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Do posts get pulled without explanation?

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Sorcery
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Do posts get pulled without explanation?

#216909

Postby Sorcery » April 23rd, 2019, 10:23 pm

Moderator Message:
RS: Moved from Room 101. NB this is not a thread on moderation!


I know I often make mistakes posting and the post gets lost, not exactly sure how but it happens.
This one was one I posted around this time 21:00 to 22:30 yesterday on the polite discussions board in the thread "The withdrawal agreement from the EU".
It was quite polite I think, I quoted 3 people's responses to something I had previously posted and took some time to write. I believe I saw it after posting, today I can't. The only reference that might have been dodgy was the last sentence where I said something like "Always look on the bright side of life was right", where I was suggesting to a respondent that he should be more optimistic. I was of course referring to the song from "The Life of Brian" and I knew it was Easter Monday, hence the reference.

Of course that might be enough on an Easter Monday to get it pulled. However there is no trace of the post's existence like "Removed" or suchlike and nothing in my email and no unread private messages here on TLF. Just wondering if anyone has removed the post? No problem if so, I won't contest it.

However if it has been removed, it would have been great if I could have had a chance to change it to something more acceptable. If it hasn't then I think I will need to start saving my posts locally before posting.

Thank you for your time and efforts with TLF.

Itsallaguess
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Re: Do posts get pulled without explanation?

#216921

Postby Itsallaguess » April 24th, 2019, 4:56 am

Sorcery wrote:
I quoted 3 people's responses to something I had previously posted and took some time to write. I believe I saw it after posting, today I can't.


I've just taken a look through the mod-logs for the past week, and there's been nothing removed of yours at all other than a post-deletion you did yourself due to a duplicate-port having been created. The original post of yours is still there above it (https://tinyurl.com/y3duzbcq).

I suspect (and it's easy done...) that you may have carried out a 'Preview', and perhaps convinced yourself that, having then read that 'Preview', that it had been 'properly' posted instead of just 'Previewed', and then perhaps simply moved away from the posting page at that point...

The other high-probability explanation might be that someone made a new post to the thread whilst you were compiling your own - as in those circumstances, even if you were to select the 'Submit' button, the board-software 'kindly' doesn't commit the post, and it shows you the new post that's been created in the time you've been compiling your own, with a view to the board-software presumably being helpful in a 'someone else has posted this in the meantime, is it relevant to your post, and do you now 'STILL' want to 'Submit' your own post' - in those particular cases, you need to select 'Submit' twice for it to actually get submitted, and it's not as clear as it might be that this is the case when this 'new-post' issue rears it's head....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

Sorcery
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Re: Do posts get pulled without explanation?

#216935

Postby Sorcery » April 24th, 2019, 8:15 am

Itsallaguess wrote:
Sorcery wrote:I quoted 3 people's responses to something I had previously posted and took some time to write. I believe I saw it after posting, today I can't.


I've just taken a look through the mod-logs for the past week, and there's been nothing removed of yours at all other than a post-deletion you did yourself due to a duplicate-port having been created. The original post of yours is still there above it (https://tinyurl.com/y3duzbcq).

I suspect (and it's easy done...) that you may have carried out a 'Preview', and perhaps convinced yourself that, having then read that 'Preview', that it had been 'properly' posted instead of just 'Previewed', and then perhaps simply moved away from the posting page at that point...

The other high-probability explanation might be that someone made a new post to the thread whilst you were compiling your own - as in those circumstances, even if you were to select the 'Submit' button, the board-software 'kindly' doesn't commit the post, and it shows you the new post that's been created in the time you've been compiling your own, with a view to the board-software presumably being helpful in a 'someone else has posted this in the meantime, is it relevant to your post, and do you now 'STILL' want to 'Submit' your own post' - in those particular cases, you need to select 'Submit' twice for it to actually get submitted, and it's not as clear as it might be that this is the case when this 'new-post' issue rears it's head....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess


Thanks a lot for having a look Itsallaguess.
You are probably right.
It seems inevitable that whatever it was I will repeat it.
I will save them to notepad in future if it's not a one liner.

Cheers
Steve

GoSeigen
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Re: Do posts get pulled without explanation?

#217141

Postby GoSeigen » April 25th, 2019, 7:04 am

Itsallaguess wrote:The other high-probability explanation might be that someone made a new post to the thread whilst you were compiling your own - as in those circumstances, even if you were to select the 'Submit' button, the board-software 'kindly' doesn't commit the post, and it shows you the new post that's been created in the time you've been compiling your own, with a view to the board-software presumably being helpful in a 'someone else has posted this in the meantime, is it relevant to your post, and do you now 'STILL' want to 'Submit' your own post' - in those particular cases, you need to select 'Submit' twice for it to actually get submitted, and it's not as clear as it might be that this is the case when this 'new-post' issue rears it's head....


I think this is as close to a bug as a feature can get. The problem is it's often barely noticeable that the submission hasn't completed because of intervening posts. There is a brief message to tell you this but otherwise the format of the page is very similar to the one you get when the submission has completed. The main difference is the text box which might alert you to something being amiss, but of course not if you are a new user, or in a hurry, or distracted -- or if the intervening posts are long in which case even the editing box is not visible having scrolled off the bottom of the page.

I'm pretty sure I have lost several posts to this feature/bug. I wonder if it's possible to customise the board software to make it more obvious that your post has not been submitted, e.g. put the warning message in red rather than in the default text colour?


GS
[EDIT: The problem is only exacerbated by the fact that, as a rule, mod deletions are not notified -- so you can never be sure why your post has mysteriously vanished... and either way the text you worked hard on is irretrievable. First world problem, but a warning in red and/or deletion notifications with copy of deleted text would go some way to helping... pipe dream I know ;-)]

Gengulphus
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Re: Do posts get pulled without explanation?

#217274

Postby Gengulphus » April 25th, 2019, 3:30 pm

GoSeigen wrote:[EDIT: The problem is only exacerbated by the fact that, as a rule, mod deletions are not notified -- so you can never be sure why your post has mysteriously vanished... and either way the text you worked hard on is irretrievable. First world problem, but a warning in red and/or deletion notifications with copy of deleted text would go some way to helping... pipe dream I know ;-)]

I wouldn't be all that certain that it is irretrievable. From past moderator posts, I'm pretty sure that the system allows both 'hard' deletes (which really do get rid of posts irretrievably) and 'soft' deletes (which only make them invisible to non-moderators/admins), and also that the moderators usually only 'soft'-delete (I'd guess 'hard' deletes are basically reserved for stuff that they want OFF the system, especially stuff that might get the admins/moderators into legal trouble if found to have been tolerated on the system for any significant length of time after it came to their attention).

So a PM to the moderator who deleted it, asking them to return the source of the deleted post to you by PM (if you know who they are), or a similar request on this board (if you don't), may well stand a decent chance of retrieving it.

Though my pipe dream is that the system were set up to return the source of 'soft'-deleted posts by PM automatically (*). And likewise for returning the pre-edit source if a moderator edits one's post. As things stand, a post of mine could be deleted or edited without my even knowing that it's happened, let alone being able to see what caused it to be done rather than hope I remember what I said correctly (or indeed at all). Which seriously reduces my chances of avoiding doing it again if/when I've done something wrong without realising it...

(*) Possibly only by default, with an opt-out tick box for the moderator. I haven't managed to think of a very good reason why a moderator might choose not to send such a PM, but that of course doesn't mean there isn't one.

Gengulphus

Sorcery
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Re: Do posts get pulled without explanation?

#217765

Postby Sorcery » April 27th, 2019, 5:34 pm

It's just happened to me again! I didn't follow my own advice about saving to notepad. :(
Another reply (in this case the climate protest thread). A long reply was typed and when I tried to preview it, found I was logged out, re-logged in and there was the text I was quoting minus all the text I had spent around 60 minutes working on. Could not retrieve the text by stepping back using the browser <- key.
I would suggest if it's possible that users are not logged out when they are in the middle of a reply.

csearle
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Re: Do posts get pulled without explanation?

#217793

Postby csearle » April 27th, 2019, 8:51 pm

Gengulphus wrote:I wouldn't be all that certain that it is irretrievable. From past moderator posts, I'm pretty sure that the system allows both 'hard' deletes (which really do get rid of posts irretrievably) and 'soft' deletes (which only make them invisible to non-moderators/admins), and also that the moderators usually only 'soft'-delete (I'd guess 'hard' deletes are basically reserved for stuff that they want OFF the system, especially stuff that might get the admins/moderators into legal trouble if found to have been tolerated on the system for any significant length of time after it came to their attention).
Yes your understanding is correct. We humble mods can soft-delete a post, which we can "undelete" if necessary. This is all we can do. The hard delete is reserved for admins and possibly for our one super-mod, RS. Regards, Chris.

redsturgeon
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Re: Do posts get pulled without explanation?

#218067

Postby redsturgeon » April 29th, 2019, 9:05 am

csearle wrote:
Gengulphus wrote:I wouldn't be all that certain that it is irretrievable. From past moderator posts, I'm pretty sure that the system allows both 'hard' deletes (which really do get rid of posts irretrievably) and 'soft' deletes (which only make them invisible to non-moderators/admins), and also that the moderators usually only 'soft'-delete (I'd guess 'hard' deletes are basically reserved for stuff that they want OFF the system, especially stuff that might get the admins/moderators into legal trouble if found to have been tolerated on the system for any significant length of time after it came to their attention).
Yes your understanding is correct. We humble mods can soft-delete a post, which we can "undelete" if necessary. This is all we can do. The hard delete is reserved for admins and possibly for our one super-mod, RS. Regards, Chris.


Yes Chris, you are correct I can hard delete. If there is some blatant spam or a simple duplicate post or a soft delete has hung around for months cluttering up the place (mods can still see evidence of soft deleted posts) then I will hard delete.

John

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Re: Do posts get pulled without explanation?

#218098

Postby dspp » April 29th, 2019, 10:19 am

A quick note in response to the original question.

Yes, sometimes posts do get deleted without explanation.

In my case I will ordinarily write a PM to a person who is an infrequent cause for Moderation. If however they are an obvious spammer, or a repeat offender transgressing a known boundary, then I just hit delete and move on. Ordinarily my attention is drawn by an alert, and of course the alert gets reviewed to see if it was justified.

If a post is a mix of acceptable and unacceptable then I may edit it to remove whatever is the issue, and if so I will ordinarily put a modbox up. But if time is short, and especially if it is a repeat offender, then a straightforward delete can be used.

If a poster is not reading their PMs then they don't generally get as much shrift on subsequent occasions. There are six unread PMs sitting in my outbox ........

A reason why time can be short is because responses can pile up fairly quickly in some areas on some topics. So sometimes it is better and/or necessary to just "delete all". It is disappointing when that has to be done.

Mods are human and so whatever is the borderline for "delete with notification" vs "delete without notification" vs "edit & modbox" will inevitably vary somewhat between us.

regards, dspp

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Re: Do posts get pulled without explanation?

#218142

Postby melonfool » April 29th, 2019, 12:59 pm

If there is some way to amend the software I would certainly appreciate it.

I can't think that I get any additional use from knowing something else has been posted that I cannot just review when I have posted. And I have lost many posts. Just this morning I thought I had posted something only to go back to the board to look for replies and find it sitting there telling me a new post had come in between so it had not posted.

As GS above says, the page you land on just looks the same, it lands on the most recent post, not your own preview/posting box (maybe this depends on the size of the screen?) so it's easy not to notice it has not posted. And, yes, on some devices and some browsers the back button will work but by no means on all.

Mel

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Re: Do posts get pulled without explanation?

#218197

Postby Gengulphus » April 29th, 2019, 4:51 pm

melonfool wrote:If there is some way to amend the software I would certainly appreciate it.

I can't think that I get any additional use from knowing something else has been posted that I cannot just review when I have posted. And I have lost many posts. Just this morning I thought I had posted something only to go back to the board to look for replies and find it sitting there telling me a new post had come in between so it had not posted.

As GS above says, the page you land on just looks the same, it lands on the most recent post, not your own preview/posting box (maybe this depends on the size of the screen?) so it's easy not to notice it has not posted. And, yes, on some devices and some browsers the back button will work but by no means on all.

A work-around you might try is to get into the habit of previewing, checking that the post looks OK, then (if it does) preview again and submit as quickly as possible afterwards. It's still possible for a new post to slip in between the second preview and the submission, preventing the submission from going through, but it has to hit a very short time window to do that, so it shouldn't happen at all frequently. And the system will alert you to any new posts that come in before either of the previews on that preview and not do so again for any later preview or submission. It's not perfect - it has the downsides that you'll sometimes not be alerted to a new post when you might have wished to be alerted to, and that it's more clicks / page loads, but you don't need to make any decisions in the middle of the sequence, which I at least find is a property that makes a sequence quite easy to make a habit. (E.g. ctrl-A / ctrl-C / click Preview and ctrl-A / ctrl-C / click Submit to take a copy of posts before exposing them to the "website too busy" problem discussed on some other threads have become such a habit for me.) YMMV, of course...

Gengulphus

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Re: Do posts get pulled without explanation?

#218254

Postby melonfool » April 29th, 2019, 7:14 pm

I know Gengulphus, but I forget, or I don't have time, or I can't do it easily on the phone etc etc.

As far as I have ever been able to tell, the phone does not have all the Ctrl commands.

Mel

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Re: Do posts get pulled without explanation?

#218257

Postby swill453 » April 29th, 2019, 7:33 pm

melonfool wrote:As far as I have ever been able to tell, the phone does not have all the Ctrl commands.

The equivalent on an Android phone would be to do a long press in the composition box, choose Select All from the little menu that pops up, then choose Copy from the next pop-up menu.

Scott.

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Re: Do posts get pulled without explanation?

#218270

Postby Gengulphus » April 29th, 2019, 8:31 pm

melonfool wrote:I know Gengulphus, but I forget, or I don't have time, or I can't do it easily on the phone etc etc.

As far as I have ever been able to tell, the phone does not have all the Ctrl commands.

Just to be clear, the bit about ctrl-A, ctrl-C, Preview/Submit was an example of me developing a habit and it being easy to develop because they're fixed sequences, with no if-then-else decisions in them. I wasn't suggesting it as a work-around for your problem, and the work-around I did suggest for it didn't involve ctrl-characters at all. (And by the way, you can fairly deduce that I simply don't try to use TLF on a phone - far too fiddly for composing the sort of posts I often want to post!)

I do agree about forgetting being a problem - I lost quite a few posts to the "website too busy" problem due to forgetting to use ctrl-A, ctrl-C, Preview/Submit while I was trying to develop the habit!

Gengulphus

melonfool
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Re: Do posts get pulled without explanation?

#218271

Postby melonfool » April 29th, 2019, 8:44 pm

Yes, I wasn't putting the two comments together particularly.

I use the phone more than anything. At home while watching TV I sometimes use the laptop, but in bed, at work, on the train, at other people's houses, it's all the phone.

And I don't really post on TLF enough to develop a specific habit.

I just think there is little gained from this 'feature' of stopping you from posting if another post has been made, and a lot to lose - many people seem to have lost posts. Obviously it's got better over the years as people have got used to it.

Mel


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