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NHS Patient Access vs new NHS App?

The home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
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This is the home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
stevensfo
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Re: NHS Patient Access vs new NHS App?

#408075

Postby stevensfo » April 29th, 2021, 2:49 pm

AF62 wrote:
Lootman wrote:
AF62 wrote:Most likely people who don't know how their phones work!

If you are using an Apple phone then airline apps will generally allow you to save a copy of the boarding pass to Apple wallet, and if you made the booking, then a copy of the boarding passes for everyone on that booking. Apple wallet doesn't need any connectivity to work and can be found with a simple 'swipe up' from the bottom of the screen - and voila, a display of all your boarding cards, loyalty cards, credit cards for you to choose what you want to use.

It must have been years since I actually bothered to print out the paperwork.

There are other things that can go wrong with a phone even if no signal is needed. It can run out of charge. It can freeze. It can malfunction.


Phones running out of charge - not these days; they enter a low power mode to prevent this type of thing. As for freezing or malfunctioning, then you could equally say for paper documents that they could get wet, get torn, spontaneously combust, etc.

Lootman wrote:There is also the possibility that some countries may insist on seeing original paper documents.


The sort of country that has the type of border officials who ignore the rules and make life difficult for travellers (probably in the hope of a backhander) are not the sort of countries I generally travel to.


What a strange comment.

I came to Italy two days ago and, as usual, it was obvious that the overworked people on the desks far prefer to have a piece of paper in their hands than having to squint at a small screen wobbling about in front of their eyes.

That's even before we get onto the elderly people who have only just mastered laptops, yet alone smartphones! ;)

It is so obvious when you're in the queue that a sheet of paper is far preferable to wasting time with a mobile phone.

I was through both security checks (Covid & passport) extremely quickly, by offering whatever sheets of paper they wanted, and moving on very quickly. From the number of people exiting the airport, I had the impression that all the young italians with their telofonini were taking a long time to exit and just annoying the guards.

Steve

PS The only time we gave a backhander was in Tanzania, though it was just a 'gift' of about 5 dollars to make our transit a little easier. I have never encountered anything similar, even in other third world airports.... like Luton! :lol:

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Re: NHS Patient Access vs new NHS App?

#408102

Postby production100 » April 29th, 2021, 4:00 pm

Using the NHS app for vaccination records to show you have been vaccinated also means that they can see all of your medical records. I believe this is an invasi1on of privacy too far to be acceptable.

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Re: NHS Patient Access vs new NHS App?

#408103

Postby UncleEbenezer » April 29th, 2021, 4:05 pm

Lootman wrote:There are other things that can go wrong with a phone even if no signal is needed. It can run out of charge. It can freeze. It can malfunction.

So why would anyone not print off the documents just in case? And then photograph the document on your phone as well?
.

Paper documents can suffer mishaps too. You're arguing for redundancy there. I have a faint recollection - I think may have been Eurostar - when their instructions told me to print out my ticket. By the time I got there, it wasn't recognisable to the scanners on the gates, so a member of staff had to come and scan it. Buying a regular train ticket the inspector could just scan on my phone - in circumstances where I had no chance of printing it - was a lot less hassle.

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Re: NHS Patient Access vs new NHS App?

#408106

Postby UncleEbenezer » April 29th, 2021, 4:11 pm

production100 wrote:Using the NHS app for vaccination records to show you have been vaccinated also means that they can see all of your medical records. I believe this is an invasi1on of privacy too far to be acceptable.

It is entirely possible for an app to verify an assertion (like "I've been vaccinated", or "I'm over 18", or just "I'm Uncle E") without giving anything away beyond what you've asked it. The assertion can be verified by one or more cryptographic signature - e.g. that of an NHS doctor or official.

I've no idea whether the NHS app works like that. If it does, someone is to be commended for persuading TPTB to empower individuals and not let it become an instrument of universal surveillence.

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Re: NHS Patient Access vs new NHS App?

#408174

Postby XFool » April 29th, 2021, 8:19 pm

production100 wrote:Using the NHS app for vaccination records to show you have been vaccinated also means that they can see all of your medical records. I believe this is an invasi1on of privacy too far to be acceptable.

Don't know about the NHS App but online (via EMIS) the COVID vaccinations are listed under 'Immunisations'. I would imagine the NHS App could be tweaked where needed to just present dated or recognised entries under that filing and no other.

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Re: NHS Patient Access vs new NHS App?

#408263

Postby dionaeamuscipula » April 30th, 2021, 9:26 am

stevensfo wrote:
Anyone downloaded the app? Is it useful? Any bugs?


Being Welsh, Scottish or Irish renders the app unusable.

DM

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Re: NHS Patient Access vs new NHS App?

#408292

Postby production100 » April 30th, 2021, 10:58 am

The NHS app in England, at least for my doctors surgery, shows the vaccinations under the health record 'medicines' section. This is of course where details of any other medicines given are shown and at that point the user has access to any health records that are available.

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Re: NHS Patient Access vs new NHS App?

#408341

Postby XFool » April 30th, 2021, 3:29 pm

production100 wrote:The NHS app in England, at least for my doctors surgery, shows the vaccinations under the health record 'medicines' section. This is of course where details of any other medicines given are shown and at that point the user has access to any health records that are available.

The "user" possibly. But surely a specialised App function could access only what is required (in my case Medications/Immunisations) and signal GO/NO GO to whoever?

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Re: NHS Patient Access vs new NHS App?

#408353

Postby Lootman » April 30th, 2021, 4:06 pm

XFool wrote:
production100 wrote:The NHS app in England, at least for my doctors surgery, shows the vaccinations under the health record 'medicines' section. This is of course where details of any other medicines given are shown and at that point the user has access to any health records that are available.

The "user" possibly. But surely a specialised App function could access only what is required (in my case Medications/Immunisations) and signal GO/NO GO to whoever?

It is obviously theoretically possible, but whether it actually does is another matter.

More generally whilst there are benefits to having a monolithic and centralised healthcare system, there is always the fear that your records might become available to third parties. If I had a very "delicate" healthcare issue that I wanted to be certain would never come to light, I might consider going outside the NHS, or even outside the country, so that my secret will always be 100% safe from external scrutiny. When I do seek care from the NHS I always have this feeling that the process becomes outside of my control.

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Re: NHS Patient Access vs new NHS App?

#408355

Postby XFool » April 30th, 2021, 4:13 pm

Lootman wrote:
XFool wrote:
production100 wrote:The NHS app in England, at least for my doctors surgery, shows the vaccinations under the health record 'medicines' section. This is of course where details of any other medicines given are shown and at that point the user has access to any health records that are available.

The "user" possibly. But surely a specialised App function could access only what is required (in my case Medications/Immunisations) and signal GO/NO GO to whoever?

It is obviously theoretically possible, but whether it actually does is another matter.

If I had a very "delicate" healthcare issue that I wanted to be certain would never come to light, I might consider going outside the NHS, or even outside the country, so that my secret will always be 100% safe from external scrutiny.

I'm not sure I know where your certainty on this matter comes from. Or is warranted.

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Re: NHS Patient Access vs new NHS App?

#408358

Postby Lootman » April 30th, 2021, 4:17 pm

XFool wrote:
Lootman wrote:
XFool wrote:The "user" possibly. But surely a specialised App function could access only what is required (in my case Medications/Immunisations) and signal GO/NO GO to whoever?

It is obviously theoretically possible, but whether it actually does is another matter.

If I had a very "delicate" healthcare issue that I wanted to be certain would never come to light, I might consider going outside the NHS, or even outside the country, so that my secret will always be 100% safe from external scrutiny.

I'm not sure I know where your certainty on this matter comes from. Or is warranted.

I never said I was certain about the matter. I was describing what someone might do IF they were certain they did not want others knowing.

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Re: NHS Patient Access vs new NHS App?

#408798

Postby csearle » May 2nd, 2021, 5:43 pm

production100 wrote:Using the NHS app for vaccination records to show you have been vaccinated also means that they can see all of your medical records. I believe this is an invasi1on of privacy too far to be acceptable.
I suppose one has to balance the possible invasion of privacy with the benefits to be had from simply showing them that you've been vaccinated.

I'd probably say, [expletive deleted] it, let me disembark and I don't care what you end up knowing about me. c.

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Re: NHS Patient Access vs new NHS App?

#408982

Postby stevensfo » May 3rd, 2021, 1:16 pm

csearle wrote:
production100 wrote:Using the NHS app for vaccination records to show you have been vaccinated also means that they can see all of your medical records. I believe this is an invasi1on of privacy too far to be acceptable.
I suppose one has to balance the possible invasion of privacy with the benefits to be had from simply showing them that you've been vaccinated.

I'd probably say, womble it, let me disembark and I don't care what you end up knowing about me. c.


I don't know if it was TLF or another forum, but I'm sure there were concerns over Insurance companies asking if you're ever had a DNA test, and how you should answer if you've done one of these Family Tree tests that are advertised. i.e You're 10% Eskimo, 20% Norwegian, 70% Alien etc. ;) Will your answer determine their quote, and will that info be passed on/sold....etc.

Maybe it's me, but I have the impression that the more we hear the droning about 'Privacy', the less privacy we really have.

Steve

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Re: NHS Patient Access vs new NHS App?

#409481

Postby stevensfo » May 5th, 2021, 9:16 am

Just to make things more interesting, I got an email from Patient Access:

Nearly 16 million people in the UK are now fully vaccinated against coronavirus and anyone over 40 is now eligible for their first vaccine (as well as anyone in at-risk groups). As the COVID-19 vaccination programme expands and restrictions continue to ease across the country, the government has said that proving your COVID-19 status is ‘likely’ to become part of everyday life, though plans for a COVID passport are not yet set in stone.
That's why I'm excited to announce that you will now be able to see your vaccine record on your Patient Access home screen. As long as your account is linked to your GP practice and they've given you the appropriate access to your medical records, any COVID-19 vaccinations will be shown in a single place. With the Patient Access app, you'll be able to show your vaccination status, wherever you are.


So two apps for the same thing? Patient Access app and NHS app?

The NHS underfunded? They seem to have plenty of IT staff.

Steve

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Re: NHS Patient Access vs new NHS App?

#409483

Postby AF62 » May 5th, 2021, 9:24 am

stevensfo wrote:Just to make things more interesting, I got an email from Patient Access:

Nearly 16 million people in the UK are now fully vaccinated against coronavirus and anyone over 40 is now eligible for their first vaccine (as well as anyone in at-risk groups). As the COVID-19 vaccination programme expands and restrictions continue to ease across the country, the government has said that proving your COVID-19 status is ‘likely’ to become part of everyday life, though plans for a COVID passport are not yet set in stone.
That's why I'm excited to announce that you will now be able to see your vaccine record on your Patient Access home screen. As long as your account is linked to your GP practice and they've given you the appropriate access to your medical records, any COVID-19 vaccinations will be shown in a single place. With the Patient Access app, you'll be able to show your vaccination status, wherever you are.


So two apps for the same thing? Patient Access app and NHS app?

The NHS underfunded? They seem to have plenty of IT staff.

Steve


Patient Access is run by a private company, Patient Platform Limited - https://patient.info/about-us and likewise the third app, TPP SystmOnline which is again a private company, The Phoenix Partnership - https://www.tpp-uk.com/about

Perhaps the question that needs to asked is how companies like Patient Platform Limited and The Phoenix Partnership are making money from your health data which the NHS is allowing access to.

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Re: NHS Patient Access vs new NHS App?

#409511

Postby XFool » May 5th, 2021, 10:56 am

stevensfo wrote:Just to make things more interesting, I got an email from Patient Access:

Nearly 16 million people in the UK are now fully vaccinated against coronavirus and anyone over 40 is now eligible for their first vaccine (as well as anyone in at-risk groups). As the COVID-19 vaccination programme expands and restrictions continue to ease across the country, the government has said that proving your COVID-19 status is ‘likely’ to become part of everyday life, though plans for a COVID passport are not yet set in stone.
That's why I'm excited to announce that you will now be able to see your vaccine record on your Patient Access home screen. As long as your account is linked to your GP practice and they've given you the appropriate access to your medical records, any COVID-19 vaccinations will be shown in a single place. With the Patient Access app, you'll be able to show your vaccination status, wherever you are.

No email for me, so far. I just checked Patient Access online and found my home page wasn't displaying correctly. Got it to work after several reloads, never happened before. COVID vaccination not showing on my home page as yet. Possibly signs of work in progress?

Looked at release notes for latest website version in online help and saw notice of plan to show vaccine status in home page, for suitable users.

So, this is clearly one route - via the NHS App on phones - to some kind of 'vaccine passport'.

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Re: NHS Patient Access vs new NHS App?

#409548

Postby Julian » May 5th, 2021, 1:37 pm

XFool wrote:
stevensfo wrote:Just to make things more interesting, I got an email from Patient Access:

Nearly 16 million people in the UK are now fully vaccinated against coronavirus and anyone over 40 is now eligible for their first vaccine (as well as anyone in at-risk groups). As the COVID-19 vaccination programme expands and restrictions continue to ease across the country, the government has said that proving your COVID-19 status is ‘likely’ to become part of everyday life, though plans for a COVID passport are not yet set in stone.
That's why I'm excited to announce that you will now be able to see your vaccine record on your Patient Access home screen. As long as your account is linked to your GP practice and they've given you the appropriate access to your medical records, any COVID-19 vaccinations will be shown in a single place. With the Patient Access app, you'll be able to show your vaccination status, wherever you are.

No email for me, so far. I just checked Patient Access online and found my home page wasn't displaying correctly. Got it to work after several reloads, never happened before. COVID vaccination not showing on my home page as yet. Possibly signs of work in progress?

Looked at release notes for latest website version in online help and saw notice of plan to show vaccine status in home page, for suitable users.

So, this is clearly one route - via the NHS App on phones - to some kind of 'vaccine passport'.

One advantage of smart phones is the solid infrastructure with both Android and iOS for delivering app updates. I agree with your earlier comment regarding the potential to modify the app so that a user doesn't need to go into their medications list to show their vaccines. If the NHS app is the route chosen for people wanting to use their smartphone then I suspect we might well see an app update that has that functionality added, maybe by adding a "Display Vaccine Status" option on the main menu alongside the current "View your messages", "Linked profiles", View your GP health record" and "Order a repeat prescription" options. That way a user can generate a page that displays only their vaccine status without needing to go into their health records and showing their list of medications which I think most people would agree would be sub-optimal wrt privacy.

I wonder if any extra validation would be added to the status display page or if it would be felt sufficient that the person asking for the status can simply watch the user open the app and push the right button to verify that the status screen they are being shown really was generated by the NHS app. I can think of ways to reduce the possibility of a fake app or simple photoshopped photo being used as a forged status-OK page to show to people but it would rely on the person checking having a validation device. Again smart phones could come to the rescue there where validation was done by an app installed on a smart phone.

- Julian

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Re: NHS Patient Access vs new NHS App?

#409558

Postby chas49 » May 5th, 2021, 2:11 pm

XFool wrote:So, this is clearly one route - via the NHS App on phones - to some kind of 'vaccine passport'.


Reported earlier on the BBC that plans to integrate this into the NHS app (I think this was the NHS Covid19 app rather than the other one) aren't progressing well and may not be ready until the autumn. So any 'passport' for summer travel or events would need to be paper based. Doubtless they're looking at some over complex solution but I guess it's not as simple as we might think.....

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Re: NHS Patient Access vs new NHS App?

#409721

Postby stevensfo » May 6th, 2021, 7:25 am

chas49 wrote:
XFool wrote:So, this is clearly one route - via the NHS App on phones - to some kind of 'vaccine passport'.


Reported earlier on the BBC that plans to integrate this into the NHS app (I think this was the NHS Covid19 app rather than the other one) aren't progressing well and may not be ready until the autumn. So any 'passport' for summer travel or events would need to be paper based. Doubtless they're looking at some over complex solution but I guess it's not as simple as we might think.....


Yet the companies providing private Covid tests seem to manage perfectly well. A certificate provided that is recognised everywhere: name and address of company, type of test, dates, traceable barcode, name and DOB of person tested and signature etc.

I really don't see why it's so difficult to translate the current tiny card they give you for the jab into something a little more professional.

Steve

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Re: NHS Patient Access vs new NHS App?

#409746

Postby AF62 » May 6th, 2021, 9:32 am

stevensfo wrote:Yet the companies providing private Covid tests seem to manage perfectly well. A certificate provided that is recognised everywhere: name and address of company, type of test, dates, traceable barcode, name and DOB of person tested and signature etc.

I really don't see why it's so difficult to translate the current tiny card they give you for the jab into something a little more professional.

Steve


https://news.sky.com/story/covid-19-at- ... d-12282433
https://www.itpro.co.uk/security/hackin ... n-the-dark

The problem is how do the border guards check that the piece of paper they have been presented with is genuine, unless the document contains bank note / passport style security built into it or you have some enormous IT system that links every issuing organisation to every border station so they can check it is valid.

If you don't have either (or preferably both) of those, then you have a bit of paper saying "I'm fine, honest guv".

You can have simple or you can have secure, you can't have both.

The whole 'vaccine passport' is just an utter distraction. By the time everyone gets to agree on what it should certify, how it is to be produced, how it will be operate, etc. then we will be into 2021 and the need for it will have disappeared.


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