Donate to Remove ads

Got a credit Card? use our Credit Card & Finance Calculators

Thanks to GSVsowhat,johnstevens77,BusyBumbleBee,88V8,Anonymous, for Donating to support the site

People's Vote (on HYP boards)

Raise issues with Admin (Stooz, Clariman, Redsturgeon) e.g. alert to something important on the site or ask Admin about a moderation decision. You will be answered, but there is no response time guarantee.
absolutezero
Lemon Slice
Posts: 404
Joined: November 17th, 2016, 8:17 pm
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 70 times

People's Vote (on HYP boards)

#188351

Postby absolutezero » December 20th, 2018, 1:58 pm

Genuine suggestion here:
Maybe we should have a 'People's Vote' on the rule of 'thou shalt not discuss selling in an HYP on the HYP board'....
What do the Mods say about that?

Raptor
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1658
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 1:39 pm
Has thanked: 148 times
Been thanked: 307 times

Re: People's Vote (on HYP boards)

#188356

Postby Raptor » December 20th, 2018, 2:09 pm

As far as I am aware there is nothing in the "guidelines" on HYP Practical about "selling" other than the
A long term buy and hold (LTBH) of these shares is envisaged.
.

"tinkering" or "pinkering" is covered, IMO, with
The construction, management and performance of HYPs is acceptable.


What is definitely "off topic", IMO, for HYP is those that sell for capital gain rather then balancing, divi cutter, corporate options, CGT considerations and bed & isa to avoid tax. There maybe other reasons that are "accepted" for reasons to discuss selling, I am thinking along the lines of Carillion, Utilities but, again IMO, these would be better served on Strategies board.

Raptor.

PinkDalek
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4137
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 1:12 pm
Has thanked: 950 times
Been thanked: 1079 times

Re: People's Vote (on HYP boards)

#188360

Postby PinkDalek » December 20th, 2018, 2:18 pm

Raptor wrote:
"tinkering" or "pinkering" is covered ...


I don’t “Pinker”. Maybe, just maybe, you were thinking of another descriptor. ;)

Pink(er)Dalek

absolutezero
Lemon Slice
Posts: 404
Joined: November 17th, 2016, 8:17 pm
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 70 times

Re: People's Vote (on HYP boards)

#188361

Postby absolutezero » December 20th, 2018, 2:18 pm

Raptor wrote:As far as I am aware there is nothing in the "guidelines" on HYP Practical about "selling" other than the
A long term buy and hold (LTBH) of these shares is envisaged.
.

"tinkering" or "pinkering" is covered, IMO, with
The construction, management and performance of HYPs is acceptable.


What is definitely "off topic", IMO, for HYP is those that sell for capital gain rather then balancing, divi cutter, corporate options, CGT considerations and bed & isa to avoid tax. There maybe other reasons that are "accepted" for reasons to discuss selling, I am thinking along the lines of Carillion, Utilities but, again IMO, these would be better served on Strategies board.

Raptor.

Surely a HYP is what it says. A portfolio of high yielding shares.
How people manage it shouldn't be a factor in whether it's a HYP or not.

If something shoots up in price, lowering its yield, and they sell it and put the money into a higher yielding share... I don't see why that should be such a big deal.

Lootman
Lemon Half
Posts: 5797
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:58 pm
Has thanked: 34 times
Been thanked: 966 times

Re: People's Vote (on HYP boards)

#188372

Postby Lootman » December 20th, 2018, 2:35 pm

Raptor wrote:As far as I am aware there is nothing in the "guidelines" on HYP Practical about "selling" other than the
A long term buy and hold (LTBH) of these shares is envisaged.
.
"tinkering" or "pinkering" is covered, IMO, with
The construction, management and performance of HYPs is acceptable.

What is definitely "off topic", IMO, for HYP is those that sell for capital gain rather then balancing, divi cutter, corporate options, CGT considerations and bed & isa to avoid tax. There maybe other reasons that are "accepted" for reasons to discuss selling, I am thinking along the lines of Carillion, Utilities but, again IMO, these would be better served on Strategies board.

Corporate actions can lead to what are effectively mandatory sales, or forced reinvestment in another security that may not qualify for a HYP. So it has to be reasonable to discuss those cases.

Otherwise you seem to be arguing that it is not the sale itself that makes a comment off-topic but rather the motivation for it. So if I announce that I am selling share XYZ as part of a tinkering or re-balancing exercise then it's OK. But if I am selling a HYP holding to pay for a cruise then it's not UK.

I am not sure how reasonable it is for moderators to infer motive in all cases. And it's easy enough for someone to finesse their reasons for selling to ensure it's on the accepted list. I really think this is getting petty and silly.

Selling is an important part of any investment methodology. If I need to sell a couple of holdings a year to fund my lifestyle in retirement, my portfolio does not in some way cease to be a HYP.

I also think that tax considerations are relevant, such as the changes in the way that dividends are taxed in the last couple of years, and the effect that might have on how you run a HYP.

Some proportion and flexibility here, perhaps?

Raptor
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1658
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 1:39 pm
Has thanked: 148 times
Been thanked: 307 times

Re: People's Vote (on HYP boards)

#188382

Postby Raptor » December 20th, 2018, 3:00 pm

Sorry, yes I forgot about "forced" selling. I sold a good slice of mine a few years back to cover building work, though this did allow me to rebalance and get rid of a few "small" holdings. I was thinking more along the lines of selling to buy another share, IT, ETF etc. For no apparent HYP reason other than capital gain.

Raptor.

csearle
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1939
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 2:24 pm
Has thanked: 1160 times
Been thanked: 461 times

Re: People's Vote (on HYP boards)

#188494

Postby csearle » December 20th, 2018, 8:45 pm

absolutezero wrote:Surely a HYP is what it says. A portfolio of high yielding shares.
This is I believe where the misunderstanding lies. The HYP board was set up to accommodate a fairly specific strategy (see the board's guidelines for an explanation). That strategy is called HYP. For a more general discussion on "a portfolio of high yielding shares" you need this more general board.

Regards,
Chris

absolutezero
Lemon Slice
Posts: 404
Joined: November 17th, 2016, 8:17 pm
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 70 times

Re: People's Vote (on HYP boards)

#188532

Postby absolutezero » December 21st, 2018, 12:14 am

csearle wrote:
absolutezero wrote:Surely a HYP is what it says. A portfolio of high yielding shares.
This is I believe where the misunderstanding lies. The HYP board was set up to accommodate a fairly specific strategy (see the board's guidelines for an explanation). That strategy is called HYP. For a more general discussion on "a portfolio of high yielding shares" you need this more general board.

Regards,
Chris

This is getting a bit People's Front of Judea/Judean People's Front...

Charlottesquare
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1028
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:22 pm
Has thanked: 6 times
Been thanked: 102 times

Re: People's Vote (on HYP boards)

#188845

Postby Charlottesquare » December 22nd, 2018, 5:29 pm

Given that what the HYP board is for has been done to death (well it was on MF) and is I believe the reason for having the two boards, it is surely not too much to ask to respect the pure HYP adherents on what is in effect their board.

I do not follow HYP in its pure form, I tried it but it was not for me, and I am personally more an international IT yield adherent (with the odd low/no yielder mixed in) but I can respect the wishes of those who have made their choice re approach and really do not want, what is their board, cluttered with selling discussions and other diversions.

My 10p worth as a non HYP follower.

jackdaww
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1086
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:53 am
Has thanked: 982 times
Been thanked: 160 times

Re: People's Vote (on HYP boards)

#188847

Postby jackdaww » December 22nd, 2018, 5:42 pm

csearle wrote:
absolutezero wrote:Surely a HYP is what it says. A portfolio of high yielding shares.
This is I believe where the misunderstanding lies. The HYP board was set up to accommodate a fairly specific strategy (see the board's guidelines for an explanation). That strategy is called HYP. For a more general discussion on "a portfolio of high yielding shares" you need this more general board.

Regards,
Chris


================================

who says so ?

PinkDalek
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4137
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 1:12 pm
Has thanked: 950 times
Been thanked: 1079 times

Re: People's Vote (on HYP boards)

#188857

Postby PinkDalek » December 22nd, 2018, 6:57 pm

jackdaww wrote:
csearle wrote:
absolutezero wrote:Surely a HYP is what it says. A portfolio of high yielding shares.
This is I believe where the misunderstanding lies. The HYP board was set up to accommodate a fairly specific strategy (see the board's guidelines for an explanation). That strategy is called HYP. For a more general discussion on "a portfolio of high yielding shares" you need this more general board.

Regards,
Chris


================================

who says so ?



Which part are you querying, specifically? If it is the "a portfolio of high yielding shares" then I'd agree it is not in the Guidance and maybe shouldn't have been in parentheses.

That being the BOARD GUIDANCE viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8651 that was posted over a year ago under the name of one of the two Administrators memberlist.php?mode=group at The Lemon Fool. "Signed" Thank you for your co-operation Stooz and Clariman following a large number of repetitive threads on the same subject.

You know, the two that gave us a bolt-hole when the TMF discussion boards were closing.

Is it really too hard to abide by their Guidance, in the same way as writing without any upper case letters seems to be the norm in some parts nowadays?

csearle
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1939
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 2:24 pm
Has thanked: 1160 times
Been thanked: 461 times

Re: People's Vote (on HYP boards)

#188866

Postby csearle » December 22nd, 2018, 8:35 pm

jackdaww wrote:who says so ?
I think the " csearle wrote:" tells you that I said it. C.

Lootman
Lemon Half
Posts: 5797
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:58 pm
Has thanked: 34 times
Been thanked: 966 times

Re: People's Vote (on HYP boards)

#188875

Postby Lootman » December 22nd, 2018, 9:25 pm

PinkDalek wrote: the BOARD GUIDANCE viewtopic.php?f=15&t=8651 that was posted over a year ago under the name of one of the two Administrators memberlist.php?mode=group at The Lemon Fool. "Signed" Thank you for your co-operation Stooz and Clariman following a large number of repetitive threads on the same subject.

You know, the two that gave us a bolt-hole when the TMF discussion boards were closing.

Is it really too hard to abide by their Guidance, in the same way as writing without any upper case letters seems to be the norm in some parts nowadays?

I don't think the issue is that it is "too hard" to abide by the guidelines.

I do suspect that it is more difficult for newcomers to determine the scope of HYP practical issues because (as I have often said) HYP really has no life outside of TMF/TLF. It's not something you can just google to learn what it is. Unlike other investment strategies, pretty much everything that can be known about HYP has to be somewhat painfully gleaned from the pages of TMF and TLF. So there is a learning curve to climb before one can understand the topic well enough to know what is outside the scope of the topic.

Sometimes people break guidelines because they have no respect for the authority that makes the rules. I got to that point on TMF, for instance. But I doubt that anyone here thinks that way about our co-sponsors. A cuddlier and more benign pair it is hard to conceive of. So let's rule that out.

The other reason to not "abide by the Guidelines" is as an act of civil disobedience. Notwithstanding HYP's merits it clearly engenders a good deal of both fierce loyalty and hearty repugnance. This is hardly new - there were big fights about it a decade ago on TMF and we see it here now. To dismiss the critics as mere "trolls" misses the point. For whatever reason the Technical Analysis board (a topic which many view as a form of voodoo) does not attract such discord. Nor any other investment board. In fact the only board that causes more moderation workload than the HY boards is "Polite Discussions" (so we were told).

So there is a problem and simply dismissing that as the work of devious and destructive trolls somehow doesn't capture the essence of the ongoing strife. I don't know that I have a solution other than merging the two HY boards; I see the somewhat arbitrary split as at least a part of the problem. I just don't think we can blame all the problems on willful miscreants. There is a more structural issue that underlies the malaise, and superficial attempts to fix that seem to never work.

PinkDalek
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 4137
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 1:12 pm
Has thanked: 950 times
Been thanked: 1079 times

Re: People's Vote (on HYP boards)

#188893

Postby PinkDalek » December 23rd, 2018, 12:27 am

Lootman wrote:Notwithstanding HYP's merits it clearly engenders a good deal of both fierce loyalty and hearty repugnance.


So why on earth don't those who find it heartily repugnant ignore the place or stop writing about its perceived faults, having already written volumes on the subject for at least 10 years?

To dismiss the critics as mere "trolls" misses the point.


It is you who've introduced the description, placing Trolls in parentheses to make it look like you were quoting someone on this thread, and then saying such a description misses the point.

So there is a problem and simply dismissing that as the work of devious and destructive trolls somehow doesn't capture the essence of the ongoing strife.


So who has said there are "devious and destructive trolls", other than you?

absolutezero
Lemon Slice
Posts: 404
Joined: November 17th, 2016, 8:17 pm
Has thanked: 13 times
Been thanked: 70 times

Re: People's Vote (on HYP boards)

#188994

Postby absolutezero » December 23rd, 2018, 6:47 pm

For what it's worth I don't even consciously register what is in which board.

I always click the 'quick links' on the top left and then go for 'unread posts'.
If I want to comment I do so without looking whether it's HYP Practical, Polite Discussions or whatever.

So when I get modded I just shrug my shoulders but see it as unnecessarily stifling debate because of the HYP "ultras" (to use a phrase that seems current.)

The whole 'thou shalt not sell' thing is just, I feel, a bit silly.

Lootman
Lemon Half
Posts: 5797
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 3:58 pm
Has thanked: 34 times
Been thanked: 966 times

Re: People's Vote (on HYP boards)

#189007

Postby Lootman » December 23rd, 2018, 9:34 pm

PinkDalek wrote:
Lootman wrote:Notwithstanding HYP's merits it clearly engenders a good deal of both fierce loyalty and hearty repugnance.

So why on earth don't those who find it heartily repugnant ignore the place or stop writing about its perceived faults, having already written volumes on the subject for at least 10 years?

You'd have to ask them. I was merely speculating on three possible motives and then dismissing two of them.

PinkDalek wrote:
To dismiss the critics as mere "trolls" misses the point.

It is you who've introduced the description, placing Trolls in parentheses to make it look like you were quoting someone on this thread, and then saying such a description misses the point.

I put that word in quotes not because someone had used that word earlier in this thread. As far I know they did not. But rather that that word seems like a reasonable paraphrasing of various allegations that the problems on the HY boards are due to mischievous Lemons who should know better. I put the word in quotes because I do not believe it applies, and that it can be explained in other ways.

PinkDalek wrote:
So there is a problem and simply dismissing that as the work of devious and destructive trolls somehow doesn't capture the essence of the ongoing strife.

So who has said there are "devious and destructive trolls", other than you?

See above. There is a tendency in some quarters to suggest that the only problem with the HY boards is bad behaviour on the part of some. Yet I suspect if I asked you to explain why there is bad behaviour on the only board that has more problems - Polite Discussions - I feel sure that you'd claim it was because politics by definition is polarising. It is a structural risk of debating ideology. Yet when it is suggested that the HY boards structure, titles and definitions are also structurally polarising, then you demur. Why?

And I am not the only one, as you suggest. In fact it is never me who starts these seemingly endless topics about confusion on the HY boards. Nor do I believe that I stand accused of disrupting said boards. I merely comment when the matter arises, which it does uncomfortably often.

melonfool
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2883
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:18 am
Has thanked: 1212 times
Been thanked: 700 times

Re: People's Vote (on HYP boards)

#189025

Postby melonfool » December 24th, 2018, 12:46 am

The only reason it keeps being discussed is because people keep continuing the discussion with the same tired arguments, despite having pretty clear guidelines and having been told inumerable times that it will not be changed.

Putting the two boards together makes no sense, they are entirely different.

I don't think it's unreasonable at all to refer to people who continually rehash the same old stock objections as trolls. What else can they possibly be?

Mel

jackdaww
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 1086
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:53 am
Has thanked: 982 times
Been thanked: 160 times

Re: People's Vote (on HYP boards)

#189038

Postby jackdaww » December 24th, 2018, 8:06 am

melonfool wrote:The only reason it keeps being discussed is because people keep continuing the discussion with the same tired arguments, despite having pretty clear guidelines and having been told inumerable times that it will not be changed.

Putting the two boards together makes no sense, they are entirely different.

I don't think it's unreasonable at all to refer to people who continually rehash the same old stock objections as trolls. What else can they possibly be?

Mel


==============================

can this be a moderator speaking?

:x

melonfool
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2883
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:18 am
Has thanked: 1212 times
Been thanked: 700 times

Re: People's Vote (on HYP boards)

#189077

Postby melonfool » December 24th, 2018, 11:32 am

jackdaww wrote:
melonfool wrote:The only reason it keeps being discussed is because people keep continuing the discussion with the same tired arguments, despite having pretty clear guidelines and having been told inumerable times that it will not be changed.

Putting the two boards together makes no sense, they are entirely different.

I don't think it's unreasonable at all to refer to people who continually rehash the same old stock objections as trolls. What else can they possibly be?

Mel


==============================

can this be a moderator speaking?

:x


I have no idea if it can be. I am not a moderator, so it isn't.

If you have an issue with a post, report it.

Mel

melonfool
Lemon Quarter
Posts: 2883
Joined: November 4th, 2016, 11:18 am
Has thanked: 1212 times
Been thanked: 700 times

Re: People's Vote (on HYP boards)

#189078

Postby melonfool » December 24th, 2018, 11:34 am

Oh, and just to add, it was these kinds of snide semi bullying comments that partly led to me deciding not to be a moderator any more.

Mel


Return to “Room 101”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest