Solar Panels vs Wind Turbines

[Nocton]

There are proposals for truly massive solar 'farms' in Lincolnshire, one near where I live. The attraction for developers is lots of relatively flat land in one of the sunniest areas of the UK. However, this land is very productive farm land so there are lots of objections to these proposals especially when the country needs to increase its food production.
I know that wind turbines would be a better use of the land for renewable energy:
- wind potentially blows for 24 hours a day 365 days of the year, whereas sun only shines about 40% of the time
- you naturally can't get any solar electricity for half the day, whereas wind has no such limit. This is especially important in the winter.
- cloudy days are more common than windless days, thus reducing the relative power output of solar vs wind even further
- no farming can take place on a solar farm whereas farming can continue on about 90% of the land used for wind turbines.
- there is still massive potential for solar on domestic and commercial roofs

So we know that on a given area of land, wind will produce more electricity than solar, while still allowing farming to continue, but my question is:
On 100 ha land how much electricity would be generated p.a. by solar panels vs wind turbines. I have heard a figure of 5x, but cannot find any corroboration.

[monabri]

Interesting question. I had no idea but did some Googling!

https://renewableenergyhub.co.uk/blog/e ... uirements/

"25 acres of land is required for every 5 megawatts (MW) of installation while 6 to 8 acres will be needed for a 1MW farm."

https://landgate.com/news/2021/10/07/do ... ind-lease/

"One wind turbine can require up to 80 acres of land, and each turbine will generate around 2.5 MW. " ( ok, so 160 acres for a comparable 5MW).

I'm surprised it takes such a large area for a wind turbine. Surely they pack 'em in more than those densities?

Then there are the pros and cons for each renewable energy source.

[88V8]

There are proposals for truly massive solar 'farms' in Lincolnshire, one near where I live. The attraction for developers is lots of relatively flat land in one of the sunniest areas of the UK. However, this land is very productive farm land...

I have no love for the look of solar... but one can graze sheep below panels so it wouldn't be a total write-off... better than building breeding boxes on it.

Perhaps they will develop short-legged cows for the same purpose.

V8

[Tedx]

There is ongoing research into 'agri-voltaics' which may provide a solution in some cases. Some crops grow better with a bit of shade it seems and grazing animals tend to gather under the panels on hot days.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrivoltaics

[stevensfo]

I'm no expert, but I assume that once set up, an array of solar panels will be easier to maintain and replace than a wind turbine?

We now have brilliant robot vacuum cleaners that can 'see' around them and know where to vacuum and when to mop. I imagine looking after a solar panel farm would be a doddle.

I would register a patent myself, but I bet Dyson's already done it!


Steve

[UncleEbenezer]

There is ongoing research into 'agri-voltaics' which may provide a solution in some cases. Some crops grow better with a bit of shade it seems and grazing animals tend to gather under the panels on hot days.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agrivoltaics

Isn't that based on sharing the sunlight between the solar panels and things that grow? So the electricity generation would be reduced compared to a full-on solar farm which will, at best, co-exist with a bit of light grazing.

Or maybe some sites might import waste and grow mushrooms on it?

[Urbandreamer]

As per OP, solar and wind are complimentary rather than compete.

HOWEVER local issues tend to dominate.

LOT's of people think that new wind turbines are an eye saw, while old windmills are attractive.
Growing apples and letting pigs graze the orchard is complimentary....and smelly/
Agriculture isn't supposed to smell.

Hence it's far easier to setup a solar farm than many of the alternatives.

Now if we were truly grown up, we would have solar farms in deliberately low area's of the country. Preferably not too far from a river. Instead of farming land being flooded, flood the ground around the solar farm when water rises. But that would take joined up thinking wouldn't it?

If there are hills, then wind is best near the top. Also one side of the hill would be poor for solar.

Another thing to consider is that solar is nowhere near as good in Scotland as England. Something to do with the earth being a globe and Scotland being further north.

SO, it's not possible to do a simple comparison without knowing the site you intend.

Re Linconshire, shouldn't it be underwater, were it not for massive drainage work and pumping years ago? Arguably either solar or wind would work well in a salt march. Indeed Veg could be replaced by farmed fish living under solar panels or wind turbines.

But as soon as the various drainage schemes started to produce results a new problem emerged. As the land began to dry out it shrank and the surface of the land started to drop, making the natural flow of water along the various channels impossible. In fact, the entire fen was sinking in relation to the sea. The solution was to pump water from the lower levels to the upper drains.

https://www.lincolnshirelife.co.uk/heri ... -the-fens/

[DrFfybes]

Isn't that based on sharing the sunlight between the solar panels and things that grow? So the electricity generation would be reduced compared to a full-on solar farm which will, at best, co-exist with a bit of light grazing.

Or maybe some sites might import waste and grow mushrooms on it?

Solar farms have quite large gaps between the panels, required for access for maintenance, and also so they don't shade each other.

And underneath it is merely shady, not mushroom growing dark

Paul

[gryffron]

Re Linconshire, shouldn't it be underwater, were it not for massive drainage work and pumping years ago? Arguably either solar or wind would work well in a salt march. Indeed Veg could be replaced by farmed fish living under solar panels or wind turbines.

The powers that be recently published a map of "All the areas of Lincolnshire which might be flooded by Global Warming". Amazingly, it coincides almost exactly with all the bits that were flooded before they were drained in the 18th century.

It does seem strange to use the best farmland in the country for solar panels. Surely they could be put on heathland or hilly farmland where agriculture is less productive.

Of course there's nothing theoretically to stop you putting BOTH solar and wind on the same land. The wind turbines have to be a fair distance apart for maximum efficiency, but they don't create much shade, and solar panels don't stop the wind.

Gryff

[Urbandreamer]

It does seem strange to use the best farmland in the country for solar panels. Surely they could be put on heathland or hilly farmland where agriculture is less productive.

You mean like this wind farm near me? Not a great site for solar though.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scout_Moor_Wind_Farm

TBH it would be madness to put a solar farm there. It's very often cloudy.
SO, where in Lincolnshire are we to find heathland or hilly farmland?

What area of the country are you in? I doubt that Londoners will give up Hampstead heath for solar, though it would be madness to situate wind turbines there. The trees would seriously impact their productivity.

By the way hills have a north and south side. The north side being poor for solar in the UK (depending upon what a hill is).

[gryffron]

SO, where in Lincolnshire are we to find heathland or hilly farmland?

In the Wolds. ‘Bout the northern quarter of the county. But why do they all have to be in Lincolnshire? Most of the country is poorer agricultural land.

Gryff

[Urbandreamer]

In the Wolds. ‘Bout the northern quarter of the county. But why do they all have to be in Lincolnshire? Most of the country is poorer agricultural land.

Gryff

I confess that I thought, given that the OP was talking about Lincolnshire, that was the subject.

I have pointed out that it would be a stupid idea to site solar in Scotland, and also that hills have two sides. I'm not sure what more I can add.

BTW, the largest UK solar farm is actually in Wales. Just so you know.
Indeed, non of these seem to be in that county.
https://www.deegesolar.co.uk/uks_biggest_solar_farms/

Again, where do you live? Where do you get your energy from?
Do you possibly live next to a nuclear generator? Or a gas power plant (using gas form Norway). Possibly the local pant is fueled by coal, near the pit head (unlikely these days). Again, where does your energy come from.

Geographically I suspect that most of mine comes from the local wind farm.

Ps, just so you know, there are losses moving power from A to B. That's why the idea of solar panels in the Sahara feeding cities 1000's of miles away doesn't work.

[Tedx]

You would think there was enough undeveloped rooftop space to cater for our solar needs without touching farmland.

[Urbandreamer]

You would think there was enough undeveloped rooftop space to cater for our solar needs without touching farmland.

Indeed, but roof tops are not "cheap" to access. Nor cheap to maintain solar (clean). There is also the issue of what lies below. Roofs currently are not usually designed for men to walk upon safely.

After all, why not graze sheep there?
https://templeworks.weebly.com/
" A small flock of sheep was kept on the roof to keep the grass down."
I believe it stopped when one fell into the machinery.

Seriously, why not sheep? Given the original question about agriculture?
If it's easy to get there, why one over the other. If not, then ... well ask if getting there can be avoided.
"To get the sheep up there, they had to construct some sort of mechanical hoist/elevator as sheep cannot climb steps and certainly not ladders."

HINT, getting up and down can't be avoided if you want to actually USE the roof.

I feel some degree of NIMBY in this thread, though I have no idea of the easily accessible roof space in Lincolnshire.

PS, Temple mill is "up north".

[Nocton]

TY for all replies.
I haven't got a reply to my query, but I note on the web site given by Urbandreamer that the largest solar farm in the UK is currently 72Mw. The one proposed near us is 800MW!!. So you can see it is very, very big.
The attractions of Lincolnshire are:
- large county with relatively low population
- some very large farms/agribusinesses which makes it easier for a company to get land at this scale; in this case just dealing with one landowner.
- relatively sunny part of UK with low rainfall and cloud cover
- in south of county mostly flat.

And yes, the Lincolnshire Wolds is a large area of undulating land - the same geology as the Cotswolds.

[scotview]

If climate change is a real thing, surely it would have far more benefit for the UK to put every bit of productive farmland into growing food.

As temperate climate conditions becomes an ever more valuable commodity, with a lot of the planet burning up, it seems perverse to cover our farmland in solar panels.

[Tedx]

If climate change is a real thing, surely it would have far more benefit for the UK to put every bit of productive farmland into growing food.

As temperate climate conditions becomes an ever more valuable commodity, with a lot of the planet burning up, it seems perverse to cover our farmland in solar panels.

Indeed. But the future of farming in the UK is changing.

15 acre climate contolled glasshouses & turning waste into electricity onsite.



...and there's great progress in automation, agri voltaics and other areas too.

https://www.dyson.co.uk/newsroom/overvi ... rawberries

If the Dutch can do it, so can we.

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https://www.nationalgeographic.com/maga ... le-farming

[Midsmartin]

Wind turbines need to be widely spaced as turbulence from upstream ones ruins their efficiency.

The"Mallard Pass" solar farm is proposed on 2000 acres of farmland near Stamford. Is this the one?This would be truly huge, but still generating negligible power in the winter, or at night. They forecast 350MW of power (that's peak, in optimal conditions), which is similar to the output of an old gas power station, in the order of 1% of UK electricity demand.. In the summer at midday.

Sheep can graze under solar panels, but of course most of the sunlight no longer reaches the grass, so there's much less food.

Floating solar is becoming a thing. I wonder if nearby Rutland water could/should also become a solar power station?

[monabri]

Are we sitting comfortably?

Source : New Scientist https://www.newscientist.com/article/23 ... for-sheep/

[url=https://postimg.cc/n9f0jRCQ]

[JohnB]

Its unwise to assume grass growth is sunlight limited. Its more influenced by temperature and moisture levels. So while it doesn't grow in winter, not does it during a hot, dry summer, Lincolnshire conditions. Clearly the Wolds are not natural sheep territory, as crops pay more, but I assume the landowners expect panels+sheep+less manpower is more economic than high-input crops.