will sit as external examiner at another university for 2-3 years, and then go to a different external university for a bit. Not all Universities are the same, but at least a University should award a consistent level of achievment as it did the previous year with the same grade.

It is much easier to change from Masters to Bachelors once you're in, as previously posted. Perhaps his 6th form suggested he was borderline, and he should apply for the longer course. As far as I am aware, they are completely different course codes, so he has made the decision when completing his form.

Your best bet is to talk to the Universities, and see what the options are. If he misses the grades required by a little bit (BBC instead of AAB for instance) and the course is going into clearing, he might be able to get accepted onto the Bachelors course. Or as previously mentioned ask the Universities to change it at UCAS for him, if they are willing.

[pochisoldi]

If I was 18 today with the same ambitions I had when I started my A levels >30 years ago, I would apply for the MEng, on the basis that I would probably end up applying to do an MEng after my batchelors degree anyway to satisfy the educational requirements for Chartered Engineer status.

If I was worried about being stuck with a missed ABB offer for the MEng come clearing time, I reckon the institution may come back with an offer for the BEng course. My money would be on MEng and BEng students studying the same material together for the first two years anyway, with a possibility of BEng students with good results transferring to MEng at the end of 2nd year.

The university will almost certainly have the option of permitting a student to postpone graduation with BEng and then graduate with MEng a year later.

In any case, if following an engineering (or any other type of professional) career path, he needs to in the habit of noting down every single little bit of professional experience/development activity* take part in over and above addition to your degree studies, it will make it a lot easier to provide that you meet the requirements for CEng, and is also a good habit to get into when it comes to recording "CPD" (continual professional development) hours.
The easiest way of doing this is to register with the appropriate professional body (e.g. IMechE, IET, +other Engineering Council members) and use whatever online tool they provide, and update it regularly.

(* = Soft/people/managment skills/training/experience, as well as "hard" technology type stuff)

PochiSoldi, BEng MIET
(Should have gone through the CEng process years ago, but hey-ho...)

[mutantpoodle]

fao Didds

q Or the universities should lose their charter.uq

well the renaming of so many polytechnics a few years ago clearly shows that not all 'apples are in fact apples'
imo you cannot be a poly one day and equal uni to real unis the next

*****

q . If he misses the grades required by a little bit (BBC instead of AAB for instance) uq

that's not missing by a little bit that's missing three out of three!

[didds]

well the renaming of so many polytechnics a few years ago clearly shows that not all 'apples are in fact apples'
imo you cannot be a poly one day and equal uni to real unis the next

WADR to MP that's exactly what I meant by "It seems a way frankly to continue the pomposity that surrounds certain institutions?"

didds

[UncleEbenezer]

well the renaming of so many polytechnics a few years ago clearly shows that not all 'apples are in fact apples'
imo you cannot be a poly one day and equal uni to real unis the next

It was more than just polytechnics. At least some colleges of further education have been rebranded.

Like Tom Sharpe's Wilt and his colleagues.

Would it still be the "olympics" if fat middle-aged gits like me could amble round the track and get the same award?

(If any young person I cared about announced an intention to go to a UK non-Russell-Group institution, I'd be looking for some strong and particular motivation to justify a perverse-looking choice. Bearing in mind that some of them are indeed strong in particular niches).

[Weath]

If I was 18 today with the same ambitions I had when I started my A levels >30 years ago, I would apply for the MEng, on the basis that I would probably end up applying to do an MEng after my batchelors degree anyway to satisfy the educational requirements for Chartered Engineer status.

^ this is what reinforces this:

"It seems a way frankly to continue the pomposity that surrounds certain institutions?"

(If any young person I cared about announced an intention to go to a UK non-Russell-Group institution, I'd be looking for some strong and particular motivation to justify a perverse-looking choice. Bearing in mind that some of them are indeed strong in particular niches).

If I cared about a young person's intentions then I would be placing far more importance on their planned pathway route to gaining the specific requirements of professional status rather than the particular name/choice of the Uni (ex-Poly?) they get their first degree from. In the grand scheme of things in the real world; I suspect for the vast majority of everyday jobs it really doesn't matter if you graduate from one Uni over another other than in very specific (dare I say 'old school tie') professions.

Weath
BSc MSc (both from 'old polys' but leaders in their respective field) MCIEH

[didds]

(If any young person I cared about announced an intention to go to a UK non-Russell-Group institution, I'd be looking for some strong and particular motivation to justify a perverse-looking choice. Bearing in mind that some of them are indeed strong in particular niches).

"perverse" ? Really?

There may be multiple reasons for a university choice mot merely academic, or to benefit from some old boys network of elitisim.

Its an open market - if any one university's course is not providing what "the world" needs from its students then it really won;t continue to prosper - or more likely will be made to sort itself out. What knowledge could a chemistry degree from Pontypridd lack that a chemistry degree from Oxford not?

didds

[UncleEbenezer]

What knowledge could a chemistry degree from Pontypridd lack that a chemistry degree from Oxford not?

didds

I have no knowledge of chemistry at either of the above, so I can only speculate.

A likely distinction is whether the student is in an environment amongst first-rate scientists or mere teachers and research-wannabes. To a first order approximation, the difference between school and university.

[dspp]

UE,

I have recruited many engineers over the years, both in the UK and outside the UK, and of both Brits and non-Brits, and of all levels from 16yr old apprentices to 50+ year old chartered engineers and/or PhD types (and lecturers and profs !).

In the UK the institution, the course, and the grade all matter when trying to get the first post-graduation job. They may also matter again when he is at a significant step change point in his career, though generally less so (but not necessarily, it does depend).

There are poor courses at otherwise good institutions, and good courses at otherwise poor institutions. This is definitely so in engineering. There is no denying that the quality of the institution does matter. At one bluechip where I was in, your CV probably did not get read for more than 30-sec if you were not a Russell group engineer. As it happens I was not Russell group and I made it into that bluechip (and did well in it), but it certainly made for a pretty brutal filter if you were not Russell group. That is the reality. He should strive his utmost to get into Russell group.

There has been grade and course inflation in UK universities, very depressing to observe. Hence the MEng requirement for the CEng pathway. You should make sure your son checks that the particular MEng course is accredited by the particular engineering institution(s) that interest him/align with his preferred career path. So, for example, an MEng that is accreditted by the mechanicals (IMechE) would not also ordinarily be accredited by the 'electricals' (IEE/IET), or the civils or the chemicals etc. For some degrees they are accredited by multiple institutions on the surface, but when you dig deeper you will find that you need to take particular combinations of modules to achieve the corresponding institute accreditations. Attention to detail does matter in this, from the very beginning. The university ought to be guiding the students in this.

Switchability between BEng, BEng(Hons), and MEng is generally very good in the first few years. If he fails to get the A level grades for MEng he needs to get straight on the phone (and email) to the university to ask if he can drop to the BEng (Hons) course. If accepted, he can then make up the lost ground by getting good first & second year grades and switching 'up' to the MEng course at the appropriate point. If he doesn't get the grades in the first & second year he will get switched down in any case !

Something that almost all the UK candidates get utterly wrong is their attitude to summer placements. The most important thing your son can do is to get summer placements, and certainly from the second year on they should be in engineering employment. It doesn't matter if in the first year he has to go to offer to work for free somewhere that does engineering, dossing on a floor if necessary and working in MacDs to pay his way. He must do that. I have lost track of the countless British graduates I have put a line through, in favour of their foreign counterparts. The difference was that the Brits had a jolly each summer, whereas the foreign ones had done serious work. It showed at interview, and it showed in the hiring decisions. If he wants to do a jolly, then he needs to cram that into half terms and Easter and Xmas vacs.

Employment opportunities in engineering in the UK are tough, and getting tougher. If Brexit happens the whole area may go subcritical, certainly large parts of it already have. Again that is the reality. I have had a fantastic career courtesy of my engineering, but I would hesitate to recommend it to a UK national without a second passport in a post-Brexit world.

Hope that helps.

regards, dspp

[didds]

so...

1) why do students bother with non RG engineering degrees ?
2) why do the non RG universities bother offering degrees in engineering subjects ?

when the entire industry seems to want to simply reject them?

Somebody somewhere must be employing them - or do they all become maths teachers?

[dspp]

1. It is a con.
2. Many of them don't get employed.
3. Some of them do become maths and science teachers, i.e. the ones who weren't good enough to do a 'real' engineering degree get to teach the next generation.
4. The university and all the lecturers laugh all the way to the bank. They didn't have to put on a 'proper' engineering course; they still got the students to pay full whack.
5. And you the taxpayer get to fund it as you are the garantor on the student loans scheme.
6. And the bit of UK industry that is still left, gets even more pissed off at the poor quality of the British educational output. (that's me by the way, interviewing this lot in British industry, sigh)

- dspp

[Shenstone]

Is there a reason why he has applied for Masters and not Batchelors?

Funding over all four years?

Probably derail - Ive a bit of an issue over alleged "lesser" universities/degree courses. A degree is a degree is a degree at the end of the day.

It seems a way frankly to continue the pomposity that surrounds certain institutions?

didds

Because said he wanted to do a Masters.
I asked him if he'd taken any advice over this. He said "no". That set the alarm bells ringing.
He's normally down to earth but seems to have got a bit carried away.
So he's gone against all we were told by the uni's. Get on a degree, then you can switch to an MEng if your grades are good enough.

[Shenstone]

Thanks all for your replies.
He's now called some of the universities and asked if he can change his application to a BEng.
They have said yes and they told him to just update it on UCAS and it'll come through the next day.

He doesn't want to talk too much about it. I think there's a bit of hurt pride but I still can't believe he did it.
It makes no sense because of what we were told on our open day visits.

He desperately wants to go to Cardiff which is ABB for a BEng in Civil Engineering.
His school have submitted his predicted grades as ABB.
Then he goes and applies for the MEng which is AAB.
I don't want to sound like I don't have confidence in my son but AAB is unrealistic. ABB is a massive stretch.

This last week was his mock exams and I saw how much it affected him with the pressure.
MEng grades requirements put even more pressure on him and even a mediocre university wants ABB for a MEng.

Anyway, fingers crossed this gets sorted and he hasn't paid the price of wanting to run before he can walk.

We are going to try to persuade him to speak to the Uni that offered him the MEng at ABB to see if they will change the offer to a BEng.
He needs a fallback option and at the moment he has none.