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Dividends from debt

Analysing companies' finances and value from their financial statements using ratios and formulae
UncleEbenezer
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Dividends from debt

#182169

Postby UncleEbenezer » November 22nd, 2018, 12:50 am

Should I let it bother me when I read:
https://www.investegate.co.uk/article.aspx?id=201811210700039657H wrote:Net debt increased from £262.2m to £334.7m, mainly as a result of the £100.1m special dividend paid in April 2018, leaving leverage at the year end broadly in line with the prior year at 1.1x Net Debt: EBITDA.

They're proposing another special dividend next April, but this fuddyduddy shareholder would feel more comfortable if that money were used to pay down debt. The ordinary dividend is modest but growing at a good rate, and reducing debt would leave it much more secure for the next downturn - whenever that may be.

TheMotorcycleBoy
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Re: Dividends from debt

#182178

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » November 22nd, 2018, 6:27 am

UncleEbenezer wrote:Should I let it bother me when I read:
https://www.investegate.co.uk/article.aspx?id=201811210700039657H wrote:Net debt increased from £262.2m to £334.7m, mainly as a result of the £100.1m special dividend paid in April 2018, leaving leverage at the year end broadly in line with the prior year at 1.1x Net Debt: EBITDA.

They're proposing another special dividend next April, but this fuddyduddy shareholder would feel more comfortable if that money were used to pay down debt. The ordinary dividend is modest but growing at a good rate, and reducing debt would leave it much more secure for the next downturn - whenever that may be.

What firm is that, out of interest?

In my very limited experience 1.1x Net debt/EBITDA is not massively leveraged (Next NXT is about that, and Dominos Pizza DOM is similar). Whether the dividend is a good or bad thing will also depend on the firms profitability, as well as it's "Interest Coverage" - i.e. the ratio of operating profit divided by annual net interest charges.

Also, have you looked at the free cash flow analysis for this firm? It may be helpful, but from what you've said in your OP, it does at first glance, seem like the firm is paying for the divs on the never never. Could be a cause for concern if profitability (operating margin and ROCE) and interest coverage are low.

Another thing that's worth checking out, if you wish to pursue this further, is to download the most recent annual report PDF, and read the notes on the debt. The obvious search words being "loan", "debt" or "interest"; but another one is "covenant". We found when we analysed Dairy Crest (DCG), which we did *not* then buy, that there is a covenant associated with their debt. I don't know the full legal definition, but essentially, I think it means that the lender has a contractual agreement to foreclose if an interest payment is missed.

HTH
Matt

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Re: Dividends from debt

#182204

Postby Alaric » November 22nd, 2018, 8:49 am

UncleEbenezer wrote:Should I let it bother me


If you are a total return investor, I think it should as it rather indicates the dividends aren't coming from profits, but from running down the net worth of the Company. Investors who ignore capital value might be less concerned, although eventually the Company is going to run out of borrowing powers unless it can repay these loans by asset sales or profits.

UncleEbenezer
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Re: Dividends from debt

#182224

Postby UncleEbenezer » November 22nd, 2018, 9:39 am

Thanks both for your thoughts.
TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:What firm is that, out of interest?

SSPG. The URL I quoted from is its annual report. It's a company that's grown rapidly. Before yesterday (when it was sharply down) it had triple-bagged in four years since I called it as a GARP share on TMF. See viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5892

From elsewhere in the report:
https://www.investegate.co.uk/article.aspx?id=201811210700039657H wrote:Underlying net finance costs decreased by £2.0m year-on-year to £15.6m, primarily due to the reduction in interest rates following an 'Amend and Extend' of the Group's debt facilities in October 2017. Reported net finance costs were £15.2m, £4.4m lower year-on-year due to the lower interest rates and the revaluation of the financial liability to acquire the remaining 16% interest in TFS (£2.0m reduction compared to the prior year).

Looking forward to 2019, net debt will reflect the payment of the proposed c. £150m special dividend and the final tranche of the consideration for the acquisition of the remaining 16% stake in TFS in India of approximately £21m. Correspondingly, the net finance cost is expected to increase to c. £18m.

Kind-of smells like our government's debt, and the spurious claims of reducing it by measuring it against the boom side of the economic cycle. Except, these special dividends seem even more unnecessary than the government's inadequately-funded pork-barrel.
TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:In my very limited experience 1.1x Net debt/EBITDA is not massively leveraged (Next NXT is about that, and Dominos Pizza DOM is similar). Whether the dividend is a good or bad thing will also depend on the firms profitability, as well as it's "Interest Coverage" - i.e. the ratio of operating profit divided by annual net interest charges.

Revenue and underlying operating profit look comfortable, with rises of 20% and 70% respectively - albeit with one-offs in there (notably an acquisition the previous year). The report acknowledges favourable circumstances in several countries, including recoveries from big-impact events.
Alaric wrote:If you are a total return investor, I think it should as it rather indicates the dividends aren't coming from profits, but from running down the net worth of the Company.

The company is growing in Good Times. What bothers me is that this cocktail of special dividends and rising debt is ignoring Pharoah's Dream.

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Re: Dividends from debt

#182273

Postby TheMotorcycleBoy » November 22nd, 2018, 11:52 am

UncleEbenezer wrote:...Before yesterday (when it was sharply down) it had triple-bagged in four years since I called it as a GARP share on TMF. See viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5892

Hi UncleEbenezer,

Definitely not wishing to de-rail the thread here! But can you explain to the relative newbie that I am, what you peeps mean by "double" and "triple" bagging?

Is double bagging when a share you bought once upon a time rises to more than twice it's purchase price?

e.g. you buy for 200p, and now it's at 450p (i.e. up by 125%), is that holding now known as "double-bagged" ?

thanks Matt

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Re: Dividends from debt

#182276

Postby Dod101 » November 22nd, 2018, 12:04 pm

They are simply indulging in a bit of financial engineering. Not all debt is bad and it may be that at the moment interest on the debt is so low that it would be silly not to have some or even maintain it at current levels (as a percentage of net assets say) Obviously as you know, if a company can make more money from investing borrowings than the cost of borrowing that may be a perfectly good way to finance the company.

Of course it may be that there is a major shareholder (I do not know the company) who would simply like to have a special dividend.

I would take a good look at the Annual Report and see what they have to say to justify what they are doing. Actually just done that. They say the special reflects their desire to 'maintain an efficient Balance Sheet' That is basically what I said above. They also have a number of high profile institutional investors and all in all it looks OK without delving into ratios and so on.

Dod
Last edited by Dod101 on November 22nd, 2018, 12:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

UncleEbenezer
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Re: Dividends from debt

#182279

Postby UncleEbenezer » November 22nd, 2018, 12:08 pm

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:
UncleEbenezer wrote:...Before yesterday (when it was sharply down) it had triple-bagged in four years since I called it as a GARP share on TMF. See viewtopic.php?f=8&t=5892

Hi UncleEbenezer,

Definitely not wishing to de-rail the thread here! But can you explain to the relative newbie that I am, what you peeps mean by "double" and "triple" bagging?

thanks Matt

Yep.

I bought SSPG at two pounds thirtysomething. Last week they nudged above seven squids. That's a triple-bagger (and with modest dividends on the way).

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Re: Dividends from debt

#182280

Postby UncleEbenezer » November 22nd, 2018, 12:11 pm

Dod101 wrote:They are simply indulging in a bit of financial engineering. Not all debt is bad and it may be that at the moment interest on the debt is so low that it would be silly not to have some or even maintain it at current levels (as a percentage of net assets say) Obviously as you know, if a company can make more money from investing borrowings than the cost of borrowing that may be a perfectly good way to finance the company.

If they were borrowing to invest, I'd entirely agree.

Borrowing to pay out seems more dubious. Unnecessary risk.
I would take a good look at the Annual Report and see what they have to say to justify what they are doing.
Dod

That's kind-of what I'm wrestling with. Thanks for your thoughts.

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Re: Dividends from debt

#182348

Postby Gengulphus » November 22nd, 2018, 4:40 pm

TheMotorcycleBoy wrote:Is double bagging when a share you bought once upon a time rises to more than twice it's purchase price?

Yes.

Gengulphus

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Re: Dividends from debt

#182369

Postby Gengulphus » November 22nd, 2018, 6:22 pm

Dod101 wrote:They are simply indulging in a bit of financial engineering. Not all debt is bad and it may be that at the moment interest on the debt is so low that it would be silly not to have some or even maintain it at current levels (as a percentage of net assets say) Obviously as you know, if a company can make more money from investing borrowings than the cost of borrowing that may be a perfectly good way to finance the company.
...
I would take a good look at the Annual Report and see what they have to say to justify what they are doing. Actually just done that. They say the special reflects their desire to 'maintain an efficient Balance Sheet' That is basically what I said above. ...

Indeed, but I'd recommend treating use of the phrase "efficient balance sheet" (by any company, not by any means just this one) as containing a large element of spin. The spin is that efficiency sounds unreservedly good, but taking on debt is definitely not unreservedly good...

If I wanted to spin it the opposite way, I might use a phrase like "crumbling cliff-edge balance sheet". Specifically, standing near the edge of a cliff can be rewarding, but if the edge is crumbling, there's a danger that you're standing on a piece when it crumbles, resulting in anything from just having to scramble your way rather laboriously back to safety through various degrees of injury to a fatal outcome... And the closer you stand to the edge, the smaller and more likely the bit of crumbling needed to cause such things to happen.

Dropping the analogy, the "crumbling" associated with debt has two main forms: the company's earnings declining as a result of 'challenging' trading conditions, unexpected cost increases or such like, and interest rates rising (which might not affect the company for some time if it's taken on the debt at a fixed rate, but will eventually if it cannot pay off the debt by the time it matures because it will then have to borrow again at prevailing interest rates (*)). They also tend to feed off each other in various 'vicious circle' ways - for instance, higher interest rates mean more interest subtracted from trading profits and so lower earnings, lower earnings cause the company's credit rating to drop so that it can only get loans at higher interest rates, or even cause it to fail to meet loan covenants, allowing a now-low-rate fixed-rate loan to be called in prematurely and have to be refinanced at a higher rate earlier than expected. A company can find itself in serious trouble quite quickly if those vicious circles are allowed to develop...

To be clear, I'm not presenting "crumbling cliff-edge balance sheet" as a superior alternative to "efficient balance sheet": it's just as bad IMHO, just in the negative-spin direction rather than positive-spin. The view one should take should look at debt both from the point of view of it increasing profitability (provided it's taken on at a sufficiently low interest rate, but that isn't usually a problem for debt taken on when times are good) and from the point of view of it increasing risk. Various ratios such as gearing, interest cover and debt multiple give rather crude measures of that risk, or one can do more detailed studies such as looking at the debt maturity profile to get a somewhat less crude picture of it. (Though don't expect to get anything really precise from company accounts alone, since more widely-based factors such as downturns in the company's market and government interest rate policy are likely to affect it...)

So basically, I think it's a good idea to treat company claims of having an efficient balance sheet as warnings that it might have an over-efficient balance sheet that carries excessive risk, raising the question of whether it does. Not a particularly natural question, since there simply isn't such a thing as being over-efficient for many uses of the word - but there definitely is for its use to describe balance sheets.

(*) Or do an equity fundraising such as a rights issue, open offer or placing - but that tends to be hard or even impossible for a company that is struggling.

Gengulphus

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Re: Dividends from debt

#182434

Postby PinkDalek » November 22nd, 2018, 11:56 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:Should I let it bother me when I read:
https://www.investegate.co.uk/article.a ... 700039657H ...


Merely posting to insert a space etc, such that the url from the OP is now clickable (hopefully).


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