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DAK - About home automation?

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ten0rman
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Re: DAK - About home automation?

#80211

Postby ten0rman » September 10th, 2017, 11:33 am

As someone who has fallen foul of this restriction (max of 13A per plate, even though there were two sockets), I do feel that this is a serious omission in the relevant standards. I do have a number of triple & quad (gang?) sockets and all have a built in 13A fuse, yet none of the twin-gang sockets have this fuse.
Although I am not an electrician per se, I do have electrical & electronic training yet for many years was completely unaware of this restriction, so how does the man on the Clapham Omnibus go on when he/she have no idea at all how electricity works? Surely it was not beyond the wit of the standards people (but then again perhaps it was) to understand that a non-knowledgable person seeing two 13A sockets of a single plate would assume that they could indeed plug in a couple of heavy duty items, say a washing machine and an electric kettle. For the record, these days I do treat dual-gang sockets as a convenience to avoid having to plug/unplug items rather than a source of 26A.
I accept that using high quality sockets, eg MK, will reduce the risk, but that risk will still be there, and I do wonder how many fires have been caused by this.
Perhaps the answer is (was?) that the standards were written at a time when people did not have many high powered items, but even so it seems foolhardy to me.
Regards,
ten0rman

csearle
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Re: DAK - About home automation?

#80219

Postby csearle » September 10th, 2017, 12:39 pm

FredBloggs wrote:(BTW - 3kw@ 220v is slightly more than 13a).
That's not the way it works old bean. The thing that stays the same* is the resistance of the element not the Wattage. If the voltage drops to 220V then the power disspiated will decrease.

If you were to follow the "3kw@ 220v is slightly more than 13a" logic to the extreme then if the voltage dropped to 1V the current would have to rise the 3000A! :D

Regards,
Chris
* Of course it changes a little as it heats up.

Breelander
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Re: DAK - About home automation?

#80326

Postby Breelander » September 11th, 2017, 1:31 am

FredBloggs wrote:But 220v is our national voltage for domestic buildings?


No. It was nominally 240v in the UK, 220v in Europe, but now that's all been 'harmonised' (sort of)...

Your Electricity Board by law must deliver 230 volts +10% - 6% (ie. between 216.2 volts and 253 volts), and to maintain the frequency at 50Hz ± 1% (ie. between 49Hz and 51Hz) over a 24 hour period.

The EU decided, in its wisdom, to harmonise the UK standard mains voltage of 240v AC and the European standard of 220v AC, at 230v AC. Fine in theory but the costs of replacing all the supply equipment to deliver 230v was uneconomic (there being no advantage whatever in changing, other than ‘harmonisation’). So to avoid accusations of failure to harmonise, they simply fiddled with the legal voltage limits, nothing actually changed!.
http://coffeetime.wikidot.com/uk-eu-mai ... monisation

No change in voltage is required by either system as both 220 V and 240 V fall within the lower 230 V tolerance bands (230 V ±10%). Some areas of the UK still have 250 volts for legacy reasons, but these also fall within the 10% tolerance band of 230 volts. In practice, this allows countries to continue to supply the same voltage (220 or 240 V)...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mains_ele ... ardisation
Last edited by Breelander on September 11th, 2017, 1:33 am, edited 1 time in total.

Itsallaguess
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Re: DAK - About home automation?

#83083

Postby Itsallaguess » September 24th, 2017, 7:09 am

FredBloggs wrote:
It's not out of the question that in the future, such a system might be called upon for other automation tasks


I came across this offer on Amazon last night, when looking for a wifi-enabled Smart Plug -

TP-Link HS110 Wi-Fi Smart Plug with Energy Monitoring
(£22.99 delivered) -

https://www.amazon.co.uk/HS110-Monitori ... B01IBUF48S

I was also looking to see if there was a suitable open-source platform available that was able to aggregate control of various devices, and I stumbled upon this very promising website discussing 'Home Assistant', which looks like it might fit the bill, and certainly seems to be compatible with the above devices -

https://home-assistant.io/

https://home-assistant.io/components/switch.tplink/

Anyhow, I remembered this thread and thought the above might be useful for those that might be interested in this area of home-automation technology.

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

wickham
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Re: DAK - About home automation?

#83254

Postby wickham » September 25th, 2017, 7:24 am

Make sure that a WiFi enabled switch will reconnect after a power cut. I started another topic because our system failed to reconnect automatically, although the router did.
viewtopic.php?f=39&t=7518
Solution not found yet, apart from an ethernet connection to the sender unit, avoiding WiFi and password from boiler cupboard to router.

stewamax
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Re: DAK - About home automation?

#123146

Postby stewamax » March 8th, 2018, 12:33 pm

I've been looking into various home automation solutions for some years, Z-Wave, Zigbee and a few others and once had a brief dalliance with X10.

I use X10 as an adjunct to controlling my CH (rather than immersion heater). I installed it some years ago before the fancy smartphone apps were available, but did want something that would successfully cope with Winter power-cuts. It goes like this:

My battery backed-up burglar alarm has an X10 module which can sent alarm signals to X10 devices.
The alarm system also has a GSM module that accept remote (password-controlled...) instructions via SMS messages
My well-insulated loft has a lot of CH and H&C pipework and three water tanks that are a worry if things get very cold.
The loft has a frost-stat in its coldest part that acts as a wireless sensor to the burglar alarm. It triggers an alarm at lower than 4 deg C.
The alarm system registers the alarm and initiates an X10 event via the house wiring (a bit like Homeplug) to an X10 switch near the main room thermostat. This switch in turn closes a purpose-built relay assembly (I couldn't buy a suitable item off the shelf) that overrides the thermostat and calls for heat whatever the thermostat says.
The GSM module is also instructed to issue an identical instruction to the X10 switch on receipt of a suitable SMS message.

The end-result of all this (now old hat) palaver is that for many years I have been saved from burst pipes and able to turn the CH on a few hours before returning home (I used to travel a lot).

Itsallaguess
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Re: DAK - About home automation?

#123300

Postby Itsallaguess » March 8th, 2018, 9:05 pm

I've been thinking of having a go at a DIY smart-switch for my central-heating, using something similar to one of these units -

https://www.amazon.co.uk/Sonoff-Wireles ... B077N5NS9H

https://www.amazon.co.uk/AONOKOY-Wirele ... B076HL423Q

I know they are meant for switching mains-devices, but I see no reason why I couldn't knock up a 240v relay that's powered by one of the above units, and then simply putting a switching wire into the relay, paralleled across my central-heating thermostat wiring.

Has anyone tried doing anything similar, using kit like the above?

Is there any downsides that I'm missing here, apart from a bit of DIY wiring?

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

dspp
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Re: DAK - About home automation?

#123308

Postby dspp » March 8th, 2018, 10:31 pm

A general downside is my thought about how I, or my trades, would feel if we ever bought or dealt with any of your houses. I'm not singling out any of you in particular, and I am very happy to read about your ingenuity, but I can't help thinking that you are creating unmaintainable and unsellable monsters.

And I used to designs these sorts of things industrially, so this is not a criticism of your good efforts, just of the implications.

One of the tradesmen I know well is gently edging across from sparkying to this arena. He and I are gobsmacked at the rabbit runs we come across/discuss. One of the better plumbers I know was unable to come up with a system design for a smart multizone heating solution even when I showed him the specs of the key components, basically no-one in his team had the skillset (and they are a fairly good bunch in that company). All this added complexity is not being married with sufficient complexity-hiding, or with a corresponding upskilling & cross-skilling of the workforce. And that's before we get to any bespoke systems such as you are all describing.

But please do it, and please talk about it, because it is fascinating to read about :)

(so far I just have a hot water dump load diverter (export scavenger) on my solar PV as my contribution to complexity)

regards, dspp

csearle
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Re: DAK - About home automation?

#123318

Postby csearle » March 8th, 2018, 11:59 pm

gryffron wrote:Be careful. An immersion heater is often much > than the typical 3kW which can be sourced from a standard electrical socket. Do you know its rating?
Always an important question to ask Gryff but I find that almost all normal domestic immersion heaters draw 13A or less. The rating of the accessories is only of significance inasmuch as one might like the accessories used with steady heavy loads to be over-dimensioned in terms of rating.

Regards,
Chris

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Re: DAK - About home automation?

#123319

Postby csearle » March 9th, 2018, 12:01 am

richlist wrote:I agree with Gryffron.....i was always under the impression that immersion heater switches were rated 20 amps not the 13 amps that sockets and standard time switches are rated.

I think it's something to do with the fact that they can draw a high current for a long time so need a higher rated switch.

No doubt the electricians here will be able to confirm.
Yes I believe you are right. It is because an immersion heater is drawing, say 13A, for a longish period of time that it might be better to have an accessory working well within its rating rather than at it.

Regards,
Chris

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Re: DAK - About home automation?

#123335

Postby Itsallaguess » March 9th, 2018, 5:09 am

dspp wrote:
A general downside is my thought about how I, or my trades, would feel if we ever bought or dealt with any of your houses. I'm not singling out any of you in particular, and I am very happy to read about your ingenuity, but I can't help thinking that you are creating unmaintainable and unsellable monsters.

And I used to designs these sorts of things industrially, so this is not a criticism of your good efforts, just of the implications.


I understand why there might be a sense of nervousness around this, as at first glance it might seem that people here are discussing quite often really complicated solutions, but I think we need to remember that where discussions are taking place around home-automation of central heating systems, the majority of bespoke solutions (and even the one I've recently discussed regarding the possible use of cheap, off-the-shelf smart sockets/switches) are really just simple switch circuits in themselves, on the heating side, wired in parallel across existing thermostatic circuits.

On the face of it, my existing central heating controls might well seem very complicated to someone coming across it for the first time, what with the various extra controls I've created, such as a DIY boost-switch, and a wireless thermostat unit, but everything eventually goes back to just two simple terminals at the boiler control panel, that will fire the boiler up when a demand for heat is seen at those two terminals during a 'switch-closed' operation.

How that 'switch-closed' situation is generated further away from the boiler is really the basis for most of the discussions here, so whilst I agree that an initial view of such bespoke solutions might warrant a few furrowed eyebrows from tradesmen who've not been involved with the control circuit design, I think that so long as it's clearly understood by the owner then it shouldn't generate too many insurmountable issues, I wouldn't have thought.

I do agree though, that where the control-circuit design isn't clearly understood by the owner (and it's clear that this might well be the case where home-owners take charge of bespoke solutions from the previous home-owner...), then it would become a little more difficult for a walk-in tradesman to then start to diagnose potential issues in those control-circuits.

This reminds me that I've still not generated that laminated control-diagram that I meant to stick next to the boiler panel......

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: DAK - About home automation?

#123363

Postby dspp » March 9th, 2018, 8:58 am

Itsallaguess wrote:
I do agree though, that where the control-circuit design isn't clearly understood by the owner (and it's clear that this might well be the case where home-owners take charge of bespoke solutions from the previous home-owner...), then it would become a little more difficult for a walk-in tradesman to then start to diagnose potential issues in those control-circuits.

This reminds me that I've still not generated that laminated control-diagram that I meant to stick next to the boiler panel......

Cheers,

Itsallaguess


...... and done the hazard analysis for the various failure states, and written the spare parts & sources list, and the trouble-shooting guide, and the user & maintenance manual, oh and figured out some sort of an insurance as you were the system designer in an on-sale situation :)

good luck all !

dspp

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Re: DAK - About home automation?

#123415

Postby stewamax » March 9th, 2018, 10:51 am

To dspp's valid point:
but I can't help thinking that you are creating unmaintainable and unsellable monsters

Apart from 'designing and building' (actually not a big deal) my now-old-hat system, I built it so that it can be unplugged and completely removed if/when the house is sold. (I installed the burglar alarm so knew how to integrate the two).
I also put an adjacent EE Signal Box (mobile signal via broadband) for when our admittedly patchy 3G/4G signal fails, and the router has several hours of UPS battery backup; again all instantly removable.

The only concession to 'removability' is Ethernet Cat 6e wiring (rather than WiFi) to my key tower PCs, but at least there are terminated with wall-mounted RJ45 sockets and not dangling cables!

Itsallaguess
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Re: DAK - About home automation?

#182822

Postby Itsallaguess » November 25th, 2018, 1:37 pm

I remembered this thread this morning, after seeing that Argos currently have a really good home-automation offer on, where we can buy 3 off TP-LINK HS100 smart-plugs for just £36.99 -

https://www.argos.co.uk/product/6254269/specialoffers/E28621

Anyhow, given our discussion on this thread back in March, where I was wondering if these smart-plugs could be used to knock-up a cheap central-heating control-system, where I'd want to warm the house remotely ready for when we got in over winter, I've bitten the bullet and am going to give it a go.

I intend to get a small enclosure and wire up one of these 240V / 20A double-pole contactors -

https://www.screwfix.com/p/british-general-20a-dp-contactor/6654p

The HS100 smart-plug will then control the 240V relay, which will then switch a simple two-wire circuit wired in parallel off my existing central-heating on/off switch, and in theory I should be able to turn on my central heating from anywhere in the world, so long as I've got a connection to the internet.

I've had one of the smart-plugs working fine already, just to test it all out, and from opening the box to being able to switch a bed-side lamp on and off took just a few minutes. I think I'll use that one for the outside Christmas lights this year...

In terms of the central-heating controls, it won't have all the bells and whistles of a HIVE system, but it should hopefully do what I want it to do, and for a fraction of the cost, and with all the parts easily and cheaply replaceable......

I'll let you know how I get on...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: DAK - About home automation?

#183349

Postby csearle » November 27th, 2018, 6:58 pm

Itsallaguess wrote:...
I am following in your footsteps but have only got so far as switching on/off the bedside lamp. Muttering "Alexa Lights off" is often all I've energy for at that stage. Often dream of the obliging Alexa. C.

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Re: DAK - About home automation?

#183575

Postby Itsallaguess » November 28th, 2018, 4:32 pm

csearle wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:...


I am following in your footsteps but have only got so far as switching on/off the bedside lamp. Muttering "Alexa Lights off" is often all I've energy for at that stage. Often dream of the obliging Alexa.


Ha!

I'm not wanting to go down the Alexa route to be honest, and just fancy a bit of 'out-and-about' automation to keep my eye in with all these internet-facing gadgets, and I think the central-heating-control side of things is the obvious starting point.

I'm also always keen to cost-cut some of the more expensive solutions, and if I can do that whilst building in a cheap maintenance plan (all of the modular components will be easily and cheaply replaceable if and when they expire) then that starts to look interesting for me.

Plus, it's a long and dark winter, and I need things like this to keep the old brain-cells active!

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: DAK - About home automation?

#183611

Postby kiloran » November 28th, 2018, 6:00 pm

Although home automation has a great attraction from a geek point of view, I'd be very wary of anything which may cause problems to a non-geek. What happens to other occupants of the house if the geek is run over by a bus? Can the non-geek do simple things like control the central heating?

--kiloran (geek-ish but aware that the bus is getting nearer ;) ;) ;) )


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