garden socket

[Dod1010]

Some of you clever people will be able to help I am sure. After I got a very large tree in my garden cut down I have found to my surprise an electric socket by the trunk (which had been obscured by the branches of this evergreen which at its foot was about 30 feet in diameter) It is the usual garden/outdoor type with a plastic hinged cover over the three pin socket. The socket appears dead as I have tried plugging in a light but I do not know if it is just the socket that is dead and nor can I discover where the other end is (to plug into an electricity source) I am the least practical man around. How do I discover if it is live and where the other end is?

Dod

[Slarti]

There are cable detectors in the DIY stores that will detect cables and almost anything else in a wall. They might work in the ground also.

And I would have a gentle dig down where the cable from the socket disappears into the ground and see if it is possible to physically find the direction of the cable run.

Slarti

[JMN2]

I assume there is no "tree garden socket" labelled on any of your consumer unit MCB? So somewhere there is a wiring centre or a junction box and if the socket is dead then it might've been disconnected and "looped out" (or faulty).

[csearle]

I am the least practical man around. How do I discover if it is live and where the other end is?

Well your light-test is sort of ok to check if it is dead, but only if you check the light before and after to make sure is was actually working during the test. Also, if only the neutral has become disconnected for any reason then the light would not illuminate but it would still be live and potentially dangerous.

Better to use someting like this or this (between all three combinations of the socket's internal wires).

As Slarti suggested I'd try to see which direction the cable from the socket outlet heads. They usually head off in their main direction, which might allow you to project to the other end. They usually emerge just outside the house to be terminated either outside at a waterproof box of threaded through the wall to the inside. Fences are popular too. It might emerge at the nearest fence and be clipped low down (possibly in the meantime slightly buried).

Typically they would either be supplied from the nearest socket within the house, or sometimes directly from the fuseboard. Not always the case though!

Good luck,
Chris

[Dod1010]

Thanks to all. On my fusebox (well not a fuse box but a lot of trip switches, many of the trips are labelled but alas not this so although that was a good idea I cannot apply it.

I am taken with your thoughts, Chris, on the Lap Voltage Tester because that would answer the question of whether there is a live connection. I cannot find any terminal at what seems to be the obvious spot, on the nearest house wall. I am familiar with outside terminals because I had one installed for my garden strimmer but can find none anywhere that I do not know about anyway.

I assume also that, as this was or maybe still is, carrying 240 volts or thereabouts, it would have some sort of protection or warning underground. How deep would the cable be typically laid? I am guessing that it was installed maybe 20 years ago because that is when a big extension was done and the guy who removed the tree guessed it was about that age.

Dod

[Breelander]

I assume also that, as this was or maybe still is, carrying 240 volts or thereabouts, it would have some sort of protection or warning underground.

If it was installed properly (and not a DIY bodge) then the cable should run inside a reinforced protection tube, the end of which should be visible at the tree (you may need to clear away some topsoil to see it). If so, and the other end of the cable is no longer attached to anything it may be possible to pull it out from the tree end.

[csearle]

I assume also that, as this was or maybe still is, carrying 240 volts or thereabouts, it would have some sort of protection or warning underground. How deep would the cable be typically laid? I am guessing that it was installed maybe 20 years ago because that is when a big extension was done and the guy who removed the tree guessed it was about that age.

If it was installed according to guidelines then it would be buried about 700mm deep in soil (or less under paving) with a warning tape immediately over the cable and another just under the surface. It would also be armoured cable (or equivalent).

So if the cable disappearing into the ground is just a PVC flat cable or flex with no protection then it would almost certainly have been a DIY job, which very often means no guidelines have been followed and just about enough has been done to make the thing function. If it is an armoured cable, especially if the ends of the warning tapes are adjacent to where the cable emerges, then it has the hallmarks of a professional job.

If the cable is live then switching off the trip switches in turn will allow you to home in on the circuit supplying the socket. This may help locate the place where the cable enters the building; if the socket is dead then any trip switches that are currently switched off might be candidates for a dedicated circuit supplying it. It could also simply be disconnected.

Chris

[Dod1010]

You have made me highly suspicious of this socket because all I have is a black plastic cable (in good condition) coming out of the ground and disappearing into a thicket of roots and so far I have not been able to even follow it below the surface. If I use the Lap Voltage tester and it shows negative am I safe just to chop off the cable? I hate electricity, well of course I like it but am terrified of messing with it.

Dod

[Itsallaguess]

If I use the Lap Voltage tester and it shows negative am I safe just to chop off the cable?

I'd not touch it at all until I'd found the other end of it.

If that means digging it up, starting from the end you can see, then that's where I'd start too...

Itsallaguess

[Dod1010]

If I use the Lap Voltage tester and it shows negative am I safe just to chop off the cable?

I'd not touch it at all until I'd found the other end of it.

If that means digging it up, starting from the end you can see, then that's where I'd start too...

Itsallaguess

I agree with that. I am now wondering if I can locate the previous owner who I think still lives locally and see if she can shed any light on it. The problem I think is that this evergreen was probably planted as a nice little tree in the centre of the lawn and somebody had the bright idea of lighting it at night. Then the house was sold by which time the tree had grown and before I had it cut down it was a 40 foot high specimen with a base diameter of around 30 feet and the socket long forgotten. Thanks for all the advice.

Dod

[jfgw]

My thoughts:

"I've tested it with all these gizmos and it is definitely disconnected".

Months later while fumbling in a cupboard,

"Hey, I wonder what this switch is for..."

Ideally, you need to find the other end and test it to make sure that the bit you found really is the other end. Are there any clues? Holes in walls that have been filled or screw-holes where there used to be cable cleats?

Julian F. G. W.

[csearle]

You have made me highly suspicious of this socket because all I have is a black plastic cable (in good condition) coming out of the ground and disappearing into a thicket of roots and so far I have not been able to even follow it below the surface. If I use the Lap Voltage tester and it shows negative am I safe just to chop off the cable? I hate electricity, well of course I like it but am terrified of messing with it.

Even if you establish that it is dead it would, as Its [Ed. and now Julian] have suggested, be highly advisable to establish from where, if at all, it is supplied.

I had one case where a buried flex supply cable to a garden pond had just been cut off as the pond was removed and filled-in. The supply had simply been switched-off at a fused-connexion unit. Eventually it became a lawn and the mower trimmed the vestige of cable off to grass height. One day the client's lamp in her freezer in her garage burnt out and she switched on said fused-connexion unit thinking erroneously that it affected the freezer. This made the cable live and put at risk of harm any of her children running barefoot on the lawn. (Happily it started causing her residual current device to trip in the wet weather, so we sorted it out before anything untoward occurred.)

That little story is an example of why it is best to find the other end of cables, even if they are dead, before cutting them off.

Chris

[bungeejumper]

Surely there are cable detectors that claim to tell you whether the wire is live or not?

Back in the days before Part P, people would often run exterior cables back to a switched fused spur inside the house, and then they'd just piggyback it onto a standard 13 amp plug socket and call the job done. I'd be scouring the skirting boards for spur points. And if they were feeling really conscientious , they'd bury the cable inside a length of plastic garden hose, which was all very well until the hose filled up with water. My daughter's pond pump was done like that. Shocking, perhaps literally!

OP, you say that the cable is black. Is it armoured cable, circular in section and about 15mm diameter? Or is it flat flex?

BJ

[Dod1010]

BJ

The cable does not look armoured to me. It is plastic and black and is about 15 mm in diameter. It looks in good condition. The three pin socket is protected by a plastic hinged cover.

Earlier in this thread Chris recommended a voltage detector. I have not followed up on that yet.

Dod

[Dod1010]

BJ

Just had another look at the cable. I guess it could be called armoured in the sense that is not simple the sort that you would find in a house.

Dod

[bungeejumper]

Just had another look at the cable. I guess it could be called armoured in the sense that is not simple the sort that you would find in a house.

Armoured cable is finished with a sleeve of black PVC over the protective cords, so that might still be it. And it's very stiff. Either way, if the cable is 15mm and round then it's going to stand out like a sore thumb where it comes into the house.

BJ

[Dod1010]

BJ

You have pretty well described it and I will do a thorough search tomorrow, but I seem to have looked in all the obvious places. At least I now have a plan of action

Thanks to all and I will report back on the eventual outcome.

Dod

[csearle]

...I will report back on the eventual outcome.

By the way those voltage-detector gadgets don't detect energised line conductors outside of an armoured cable (because the electric field does not extend beyond the Earthed steel armour).

Instead you need to take the front off your socket outlet and offer up the detector to each of the wires in turn.

Regards,
Chris

[Sussexlad]

BJ

You have pretty well described it and I will do a thorough search tomorrow, but I seem to have looked in all the obvious places. At least I now have a plan of action

Thanks to all and I will report back on the eventual outcome.

Dod

You don't have a garage with power, do you ? That's where my garden sockets are fed from.

[Dod1010]

I have searched all round the exterior of the house, including switching on external lighting and tried the cable to see if it has any power but so far to no avail. The garage does indeed have power and lots of sockets, besides the lighting. I wonder..........It is a long way from the end of the cable though. AS BJ has said the cable is not something I am going to miss, not like say a SKY cable coming in from the dish for example.

Dod