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Extinction Rebellion Demands

Straight answers to factual questions
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EssDeeAitch
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Extinction Rebellion Demands

#256901

Postby EssDeeAitch » October 10th, 2019, 10:18 am

The three main aims of XR are (according to BBC website)

1 - The government must declare a climate "emergency"
thats easy, we are all used to meaningless platitudes from those in authority so an emergency can be declared I suppose
2 - The UK must legally commit to reducing carbon emissions to net zero by 2025
again, easy to do and just as easy to not comply
3 - A citizens' assembly must be formed to "oversee the changes"
this is the bit, what changes exactly do they want? No steel/plastics/cement/fabric manufacture (and so on)? No house building? No running of transport systems (electric vehicles have a carbon footprint)?

Do they have a plan as to how things must change or what the cost of such changes are? I would also like to live in a zero carbon emission society, who wouldn't? But can it be done? Can it be done by 2025 (no chance IMHO)?

Are they just protesters, or do they have proposals for specific actions?

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Re: Extinction Rebellion Demands

#256903

Postby Alaric » October 10th, 2019, 10:40 am

EssDeeAitch wrote:what changes exactly do they want? No steel/plastics/cement/fabric manufacture (and so on)? No house building? No running of transport systems (electric vehicles have a carbon footprint)?


Would they be prepared to advocate the immediate abandonment of gas central heating or even any kind of heating if not powered by renewable energy? Cooking as well.

UncleEbenezer
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Re: Extinction Rebellion Demands

#256904

Postby UncleEbenezer » October 10th, 2019, 10:43 am

It's a lot of people uniting behind a core of a common idea. I expect the expectation is that in practical terms they're an input to the national debate and put pressure on TPTB to move in the right direction, in which goal I wish them success.

Of course once you get into detail you would find who is customarily there: a wide range of different specific ideas, ranging from the very reasonable to the swivel-eyed loon. And if we take brexit as a precedent for a core of an idea shared by many, that would suggest that if they were given power, the loons would come to dominate and dismiss reasonable proposals.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion Demands

#256905

Postby UncleEbenezer » October 10th, 2019, 10:45 am

Alaric wrote:Would they be prepared to advocate the immediate abandonment of gas central heating or even any kind of heating if not powered by renewable energy? Cooking as well.

Have you stopped beating your wife?

Hmmm. I need to reformulate that with a plural "you" referring to a disparate group of people with widely differing nuances to their replies, if I'm to represent your contribution more accurately.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion Demands

#256919

Postby didds » October 10th, 2019, 11:38 am

EssDeeAitch wrote:do they have proposals for specific actions?


good questions.

Does the government (or govts in waiting) have anything more concrete either? (I couldn't find anything with a very quick google)

didds

EssDeeAitch
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Re: Extinction Rebellion Demands

#256926

Postby EssDeeAitch » October 10th, 2019, 12:12 pm

didds wrote:
EssDeeAitch wrote:do they have proposals for specific actions?


good questions.

Does the government (or govts in waiting) have anything more concrete either? (I couldn't find anything with a very quick google)

didds


Quite.

I cannot imagine there are many people who do not think the zero carbon is a good idea, but there do not seem to be many people with ideas of how to achieve it. However........

I listened to an interesting podcast hosted by Sam Harris (Making Sense podcast #170) where he interviewed Andrew McAfee who has recently written a book, "More From Less" which propounds "the modern uncoupling of our prosperity from resource consumption". One example of reducing carbon emissions was that of a 1990 advert for Radio Shack where 15 products were promoted, 13 were now incorporated in a smart phone. As technology advances resource requirement reduces.

Very interesting stuff and a good advert for the book which I will now buy and read. Thereby adding to my carbon footprint :shock:

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Re: Extinction Rebellion Demands

#256955

Postby didds » October 10th, 2019, 2:05 pm

EssDeeAitch wrote:[
Very interesting stuff and a good advert for the book which I will now buy and read. Thereby adding to my carbon footprint :shock:



ebook?

though that then requires power to keep your device charged etc ...

didds

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Re: Extinction Rebellion Demands

#256968

Postby supremetwo » October 10th, 2019, 4:14 pm

EssDeeAitch wrote:The three main aims of XR are (according to BBC website)

1 - The government must declare a climate "emergency"
thats easy, we are all used to meaningless platitudes from those in authority so an emergency can be declared I suppose
2 - The UK must legally commit to reducing carbon emissions to net zero by 2025
again, easy to do and just as easy to not comply
3 - A citizens' assembly must be formed to "oversee the changes"
this is the bit, what changes exactly do they want? No steel/plastics/cement/fabric manufacture (and so on)? No house building? No running of transport systems (electric vehicles have a carbon footprint)?

Do they have a plan as to how things must change or what the cost of such changes are? I would also like to live in a zero carbon emission society, who wouldn't? But can it be done? Can it be done by 2025 (no chance IMHO)?

Are they just protesters, or do they have proposals for specific actions?


Andrew Neil pulled apart their spokesperson on the scientific basis of their claims last night - 19.30 onwards
Available for 29 days:-
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m ... 1-09102019

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Re: Extinction Rebellion Demands

#256972

Postby Arborbridge » October 10th, 2019, 4:37 pm

supremetwo wrote:
EssDeeAitch wrote:The three main aims of XR are (according to BBC website)

1 - The government must declare a climate "emergency"
thats easy, we are all used to meaningless platitudes from those in authority so an emergency can be declared I suppose
2 - The UK must legally commit to reducing carbon emissions to net zero by 2025
again, easy to do and just as easy to not comply
3 - A citizens' assembly must be formed to "oversee the changes"
this is the bit, what changes exactly do they want? No steel/plastics/cement/fabric manufacture (and so on)? No house building? No running of transport systems (electric vehicles have a carbon footprint)?

Do they have a plan as to how things must change or what the cost of such changes are? I would also like to live in a zero carbon emission society, who wouldn't? But can it be done? Can it be done by 2025 (no chance IMHO)?

Are they just protesters, or do they have proposals for specific actions?


Andrew Neil pulled apart their spokesperson on the scientific basis of their claims last night - 19.30 onwards
Available for 29 days:-
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m ... 1-09102019


Extinction rebellion have good points but they are totally unrealistic. The only way this will be solved is through some outside force or event which the human race cannot circumvent. Our survival imperative means that we are too good at finding solutions where natural enemies knock us back. Thus, the absurd population growth and rape of the rest of nature.

Arb.

EssDeeAitch
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Re: Extinction Rebellion Demands

#256974

Postby EssDeeAitch » October 10th, 2019, 4:42 pm

supremetwo wrote:
EssDeeAitch wrote:The three main aims of XR are (according to BBC website)

1 - The government must declare a climate "emergency"
thats easy, we are all used to meaningless platitudes from those in authority so an emergency can be declared I suppose
2 - The UK must legally commit to reducing carbon emissions to net zero by 2025
again, easy to do and just as easy to not comply
3 - A citizens' assembly must be formed to "oversee the changes"
this is the bit, what changes exactly do they want? No steel/plastics/cement/fabric manufacture (and so on)? No house building? No running of transport systems (electric vehicles have a carbon footprint)?

Do they have a plan as to how things must change or what the cost of such changes are? I would also like to live in a zero carbon emission society, who wouldn't? But can it be done? Can it be done by 2025 (no chance IMHO)?

Are they just protesters, or do they have proposals for specific actions?


Andrew Neil pulled apart their spokesperson on the scientific basis of their claims last night - 19.30 onwards
Available for 29 days:-
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/m ... 1-09102019


Thanks for the link. A very telling interview. XR do not come out of it well at all.

Sussexlad
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Re: Extinction Rebellion Demands

#257019

Postby Sussexlad » October 10th, 2019, 8:24 pm

anon155742 wrote:I am glad we agree. The native UK population has been below replacement fertility rates since the late 70s, early 80s. To use your term, 'johnny foreigner' has been the biggest contributor to our carbon emissions. If they were not here then our progressively decreasing population would have had a smaller carbon footprint than it does now.


Even worse, we provide the money for those who would be unable to finance this growth themselves. By swapping from responsibility to entitlement, we have completely changed the incentives and one serious failure of democracy, where MPs require as widespread support as possible, they are highly reluctant to condemn any abuse or change the system.

The other elephant in the room of course, is the Third World totally legitimately wanting the same standard of living as the developed world. Population is the key but no one dare talk about it.

Sussexlad

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Re: Extinction Rebellion Demands

#257029

Postby scrumpyjack » October 10th, 2019, 9:38 pm

Yes Andrew Neil brilliantly and very politely took apart that stupid XR representative.

What XR seem to overlook is that relatively the UK are the good guys in terms of carbon dioxide emissions, and anyway what happens in our tiny island will make no difference in the planetary scheme of things. They should be having these demos in China and India etc, or nearer home Germany and Poland – Germany is one of the worst polluters with its coal burning and Poland is huge on coal also. It would be far better for them to push for an immediate ban on coal burning in the EU and switch to gas which is far less polluting whilst the transition to green alternatives takes place.

The trouble is their platform is entirely emotional rather than based on objective logic and because of that they are doing a huge disservice to their cause.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion Demands

#257035

Postby tjh290633 » October 10th, 2019, 10:25 pm

Bminusrob wrote:I thought it was interesting that John Humphreys is quoted as saying that he refused to interview the silly Swedish schoolgirl, as in his opinion, she was "being used".

Never a truer word uttered. She has been manipulated and used as a puppet.

Hysteria in school children has been generated.

TJH

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Re: Extinction Rebellion Demands

#257054

Postby redsturgeon » October 11th, 2019, 7:18 am

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Re: Extinction Rebellion Demands

#257106

Postby Julian » October 11th, 2019, 11:23 am

A good question. I did a bit of Googling last night after someone in a discussion somewhere on TV (I forget where) mentioned that, although zero-carbon 2025 was an aspiration that was considered laudable my many people in the general public, once those same people began to understand the extent of the changes to their current lifestyles that it would involve people might become less supportive of that 2025 net-zero emissions goal. That got me thinking about just how radical those effects on lifestyle would be were 2025 carbon-zero to be achieved.

Given the prominence that the issue has in the media at the moment I would love to see some more formal "fact check" pieces similar to those often seen for Brexit claims or Trump pronouncements. In the absence of that I have no way of judging whether what I'm about to link to is carefully researched and reasonable expert speculation or whether it is a highly biased, skewed and inaccurate piece (or where it might lie between those two extremes) but for what it's worth this is an article that I found last night that seems to at least touch on and to some extent address the questions that were in my mind following that comment in last night's TV interview...

https://newint.org/features/2018/12/17/ ... -zero-2025

In particular the article mentions energy issues such that, with the claimed (by the article) need to decommission all fossil fuel power stations and with no time to replace them with nuclear, the scale of building renewable energy capacity would be monumental. Apparently Zero Carbon Britain (whoever they are) "suggests building 130,000 100-metre tall wind turbines to power the UK (in an area over twice the size of Wales)" although presumably many of those 130,000 units would be off shore.

As I say, I have no ability to judge the credibility of the article but it at least discussed what seemed to me to be some of the most relevant considerations.

- Julian

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Re: Extinction Rebellion Demands

#257218

Postby BusyBumbleBee » October 11th, 2019, 6:03 pm

EssDeeAitch wrote:The three main aims of XR are (according to BBC website):

1 - The government must declare a "climate emergency"
2 - The UK must legally commit to reducing carbon emissions to net zero by 2025
3 - A citizens' assembly must be formed to "oversee the changes"

this is the bit, what changes exactly do they want? No steel/plastics/cement/fabric manufacture (and so on)? No house building? No running of transport systems (electric vehicles have a carbon footprint)?

Do they have a plan as to how things must change or what the cost of such changes are? I would also like to live in a zero carbon emission society, who wouldn't? But can it be done? Can it be done by 2025 (no chance IMHO)?

Are they just protesters, or do they have proposals for specific actions?

To ask for net zero by 2025 is good but just about impossible to achieve - a citizens' assembly would be a waste of space and a declaration of a climate emergency is just ticking a box. So what do they want? - they want us to take it seriously cos it is a very real problem and they are setting about it in the way that young people have done for centuries - they demonstrate.so we take notice of them and the problem which is actually much, much worse than even they are saying.

They are not asking us to give up anything; only to offset our gross carbon emissions to a NET ZERO by off-setting our emissions with trees, carbon sequestration etc.

Like a lot of young people they are passionate but inarticulate so their spokesperson was minced up by a veteran, crusty BBC interviewer - much to my disgust.

At the risk of going off topic I would point out that my definition of Net Zero differs from theirs in this way:

We have shifted our carbon heavy output industries to China and other countries and now we are blaming them for producing all that CO2. If you read the Climate Change Committee's published methodology for calculating our own emissions you will see that they took the conscious decision to omit all reference to air and sea travel and freight and, worst of all, they decided not to account for the CO2 produced in producing all the goods we import - but used to make here. If we took all that into account our emissions would by nearly 70% higher than the published UK figure.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion Demands

#257266

Postby 88V8 » October 11th, 2019, 11:21 pm

Yes, what are they demanding... they're too wooly.

I support them with some cash, but they like many people shy away from the key, indeed the only relevant point, which as has been observed is population.
Well, I dare talk about it.
I regularly write to the BBC on the topic. Every time they mention 'the housing crisis' I write and point out there is no such thing, there are simply too many people, but the Beeb don't want to know. Doubtless they are aware where the main population growth is coming from, and seeing as the Beeb won't say Boo! to the third world, the topic is off limits.

I admire ER's passion, and I support their right to cause disruption but it is all quite misdirected and will peter out.

V8

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Re: Extinction Rebellion Demands

#257276

Postby gbjbaanb » October 12th, 2019, 3:43 am

David Attenborough has been vocal about the overpopulation problem, and the BBC has issued the odd mention of it (in general "world problem" terms) but you'll never get them to admit it in terms of any agenda they want to set concerning the UK.

Nobody decided to shift our heavy carbon emissions to China for that reason, they did for price - and China willingly took our industries (and jobs) away, so its their problem now, not ours. Now if XR would go and campaign in Beijing and Delhi, I'd be much happier about their principles, but trying to make the UK less carbon emitting when we've alreay done so much and are doing lots more is only going to be counterproductive.

The graphs for Chinese emissions since 2000 are unbelievable.

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Re: Extinction Rebellion Demands

#257286

Postby JohnB » October 12th, 2019, 7:26 am

If we think in terms of just steel: Those wind turbines use 164 tons each, so 21m overall. Every car would need to be replaced, say 10m tons, every commercial vehicle, 10m tons, and you'd need to electrify the rest of the rail network, say 2m tons for gantries or battery trains. 2m tons for heat pumps. So 45m tons, compared with UK steel consumption of 10m tons. So we'd need to ramp that, as you were ramping all the other industries. I don't think the young understand that you can't replace infrastructure with lifetimes ranging from 15 years for cars to 40 years for power plants so quickly. If the key technology in your life is a mobile phone, its hard to understand that other things change more slowly.

It might be possible if we went on a war footing, with a directed economy, but are the protesters calling for that?

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Re: Extinction Rebellion Demands

#257289

Postby johnhemming » October 12th, 2019, 8:02 am

JohnB wrote:It might be possible if we went on a war footing, with a directed economy, but are the protesters calling for that?

In a sense they are.

I personally, as someone who has been a member of FoE for decades and for a while a supporter of Greenpeace, think they are over egging the pudding. If the ice on Greenland melts (which is the extreme outcome) the human race will not be made extinct.

They are exaggerating the effects of climate change because that makes people more concerned, but it is a lie.

I stopped being supportive of Greenpeace when they moved away from scientific analysis and proposed solutions which were less environmentally friendly for superficial reasons.

The underlying principle, however, is that we do need a sustainable society/economy.

I don't think ER help the debate as they are too disruptive (which makes people focus on the disruption) and they misrepresent the arguments.


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