Boys v girls at maths

[Gerry557]

Just been searching for stats on maths attainment of boys v girls especially in early years such as key stage 1 and 2.

Gov.org doesn't make it easy maybe I should try using a PC instead of a table or ask a school.

So does anyone know the real stats

Moderator Message:
Moved from DAK to Family Affairs to enable discussion to continue (chas49)

[modellingman]

Have a look at the research and statistics section of the Standards and Testing Agency : https://www.gov.uk/search/research-and- ... ing-agency

There's not that much there but there are results of the Key Stage Two SATs for 2019 are there. This shows the percentage of girls reaching the required standard in mathematics slightly exceeded that of boys. I suspect 2020 and 2021 were massively disrupted by covid and 2022 and 2023 have been involved in catch-up in schools.

modellingman

[bungeejumper]

No expert here, but I believe that ideas are now changing about why (and how) girls' performance differs from that of boys. If there's statistical obfuscation going on, it might be that officaldom is protecting its own back?

It used to be thought that boys were naturally better at maths, and musical composition, and chess, and oddball subjects like architecture, because of sex-specific brain differences. (Some do seem to exist - there is no real disagreement that girls do better at early-school language tasks, and that boys have better 3D spatial awareness.) But times are changing, and the current orthodoxy is that girls are held back from maths and science subjects by cultural expectations. Light the blue touch paper and retire!

The new orthodoxy seems to be that girls (as a cohort) work more steadily at maths than boys, but that boys (also as a cohort) are somehow more successful at pulling out that little bit of extra achievement when faced with pressure - for example, from an exam paper. You can see why this might be a cause for obfuscation!

For what it's worth, the best mathematician I ever knew was a young woman with an Oxbridge double first in theoretical maths, who also just happened to be a grandmaster at bridge. And a female engineer I knew was developing naval weapons. It's a rocky road when people start to make generalisations.

BJ

[UncleEbenezer]

Have a look at the research and statistics section of the Standards and Testing Agency : https://www.gov.uk/search/research-and- ... ing-agency

There's not that much there but there are results of the Key Stage Two SATs for 2019 are there. This shows the percentage of girls reaching the required standard in mathematics slightly exceeded that of boys. I suspect 2020 and 2021 were massively disrupted by covid and 2022 and 2023 have been involved in catch-up in schools.

modellingman

That's applying a very, very low standard: only the retarded or delinquent (or perhaps those horribly ill on the day) could ever fail. So perhaps it might reflect more on delinquency rate than on mathematical ability?

[UncleEbenezer]

It's a rocky road when people start to make generalisations.

BJ

Indeed. I tend to me most suspicious of that which is fashionable to believe.

Food for thought. If men don't have a natural advantage at intellectual games like chess (let alone bridge, which also has a strong social element), why are there separate mens and womens tournaments at elite levels?

[servodude]

It's a rocky road when people start to make generalisations.

BJ

Indeed. I tend to me most suspicious of that which is fashionable to believe.

Food for thought. If men don't have a natural advantage at intellectual games like chess (let alone bridge, which also has a strong social element), why are there separate mens and womens tournaments at elite levels?

I would argue historical precedent for that kind of thing among the cultures playing the games; or similarly ask why women were/(are in some places) not capable of the mental exercise required in voting?

[UncleEbenezer]

I would argue historical precedent for that kind of thing among the cultures playing the games; or similarly ask why women were/(are in some places) not capable of the mental exercise required in voting?

Entirely plausible. Entirely unproven. Food for thought, but not solid evidence of anything other than society's expectations (and we can argue over which expectations: who would be up in arms if separate womens tournaments were abolished?)

There's a lot of inertia. The arguments that gave us the "womens prize" for fiction if applied today should've made it a "men-only prize", as the men who now get considered for literary prizes are those who are older and firmly established. A rapid swing of a pendulum! But it tells us nothing about the original question.

[servodude]

I would argue historical precedent for that kind of thing among the cultures playing the games; or similarly ask why women were/(are in some places) not capable of the mental exercise required in voting?

Entirely plausible. Entirely unproven. Food for thought, but not solid evidence of anything other than society's expectations (and we can argue over which expectations: who would be up in arms if separate womens tournaments were abolished?)

There's a lot of inertia. The arguments that gave us the "womens prize" for fiction if applied today should've made it a "men-only prize", as the men who now get considered for literary prizes are those who are older and firmly established. A rapid swing of a pendulum! But it tells us nothing about the original question.

Weren't the arguments for "that kind of thing" generally to address a historical exclusion/imbalance; see also BLM - where the counterpoint isn't that "others don't" (unless you're being told what to think by your paper )

[chas49]

Have a look at the research and statistics section of the Standards and Testing Agency : https://www.gov.uk/search/research-and- ... ing-agency

There's not that much there but there are results of the Key Stage Two SATs for 2019 are there. This shows the percentage of girls reaching the required standard in mathematics slightly exceeded that of boys. I suspect 2020 and 2021 were massively disrupted by covid and 2022 and 2023 have been involved in catch-up in schools.

modellingman

For some reason that site doesn't seem to include the more up to date figures.

Here's a summary from https://explore-education-statistics.se ... attainment

In individual subjects, attainment increased in maths, writing and science compared to 2022. Attainment remained the same in grammar, punctuation and spelling and fell in reading.

In reading, 73% of pupils met the expected standard, down from 75% in 2022.

In maths, 73% of pupils met the expected standard, up from 71% in 2022.

In writing teacher assessment, 71% of pupils met the expected standard, up from 69% in 2022.

In grammar, punctuation and spelling, 72% of pupils met the expected standard, unchanged from 2022.

In science teacher assessment, 80% of pupils met the expected standard, up from 79% in 2022.

In all of reading, writing and maths (combined), 60% of pupils met the expected standard, up from 59% in 2022. At the higher standard, 8% of pupils met the standard, up from 7% in 2022.

Girls made more progress than boys in reading and writing, while boys made more progress in maths.

[chas49]

Moderator Message:
This is the DAK forum. As everyone should be aware (and the rules are in red at the top of the page so there's no excuse!):

Forum rules
Direct questions and answers, this room is not for general discussion please

The discussion is now well off-topic. I have posted an extract and link to up-to-date statistics which should answer the OP's question.

Please do not continue the off-topic discussion here. (chas49)

[Gerry557]

Thanks for replies so far. It does seem that finding actual figures are difficult to obtain. KS2 2019 shows girls exceeding boys in maths albeit only by 1point.

I'll keep searching for some more Ks1 stats that are more recent.

Im not sure the term "more progress" helps much as they could be making more progress but still be behind although this is looking unlikely.

The reason I'm asking is that a child was told that she wouldn't do well at maths because she's a girl. I was looking to find evidence to either support or deny this statement. Even so she is still an individual and is just as likely to differ from any average. I would not want her not to be given the opportunity to do well in maths as it has already been pre determined that because she's a girl she's not expected to attain a set level.

Even so it's looking very close on the numbers so if boys were being told the same, whilst the facts might offer some support towards that statement it's almost negligible.

[UncleEbenezer]

The reason I'm asking is that a child was told that she wouldn't do well at maths because she's a girl. I was looking to find evidence to either support or deny this statement. Even so she is still an individual and is just as likely to differ from any average. I would not want her not to be given the opportunity to do well in maths as it has already been pre determined that because she's a girl she's not expected to attain a set level.

So someone is trying to encourage her in a different direction.

We could interpret that in more than one way. "because she's a girl" may or may not be a genuine belief, as might "won't do well at maths". I'd use the SATs stats mentioned by others here to counter that. Once upon a time when the Rubik's cube was new and I was showing it to some of my family, my cousin - a five-year-old girl at the time - showed by far the greatest aptitude for it (can't recollect if that included her dad, who was a professional engineer).

If she's intelligent and interested in Maths then she should be encouraged. If she's old enough (secondary school age certainly should be if the aptitude is there) I'd strongly recommend G H Hardy's Mathematician's Apology to any intelligent young person. If she's younger than that, maybe something like Roald Dahl's Matilda might serve to defend against being undermined by adult negativity

[chas49]

Moderator Message:
Moved from DAK to Family Affairs to enable discussion to continue (chas49)

[chas49]

I'll keep searching for some more Ks1 stats that are more recent.

The 2022/23 figures (i.e. for the SATS taken in the Summer Term 2023 which I linked above are the most recent data there can be.

Im not sure the term "more progress" helps much as they could be making more progress but still be behind although this is looking unlikely.

Two measures are used in education in the UK - attainment and progress. You're probably looking for attainment.

[servodude]

The reason I'm asking is that a child was told that she wouldn't do well at maths because she's a girl. I was looking to find evidence to either support or deny this statement. Even so she is still an individual and is just as likely to differ from any average. I would not want her not to be given the opportunity to do well in maths as it has already been pre determined that because she's a girl she's not expected to attain a set level.

So someone is trying to encourage her in a different direction.

We could interpret that in more than one way. "because she's a girl" may or may not be a genuine belief, as might "won't do well at maths". I'd use the SATs stats mentioned by others here to counter that. Once upon a time when the Rubik's cube was new and I was showing it to some of my family, my cousin - a five-year-old girl at the time - showed by far the greatest aptitude for it (can't recollect if that included her dad, who was a professional engineer).

If she's intelligent and interested in Maths then she should be encouraged. If she's old enough (secondary school age certainly should be if the aptitude is there) I'd strongly recommend G H Hardy's Mathematician's Apology to any intelligent young person. If she's younger than that, maybe something like Roald Dahl's Matilda might serve to defend against being undermined by adult negativity

Absolutely agree with what UE has posted.
I'm a bit worried though if the person that told you the expectation was in an educational position it might turn out to be a self fulfilling prophecy
Even only 30 years ago when I was training as an engineer lassies made a tiny part of the intake (notably they were a much bigger part of us that graduated - and I was a minority male in those that got firsts).
Two of the ladies I studied with are now quite active in promoting females in STEM in the UK (in addition to the other bits of their careers) - they would be horrified to hear the conjecture posted! (if taken at face value)

[UncleEbenezer]

Some more recommendations, to add to Hardy.

Tell mathematical anecdotes and use them to provoke discussion. For example, Xeno's paradox - aka the Hare and the Tortoise (understand that and you've bagged Newtonian calculus). Anecdotes about practical maths/engineering: the principle of the pulley and the lever. Why does your car have more than one gear? Euclid on parallel lines. How Eratosthenes measured the size and curvature of the Earth. The anecdote of Archimedes defeating the invading armada at Syracuse.

And mathematical puzzles. I recollect the name of Martin Gardner as author of a book (or two) that played a part in my own formative years.

[Gerry557]

I'll keep searching for some more Ks1 stats that are more recent.

The 2022/23 figures (i.e. for the SATS taken in the Summer Term 2023 which I linked above are the most recent data there can be.

Im not sure the term "more progress" helps much as they could be making more progress but still be behind although this is looking unlikely.

Two measures are used in education in the UK - attainment and progress. You're probably looking for attainment.

Thanks Chas
The link opens up to various heading so sorry if I missed it first time around.

I did find :-
Attainment and progress by gender
Girls continue to outperform boys at the expected standard in all subjects in 2023, except for maths where boys performed slightly better (1 percentage point difference).

So there has been a swing from girls the last couple of years to boys last year but it's only a small difference in KS2. That answers one question.

Ks1 maths is more difficult to find. Maybe it's not done or still getting over covid. There is Ks1 Phonics screening check but it was maths specifically I wanted.

I do appreciate the help.

[UncleEbenezer]

I'm a bit worried though if the person that told you the expectation was in an educational position it might turn out to be a self fulfilling prophecy

Though if that person was a teacher they'd be speaking from actual experience And what was actually said was probably paraphrased.

Two of the ladies I studied with are now quite active in promoting females in STEM in the UK (in addition to the other bits of their careers) - they would be horrified to hear the conjecture posted! (if taken at face value)

Or it might reinforce all their prejudices ...

Not that I have any basis to assume prejudices. At least, not if (as I suspect) they've seen that sentiment often enough that horrified becomes something more like mildly exasperated.

[Gerry557]

"So someone is trying to encourage her in a different direction."

Unfortunately no. Basically saying they should give up trying with maths because she's a girl. Strangely it was an adult femail that made the statement to others. It's a good job the child didn't get told that.

Whilst the lady herself might believe she is poor at maths why tar a child with the same brush.

Even if figures indicated that girls did under perform a little I think I would be encouraging girls just to work a little harder but not to Jack it all in. We don't tell boys to give up reading even though that's the biggest differential.

I just wanted some facts and figures to bat against the comment. Mrs 557 was quite angry at the statement. She comes with an empowering women background. It's something the taliban might say.

[Gerry557]

https://www.genderaction.co.uk/latest-n ... btl7ctt0dd

For my info