The Lemon Fool

Query:
X, Y & Z are brothers.

X1 and Y1 are 1st cousins (X & Y’s respective children)
X2 is X1’s Niece.
All 3 are on Ancestry.

A is illegitimate and has popped up on Ancestry wanting to know who her father is.

She shows as X1’s 1st cousin, Y1’s 1st or 2nd Cousin and X2’s 2nd or 3rd cousin.
Y1 also shows as X2’s 2nd or 3rd cousin.

What relation is A? We have narrowed it down to someone on Z’s side as being her father. A thinks X1 is her great Aunt but how would that be possible? X1 thinks A is Z’s grand daughter. X2 thinks possibly she is Z’s daughter. Z has long since died and had form for playing away as does at least 1 of his sons.

To compound matters B is on Ancestry and thinks his mother is Z’s daughter from an affair. He’s also showing as X1’s 1st cousin & X2’s 2nd - 3rd cousin (not sure what B is showing as for Y1). Apparently B is showing as A’s 1st cousin as well.

Any ideas who could be A’s father?

...Sounds like one for Games, Puzzles and Riddles, to me.

JessUK98 wrote:X2 is X1’s Niece.

Who are X2's parents? Where do they fit in the tree?

genou wrote:

JessUK98 wrote:X2 is X1’s Niece.

Who are X2's parents? Where do they fit in the tree?

X2’s dad is X1’s brother. So also Y1’s 1st cousin

JessUK98 wrote:Query:
X, Y & Z are brothers.

X1 and Y1 are 1st cousins (X & Y’s respective children)
X2 is X1’s Niece.
All 3 are on Ancestry.

A is illegitimate and has popped up on Ancestry wanting to know who her father is.

She shows as X1’s 1st cousin, Y1’s 1st or 2nd Cousin and X2’s 2nd or 3rd cousin.
Y1 also shows as X2’s 2nd or 3rd cousin.

What relation is A? We have narrowed it down to someone on Z’s side as being her father. A thinks X1 is her great Aunt but how would that be possible? X1 thinks A is Z’s grand daughter. X2 thinks possibly she is Z’s daughter. Z has long since died and had form for playing away as does at least 1 of his sons.

To compound matters B is on Ancestry and thinks his mother is Z’s daughter from an affair. He’s also showing as X1’s 1st cousin & X2’s 2nd - 3rd cousin (not sure what B is showing as for Y1). Apparently B is showing as A’s 1st cousin as well.

Any ideas who could be A’s father?

If A and X1 are first cousins, then A's parent is a sibling of X1. Which would make X1's sibling also a first cousin, so that X2 would be A's first cousin once removed. Y1 and X2 are also first cousins once removed. I don't understand where 2nd/3rd cousins comes into it.

genou wrote: I don't understand where 2nd/3rd cousins comes into it.

from https://www.familysearch.org/en/blog/wh ... ond-cousin

genou wrote:

JessUK98 wrote:Query:
X, Y & Z are brothers.

X1 and Y1 are 1st cousins (X & Y’s respective children)
X2 is X1’s Niece.
All 3 are on Ancestry.

A is illegitimate and has popped up on Ancestry wanting to know who her father is.

She shows as X1’s 1st cousin, Y1’s 1st or 2nd Cousin and X2’s 2nd or 3rd cousin.
Y1 also shows as X2’s 2nd or 3rd cousin.

What relation is A? We have narrowed it down to someone on Z’s side as being her father. A thinks X1 is her great Aunt but how would that be possible? X1 thinks A is Z’s grand daughter. X2 thinks possibly she is Z’s daughter. Z has long since died and had form for playing away as does at least 1 of his sons.

To compound matters B is on Ancestry and thinks his mother is Z’s daughter from an affair. He’s also showing as X1’s 1st cousin & X2’s 2nd - 3rd cousin (not sure what B is showing as for Y1). Apparently B is showing as A’s 1st cousin as well.

Any ideas who could be A’s father?

If A and X1 are first cousins, then A's parent is a sibling of X1. Which would make X1's sibling also a first cousin, so that X2 would be A's first cousin once removed. Y1 and X2 are also first cousins once removed. I don't understand where 2nd/3rd cousins comes into it.

On the results page it says 2nd - 3rd cousins but when you click on the match the top result is 1st cousin 1 x removed, so that’s what it must mean then. So it looks like X1 could be A’s Aunt then and not a 1st cousin ? X1 had 4 brothers, 3 of whom have died (including X2’s father who can be ruled out as otherwise X2 and A would show has half siblings?).

didds wrote:

genou wrote: I don't understand where 2nd/3rd cousins comes into it.

from https://www.familysearch.org/en/blog/wh ... ond-cousin

Yes, but they are too closely related to be 2nd/3rd cousins.

JessUK98 wrote:[On the results page it says 2nd - 3rd cousins but when you click on the match the top result is 1st cousin 1 x removed, so that’s what it must mean then. So it looks like X1 could be A’s Aunt then and not a 1st cousin ? X1 had 4 brothers, 3 of whom have died (including X2’s father who can be ruled out as otherwise X2 and A would show has half siblings?).

I'm not sure. I would have expected an Aunt to show as more closely related than a first cousin.

JessUK98 wrote:Query:
X, Y & Z are brothers.

X1 and Y1 are 1st cousins (X & Y’s respective children)
X2 is X1’s Niece.
All 3 are on Ancestry.

A is illegitimate and has popped up on Ancestry wanting to know who her father is.

She shows as X1’s 1st cousin, Y1’s 1st or 2nd Cousin and X2’s 2nd or 3rd cousin.
Y1 also shows as X2’s 2nd or 3rd cousin.

What relation is A? We have narrowed it down to someone on Z’s side as being her father. A thinks X1 is her great Aunt but how would that be possible? X1 thinks A is Z’s grand daughter. X2 thinks possibly she is Z’s daughter. Z has long since died and had form for playing away as does at least 1 of his sons.

To compound matters B is on Ancestry and thinks his mother is Z’s daughter from an affair. He’s also showing as X1’s 1st cousin & X2’s 2nd - 3rd cousin (not sure what B is showing as for Y1). Apparently B is showing as A’s 1st cousin as well.

Any ideas who could be A’s father?

You didn't mention DNA at all in your posts, I presume by mistake. It might help everyone if you made clear which relationships are implied by DNA results and which are known to be correct by other means. DNA might indicate a second cousin relationship but in reality a there is a range of alternatives involving generational offsets or half siblings, for example.

GS
EDIT: A link to one of the above individuals on your tree on Ancestry might help too, if it's a public tree.

genou wrote:

didds wrote:

genou wrote: I don't understand where 2nd/3rd cousins comes into it.

from https://www.familysearch.org/en/blog/wh ... ond-cousin

Yes, but they are too closely related to be 2nd/3rd cousins.

in which case the advice gelaned from wherever that they are is clearly incorrect.

genou wrote:

JessUK98 wrote:[On the results page it says 2nd - 3rd cousins but when you click on the match the top result is 1st cousin 1 x removed, so that’s what it must mean then. So it looks like X1 could be A’s Aunt then and not a 1st cousin ? X1 had 4 brothers, 3 of whom have died (including X2’s father who can be ruled out as otherwise X2 and A would show has half siblings?).

I'm not sure. I would have expected an Aunt to show as more closely related than a first cousin.

indeede. as per that picture I posted above an aunt is three steps, a first cousin four

JessUK98 wrote:Query:
She shows as X1’s 1st cousin, Y1’s 1st or 2nd Cousin and X2’s 2nd or 3rd cousin.

Any ideas who could be A’s father?

DNA results are more accurate for closer relatives, so if we assume she is X1’s 1st cousin then her father has to be either Y or Z
with X2 as 2nd cousin (rather than 1/2 niece) points to it being Z who is the father.

a possible derail here, but having foudn that chart above it seems one can have two first cousins once removed, who are themselves two generations apart - eg my father's cousin being one, and my first cousin's child another. Quoite different repationships with the same description.

GoSeigen wrote:

JessUK98 wrote:Query:
X, Y & Z are brothers.

X1 and Y1 are 1st cousins (X & Y’s respective children)
X2 is X1’s Niece.
All 3 are on Ancestry.

A is illegitimate and has popped up on Ancestry wanting to know who her father is.

She shows as X1’s 1st cousin, Y1’s 1st or 2nd Cousin and X2’s 2nd or 3rd cousin.
Y1 also shows as X2’s 2nd or 3rd cousin.

What relation is A? We have narrowed it down to someone on Z’s side as being her father. A thinks X1 is her great Aunt but how would that be possible? X1 thinks A is Z’s grand daughter. X2 thinks possibly she is Z’s daughter. Z has long since died and had form for playing away as does at least 1 of his sons.

To compound matters B is on Ancestry and thinks his mother is Z’s daughter from an affair. He’s also showing as X1’s 1st cousin & X2’s 2nd - 3rd cousin (not sure what B is showing as for Y1). Apparently B is showing as A’s 1st cousin as well.

Any ideas who could be A’s father?

You didn't mention DNA at all in your posts, I presume by mistake. It might help everyone if you made clear which relationships are implied by DNA results and which are known to be correct by other means. DNA might indicate a second cousin relationship but in reality a there is a range of alternatives involving generational offsets or half siblings, for example.

GS
EDIT: A link to one of the above individuals on your tree on Ancestry might help too, if it's a public tree.

Sorry, all the results are based on DNA. So X2 knew X1 was her aunt, and this was confirmed by the DNA. X1 and Y1 knew they were forst cousins (their fathers X & Y are brothers), again conformed by DNA. It’s A & B who don’t know where they fit, but they are somehow related because they are DNA matches to X1, Y1 and X2 (X, Y & Z are long dead).

didds wrote:a possible derail here, but having foudn that chart above it seems one can have two first cousins once removed, who are themselves two generations apart - eg my father's cousin being one, and my first cousin's child another. Quoite different repationships with the same description.

100% derail. One can also have two first cousins who are entirely unrelated to each other. One can have an uncle who is your blood relative and another who is not. Both are called "uncle". I don't see the point in this diversion personally.

GS