Making a public parking area into a private one

[Sunnypad]

Hi all

If an area that was previously open to all for parking is going to be taken over by a company enforcing PCNs, is there a legal notice period they have to give?

For context - I no longer drive and don't have a parking space. The flat I live in is looking to enforce the above in our development, presumably via private company. I am talking to the developer and alleged managing agent about it, but in terms of essential repairs eg if you need plumbing work done, they are saying there will be no provision and such companies will have to park in the nearest place they can.

I think they can unload heavy equipment outside, but they are saying after that, a tradesman would have to then find the nearest parking and walk back.

I know some of you will ask why I bought in such an odd situation, but if you've not already seen the threads on Comfort Cafe, there were valid reasons.

I know people manage this all over London and it's doable, but I might have to plan a few things asap if they can suddenly enforce a PCN area with no notice.

Thank you.

[didds]

I'm somewhat presuming this is private land that previously was left open for all to use, but now an alternative is being implemented - by the owners of the said private land? In a similar way to how maybe some buildings (churches, cathedrals spring to mind) that always had free entry but now charge?

didds

[Sunnypad]

Thank you didds

It is private land belonging to the development but a section of parking is not numbered or allocated.

It's not potential charges for parking that's the issue (those who bought parking spaces are facing a whole other raft of problems).

The concern is that it will be "permit only" to the extent that visitors to our flats will actually be ticketed - rather than, for example, having a permit to display in the window.

There's still no word from the mgmt co today but our last message from them said it will be a PCN area by March. They have "warned" us about this since November and at one stage even said "by the end of next week".

They can't implement this by Friday or next week, I hope? So presumably it's a case of incompetence.

But I wondered if they are legally obliged to give notice before just putting up a sign and issuing fines. They haven't issued any formal notice, just said verbally what will happen. I notice that nothing has been put in writing about this.

[SalvorHardin]

Something to bear in mind in cases like this is that if the land has been used for parking (and/or access) for more than 20 years then the landowner has given an "easement by prescription" to everyone who has been using it (and everyone who might want to use it in the future) and can't fence it off or charge for its use. This comes from the Prescription Act 1832. Wikipedia has a nice summary

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Easements_in_English_law#Prescription

From a firm of solicitors, looking at it from the Landowner's point of view:

"If a person uses someone else’s land without using force, openly and without the owner’s permission for an uninterrupted period of 20 years, then that person may apply to the Land Registry to gain a legal right to continue to use the land in perpetuity. This is known as acquiring an easement “by prescription”. Most commonly this relates to rights of way but rights to park can also be acquired in the same way."

https://www.farleys.com/parking-on-private-land-the-risk-to-landowners/

Here's the government guidance on access (the same law applies to parking)

"You can get a legal right of access, known as a ‘prescription’, through long-term use. This right can be established if you, or the previous owners, have unlawfully driven across common land to access your property for over 20 years without being challenged by the landowner."

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/common-land ... by-vehicle

[Sunnypad]

Thanks Salvor, it's a new development.

I think we might just have to accept they can do as they please with no notice.

[didds]

The concern is that it will be "permit only" to the extent that visitors to our flats will actually be ticketed - rather than, for example, having a permit to display in the window.
.

Obviously this comes down to the nitty gritty, but as an example where my mum lives in a retirement block of flats, it is "resident only parking" - but she has spare parking permits for use by visitors.

If the parking mob aren't going to provide spare permits for visitors, why wouldn't each flat have a permit provided anyway - and any flat without a vehicle themselves means that permit is available to a visitor.

I feel Im still missing some nuance in this.

[DrFfybes]

Basically, the landowner can do what they like.

My take on this, which may be wide of the mark, is that some residents pay/paid for a parking space.
Parking has been open and uncontolled, possibly to the point that paid for spaces are being occupied by others and the payers are unable to park, or rather than some of the payers are feeling miffed that they're paying for something others get for free, or that the owner hasn't sold enough parking spaces and wants to encourage more people to buy them

Obviously your visitors park for free.

So the manglement company use their enforcement people to sign and enforce. However, when we did this on Private land near a university, we never actually bothered with the enforcment. What we did was pay for the signs, and as it was a private road used by few people any persistant offenders got a note reminding them, and if that failed a call to the enforcement people meant they popped around and slapped a charge notice on the car.

We discussed 'visitor' spaces, visitor permits, etc, but in the end we didn't feel it necessary. What might be an idea is to try and garner some sort of group action from affected residents, and see if you can get a visitor permit system deployed. Obviously there would be a charge for these, after all those with permanent spaces pay.

Paul

[Lootman]

Basically, the landowner can do what they like.

My take on this, which may be wide of the mark, is that some residents pay/paid for a parking space.

Parking has been open and uncontolled, possibly to the point that paid for spaces are being occupied by others and the payers are unable to park, or rather than some of the payers are feeling miffed that they're paying for something others get for free, or that the owner hasn't sold enough parking spaces and wants to encourage more people to buy them

Obviously your visitors park for free.

So the manglement company use their enforcement people to sign and enforce. However, when we did this on Private land near a university, we never actually bothered with the enforcment. What we did was pay for the signs, and as it was a private road used by few people any persistant offenders got a note reminding them, and if that failed a call to the enforcement people meant they popped around and slapped a charge notice on the car.

We discussed 'visitor' spaces, visitor permits, etc, but in the end we didn't feel it necessary. What might be an idea is to try and garner some sort of group action from affected residents, and see if you can get a visitor permit system deployed. Obviously there would be a charge for these, after all those with permanent spaces pay.

One of my BTLs was a small block of four flats with off-street parking for four cars. Logically that is one space for each flat. However I talked to my solicitor about the situation and he advised me to offer the flats with no parking, and then rent out the spaces separately to non-residents.

His reasoning was that if I included parking with the flats then the parking is covered by tenants' rights. But if I rented the parking to local non-residents then the issue of tenants' rights did not arise, and I was free to raise rents or give notice on those parking spaces without worrying about their "rights".

So that is what I did. A good example perhaps of how pro-tenant "protections" actually end up harming tenants.

[Sunnypad]

Thanks for the replies

I have had a response from the management company. I have lovely neighbours but I prefer to do queries myself, partly for records and partly because many residents with cars don't seem to understand how leasehold works, or what parking agreement they signed up to. I didn't get any parking info as I have no car and didn't pay for a space.

Mgmt company have said they are aware a system needs to be in place for service vehicles. It's not 100% essential I suppose, but the nearest alternative parking is enough of a walk that it will put some firms off doing a job.

They say that about two weeks notice will be given before anything starts, which gives me time to sort a couple of jobs by just "borrowing" a space from a neighbour.

It's a shame that they took over a fortnight to issue any clarity on this, as the 1st March date was worrying everyone.

Didds - some blocks will only issue permits for registered vehicles. The place I just moved from caused chaos by implementing an online system, which meant wardens didn't have any way of knowing which cars were allowed to be there, so that's one concern I had. It also made borrowing a space difficult.

Thank you for all the replies.

[didds]

Didds - some blocks will only issue permits for registered vehicles. The place I just moved from caused chaos by implementing an online system, which meant wardens didn't have any way of knowing which cars were allowed to be there, so that's one concern I had. It also made borrowing a space difficult.

id imagine it also created chaos for those residents with no internet access so couldn't register their vehicle!