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Dishwasher cutlery tray?

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UncleEbenezer
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Dishwasher cutlery tray?

#450598

Postby UncleEbenezer » October 16th, 2021, 3:06 pm

My dishwasher having failed catastrophically, I want a new one.

If I go to ao.com and just search for regular dishwashers, the first result is "we recommend" https://ao.com/product/qwna1bf47ewen-sh ... 10-23.aspx . OK, let's make that a representative candidate.

I've also seen dishwashers with a cutlery rack at the top. It seems to make sense to put cutlery at the top, rather than taking up space for a cutlery tray in the main area. If I search ao for dishwashers with cutlery tray, "we recommend" https://ao.com/product/dfn28r22w-beko-s ... 43-23.aspx . Looks like another representative candidate.

The reviews for both those models are broadly reassuring. But a few of those for the second candidate, and others with cutlery tray, complain of inadequate space, either for dinner plates in the bottom or for tall glasses in the top.

My old dishwasher - with oldfashioned cutlery basket in the bottom - had limited space where I could put tall wine glasses in the top. My dad has a cutlery tray at the top, and I don't recollect any such problem. I suspect a well-designed three-level machine beats a lesser two-level one, but how am I to know where a machine I buy online sits on that scale?

Any experiences from fellow Fools, specifically with regard to any problems with the adequacy of the vertical space in your dishwashers?

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Re: Dishwasher cutlery tray?

#450621

Postby bungeejumper » October 16th, 2021, 5:16 pm

Different systems suit different people, I suppose. But - insofar as it's possible to think logically about these things :? - a vertical basket low down has always seemed like a better use of space than a spread-out horizontal tray at the top.

Why? Because you're loading more vertical cutlery per square inch than you ever could by loading it horizontally. Because the natural gravitational behaviour of water is to descend vertically, you could assume that each droplet will spend longer doing its cleansing stuff on a vertical knife than it would a horizontal knife. But I doubt that there can be very much advantage in it, or horizontal baskets wouldn't ever have survived very long at all.

We've had three successive Bosch/Neffs, with a vertical bottom-level cutlery basket - apart from a disastrous month with a top-level Hotpoint, which was just crappily made, so we sent it back. The only thing we learned from that experience is that (for us) the main top basket must absolutely be on its upper set of rails, so that we maximise the headroom for plates down below. I have a lurking suspicion that most of the people who complain about not having enough room for dinner plates have not RTFM wrt such spatial matters. ;)

But I can't tell you whether your top loading tray is more important to you than the bottom tray. It would depend on your crockery usage. One thing I'll tell you for sure is that we can't put wine glasses of any description into our dishwasher, because they go cloudy within weeks. If yours don't, then you have more choices than we do, so all power to your elbow. :D

BJ

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Re: Dishwasher cutlery tray?

#450627

Postby Gerry557 » October 16th, 2021, 5:35 pm

I would not get one with a top tray. I thought it would be a good idea at first but you effectively have to sort out dirty cutlery into slots and can't take the tray to the draw to pack them away.

Second it reduces the height of the top so overall the dishwasher is less effective.

I bought one with an adjustable top basket and the usual cutlery basket. You can drop handful of dirty cutlery in one go.

I'd also look for a five year warranty. Heater elements tend to go just after two years.

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Re: Dishwasher cutlery tray?

#450630

Postby MyNameIsUrl » October 16th, 2021, 5:46 pm

I've used both types, and the one with the top tray for cutlery was a bit tight for space on the upper crockery tray.

But the real reason I prefer a basket is that while loading, I can grab a handful of cutlery and shove it in the basket, then some plates, then some more cutlery, without having to whiz the cutlery tray in and out each time and position cutlery individually. And when emptying, I put the basket on the worktop and use both hands to chuck cutlery into the drawer. So I just find the basket easier to use and the cutlery tray rather a faff (though I'm easily irritated).

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Re: Dishwasher cutlery tray?

#450637

Postby jfgw » October 16th, 2021, 6:07 pm

You probably already know this but the top main drawer is almost invariably adjustable. This may involve removing the drawer and reinserting it in its other position, or there may be a lever each side at the top to release the drawer so that it drops down to its lower position (just pull it up for the top position). With (most/all?) Bosch/Neff/Siemens dishwashers, you can take the top drawer out completely and fit a spray attachment over the hole to allow you to wash bigger stuff.

Julian F. G. W.

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Re: Dishwasher cutlery tray?

#450644

Postby Watis » October 16th, 2021, 6:32 pm

Gerry557 wrote:
<snip>

I'd also look for a five year warranty. Heater elements tend to go just after two years.


I'm on my third dishwasher in about 30 years and have never had an element fail.

My current cooker, OTOH, blows the main oven element every 18 months!

Watis

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Re: Dishwasher cutlery tray?

#450646

Postby bungeejumper » October 16th, 2021, 6:42 pm

Watis wrote:
Gerry557 wrote:I'd also look for a five year warranty. Heater elements tend to go just after two years.


I'm on my third dishwasher in about 30 years and have never had an element fail.

The expensive issue, with Bosch/Neffs at least, is that the heater element is an integral part of the pump. So you're in for £200-odd, plus fitting, when your heater element goes, and you find that it's only marginally more expensive to replace the whole machine, so that's what you do.

That's what happened to me, and I was a bit cross at the time. Until I realised that my six year old d/w had cost me only a pound a week to own during its life, and maybe that wasn't so bad after all? ;)

BJ

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Re: Dishwasher cutlery tray?

#450662

Postby UncleEbenezer » October 16th, 2021, 8:26 pm

Thanks for the comments.

The one about taking the basket to the cutlery drawer when unloading makes sense: I do that now. Not an issue with my dad's one, as it's right next to the cutlery drawer, so I wasn't thinking of it as an issue. But mine isn't quite so near, and my plan for the new kitchen (when I can finally get the fitters in) is a U-shaped (or J-shaped) kitchen area with a dining area beside it, and the dishwasher opening into the dining area avoiding an awkward cupboard in the corner of the U. So it may be a case of unload onto the worktop, then go round to the kitchen side of the U (i.e. inside it) to put stuff away, if I find that less work than taking things individually.

Loading it isn't an issue. With a batch of plates and cutlery, I'll separate out the cutlery and load that first. Always makes sense to me!

So I guess I may forego that lovely extra space my dad has (and that my mum really made good use of when she was alive). It'll still be an improvement on a slimline!

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Re: Dishwasher cutlery tray?

#450666

Postby tjh290633 » October 16th, 2021, 9:42 pm

We have a different way. We take the plastic cutlery tray to the dishwasher and unload the washer tray into it there, then carry it back to it's drawer. The washer came with both a pull out tray at the top and a basket, which we have never used.it fits over some of the plate rack prongs on the bottom layer. As has been said above, the level of the top layer can be adjuster, but only the two side rows are suitable for tall glasses, and champagne flutes do not fit.

Nothing is perfect.

TJH

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Re: Dishwasher cutlery tray?

#450669

Postby Mike4 » October 16th, 2021, 10:07 pm

My only qdvice is don't get a 'slimline' dishwasher. Even though they are only 6" narrower than a standard one, they only seem to have half the space inside.

Never mind quibbling about the cutlery trays. huh. DAMHIKT.

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Re: Dishwasher cutlery tray?

#450675

Postby quelquod » October 16th, 2021, 10:40 pm

Having had both we prefer the top cutlery tray to the basket - all sorts of food waste seem to get stuck in the basket and need cleaned out pretty regularly and the top tray allows things to dry more effectively. As an aside we’ve never found a dishwasher which handled soup or cereal bowls satisfactorily. Perhaps it’s the odd shapes of our tableware but the machine seems to fill up in only a couple of days with just the 2 of us. Goodness knows how they can make such extravagant claims for the place settings it can hold. Still rather have it than not though!

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Re: Dishwasher cutlery tray?

#450678

Postby AF62 » October 16th, 2021, 10:52 pm

Mike4 wrote:My only qdvice is don't get a 'slimline' dishwasher. Even though they are only 6" narrower than a standard one, they only seem to have half the space inside.


A slimline dishwasher works fine for the two of us as it holds around a day’s worth of washing up, so if it held more it would either be run daily partly empty or I was waiting for it to be full I would need to buy more plates, cups, cutlery, etc. and have bigger cupboards to put all the stuff in.

As for machines with cutlery trays, I have one of these - https://ao.com/product/spv4emx21g-bosch ... 85-24.aspx

The bottom tray will take 27cm dinner plates with the upper tray on the middle one of its three adjustable heights, but it wouldn’t take anything larger in the middle of the tray as it would be hit by one of the two spinning water arms. Although you can fit larger serving plates at the side where the rotor arms don’t reach.

With the upper tray on a middle setting it will take normal sized drinking glasses but won’t take wine glasses (even short ones).

Personally I find a cutlery tray just as easy to load and unload as a basket. However the big win is creating extra space on the lower tray for plates and pans when you no longer have a basket.

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Re: Dishwasher cutlery tray?

#450681

Postby UncleEbenezer » October 16th, 2021, 11:40 pm

AF62 wrote:
Mike4 wrote:My only qdvice is don't get a 'slimline' dishwasher. Even though they are only 6" narrower than a standard one, they only seem to have half the space inside.


A slimline dishwasher works fine for the two of us as it holds around a day’s worth of washing up, so if it held more it would either be run daily partly empty or I was waiting for it to be full I would need to buy more plates, cups, cutlery, etc. and have bigger cupboards to put all the stuff in.


My old dishwasher is a slimline, which I bought on expectations similar to your experience (though as a single person I only run it every two or three days). It's ample for regular crockery and cutlery, but fills up when there are pots and pans, and is inadequate to things like the juicer - which yields several rather large parts when disassembled for washing up. So I want the next one to be full-size! If there's more space than I can use, I can get more profligate in washing up things like saucepans that have only been used for spuds or pasta and are currently re-used with just a simple rinse!

As for machines with cutlery trays, I have one of these - https://ao.com/product/spv4emx21g-bosch ... 85-24.aspx

The bottom tray will take 27cm dinner plates with the upper tray on the middle one of its three adjustable heights, but it wouldn’t take anything larger in the middle of the tray as it would be hit by one of the two spinning water arms. Although you can fit larger serving plates at the side where the rotor arms don’t reach.

With the upper tray on a middle setting it will take normal sized drinking glasses but won’t take wine glasses (even short ones).


That's a really useful explanation - thanks!

Personally I find a cutlery tray just as easy to load and unload as a basket. However the big win is creating extra space on the lower tray for plates and pans when you no longer have a basket.


Indeed, that was my thinking in posting here. The appeal of the vast space my dad has!

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Re: Dishwasher cutlery tray?

#450685

Postby Dod101 » October 17th, 2021, 12:22 am

How very interesting all of this is. I guess my AEG dishwasher is probably about 25 years old (we bought it with the house about 15 years ago) and it works faultlessly with a basket for cutlery at the bottom. Mind you I never put pots and pans in it. My late wife gave me lots of instructions, one of which was to clean pots and pans by hand.

I run my machine every two or three days like UE.

Tall wine glasses? When I have enough people in my place to worry about that, I wash them by hand. Otherwise, I only use sensible containers for wine or even the Scottish equivalent which are basically........or very basic.

Dod

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Re: Dishwasher cutlery tray?

#450694

Postby bungeejumper » October 17th, 2021, 8:40 am

AF62 wrote:As for machines with cutlery trays, I have one of these - https://ao.com/product/spv4emx21g-bosch ... 85-24.aspx

O/T, I know, but why would one need a wifi connected dishwasher? Can you tell it to start the washing cycle while you're leaving the office on your way home? Or does it phone you up with urgent messages? "Fer chrissakes, get this wash started soon. All that curry and garlic from last night's dinner. Listen, I'm telling you, it's hell in here." ;)

BJ

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Re: Dishwasher cutlery tray?

#450700

Postby Mike4 » October 17th, 2021, 9:19 am

Dod101 wrote:How very interesting all of this is. I guess my AEG dishwasher is probably about 25 years old (we bought it with the house about 15 years ago) and it works faultlessly with a basket for cutlery at the bottom. Mind you I never put pots and pans in it. My late wife gave me lots of instructions, one of which was to clean pots and pans by hand.

I run my machine every two or three days like UE.

Tall wine glasses? When I have enough people in my place to worry about that, I wash them by hand. Otherwise, I only use sensible containers for wine or even the Scottish equivalent which are basically........or very basic.

Dod


This thread highlights how differently people use their dishwashers. I find the dishwasher particularly useful for the pots and pans, especially after a roast dinner.

I also use it as a cupboard in which to store things that need washing up in order to keep the kitchen tidy, and run it whenever it is full rather than once a day regardless, as mentioned by AF62 upthread. Each time it runs it uses almost the same amount of leccy, water and chemicals as a full sized dishwasher and had I not bought the slimline one, I could run it even less frequently which would be good from an environmental standpoint.

Finally, I don't put decent quality crystal glassware in it (just cheapo low quality glasses) as the cheap glasses seem to get etched after a dozen or two cycles, and I worry about the same happening to the nice stuff. Is this a valid fear?

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Re: Dishwasher cutlery tray?

#450706

Postby bungeejumper » October 17th, 2021, 9:51 am

Mike4 wrote:Finally, I don't put decent quality crystal glassware in it (just cheapo low quality glasses) as the cheap glasses seem to get etched after a dozen or two cycles, and I worry about the same happening to the nice stuff. Is this a valid fear?

Depends on your water, I think. We have super-hard water, and all the salt and rinse aid and top-quality dw tablets in the world don't stop our crystal from going cloudy. (Well, it would do that if we were fool enough to risk it again - once was enough. :( ) Whereas our daughter in the Midlands can just put any glass, crystal or otherwise, in the machine and no problems. I console myself with the thought that hard water is better for your arteries. :|

BJ

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Re: Dishwasher cutlery tray?

#450711

Postby Mike4 » October 17th, 2021, 10:01 am

bungeejumper wrote:
Mike4 wrote:Finally, I don't put decent quality crystal glassware in it (just cheapo low quality glasses) as the cheap glasses seem to get etched after a dozen or two cycles, and I worry about the same happening to the nice stuff. Is this a valid fear?

Depends on your water, I think. We have super-hard water, and all the salt and rinse aid and top-quality dw tablets in the world don't stop our crystal from going cloudy. (Well, it would do that if we were fool enough to risk it again - once was enough. :( ) Whereas our daughter in the Midlands can just put any glass, crystal or otherwise, in the machine and no problems. I console myself with the thought that hard water is better for your arteries. :|

BJ


Ah yes it's all coming back to me, what they say about this. But there must be more to it than that as dishwashers partially soften their own water (this is why they need the salt). Also, I'm pretty certain my own dishwasher is plumbed into the mains water AFTER the water softener (I will check) so I think mine runs on properly softened water, yet the cheapo glasses still get etched.

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Re: Dishwasher cutlery tray?

#450716

Postby AF62 » October 17th, 2021, 10:34 am

bungeejumper wrote:
AF62 wrote:As for machines with cutlery trays, I have one of these - https://ao.com/product/spv4emx21g-bosch ... 85-24.aspx

O/T, I know, but why would one need a wifi connected dishwasher? Can you tell it to start the washing cycle while you're leaving the office on your way home? Or does it phone you up with urgent messages? "Fer chrissakes, get this wash started soon. All that curry and garlic from last night's dinner. Listen, I'm telling you, it's hell in here." ;)

BJ


Why did I need one - I didn't, it just came with that function.

Is it useful being connected to WiFi - sort of.

You can control the dishwasher from your phone, so yes you could tell it to start the washing cycle when you were not home - although you would obviously have needed to put the washing tablet in the machine first.

However the more useful things are it sends a notification to your phone when it has finished (to save you walking the few steps to the kitchen), if it is running out of salt or rinse aid (to save you looking at the indicators on the machine), and will even remind you to buy more washing tablets.

The phone app also has a 'be quiet please' function which makes the dishwasher run quieter (not that it is particularly noisy) for an hour (and presumably extending the wash time), I guess for people who have open plan kitchen / living rooms and set it running before they decided to watch TV.

Mike4 wrote:and run it whenever it is full rather than once a day regardless, as mentioned by AF62 upthread


I run mine once a day as with both of us being at home all day now we are retired we tend to run out of mugs or glasses if we don't, even if the machine is not full with plates and pans.

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Re: Dishwasher cutlery tray?

#450729

Postby UncleEbenezer » October 17th, 2021, 11:01 am

Mike4 wrote:Finally, I don't put decent quality crystal glassware in it (just cheapo low quality glasses) as the cheap glasses seem to get etched after a dozen or two cycles, and I worry about the same happening to the nice stuff. Is this a valid fear?

My glasses always go in the dishwasher.

The cheapos show quite a lot of staining (whatever you call it). The better-quality ones are good as new.


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