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Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

The home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
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This is the home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
vrdiver
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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#444451

Postby vrdiver » September 22nd, 2021, 1:54 pm

Lootman wrote:During that period how many people travelled from Tanzania to the UK via India and lied to UK border control?

You are aware, I hope, that you need a negative test before boarding any flight to the UK, and again afterwards?

Don't need the numbers; as evidence, I present to you the presence of the Delta variant in the UK.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#444452

Postby XFool » September 22nd, 2021, 1:54 pm

Lootman wrote:
vrdiver wrote:
Lootman wrote:It did work. The Delta variant did not arrive from Tanzania, which remains on the UK "red" list.

Well, that's OK then. A quick scan on kayak shows over 500 available flights between Tanzania and India (where the Delta virus came from).

During that period how many people travelled from Tanzania to the UK via India and lied to UK border control?

Surely the general point is people come and go - to and from say Tanzania and not just to India and not just to the UK and not just Tanzanians. Also, the same applies to countries other than Tanzania.

Lootman wrote:You are aware, I hope, that you need a negative test before boarding any flight to the UK, and again afterwards?

Well that sounds like a good thing. Another good thing, both for the people themselves and also for our own self interest, is that we help to get people throughout the world vaccinated. After all, it is a Pandemic.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#444453

Postby Lootman » September 22nd, 2021, 1:58 pm

vrdiver wrote:
Lootman wrote:During that period how many people travelled from Tanzania to the UK via India and lied to UK border control?

You are aware, I hope, that you need a negative test before boarding any flight to the UK, and again afterwards?

Don't need the numbers; as evidence, I present to you the presence of the Delta variant in the UK.

Delta is in the UK but that doesn't mean that depriving UK seniors of a booster shot so we can flood Tanzania with vaccinations would solve the problem. There is no evidence that Delta originated in Tanzania nor that anyone from there helped to spread it. And there is no way of knowing whether sending millions of vaccine shots there now will prevent a new mutation in the future.

But what we do know for sure is that giving extra protection to UK residents reduces risk of infection and illness HERE.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#444457

Postby XFool » September 22nd, 2021, 2:51 pm

Lootman wrote:
vrdiver wrote:Don't need the numbers; as evidence, I present to you the presence of the Delta variant in the UK.

Delta is in the UK but that doesn't mean that depriving UK seniors of a booster shot so we can flood Tanzania with vaccinations would solve the problem. There is no evidence that Delta originated in Tanzania nor that anyone from there helped to spread it.

So...?

Because it didn't originate in Tanzania it doesn't exist? No variant could possibly originate in Tanzania, or anywhere else?

I confess: The 'logic' of your argument here defeats me.

Lootman wrote:And there is no way of knowing whether sending millions of vaccine shots there now will prevent a new mutation in the future.

But what we do know for sure is that giving extra protection to UK residents reduces risk of infection and illness HERE.

My impression from hearing Gordon Brown on the radio the other day was that, rather than "global grandstanding", he was objecting to this:

Covid vaccine stockpiles: Could 241m doses go to waste?

BBC News

President Biden is asking world leaders to pledge to vaccinate 70% of the global population by September next year. But research shows rich countries are still holding surpluses of vaccines, many of which could soon be thrown out.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#444459

Postby vrdiver » September 22nd, 2021, 3:05 pm

Lootman wrote:
vrdiver wrote:
Lootman wrote:During that period how many people travelled from Tanzania to the UK via India and lied to UK border control?

You are aware, I hope, that you need a negative test before boarding any flight to the UK, and again afterwards?

Don't need the numbers; as evidence, I present to you the presence of the Delta variant in the UK.

Delta is in the UK

So you agree that it came in with a traveller and that UK border control failed to keep it out, despite testing and red lists?

Either we get the world population vaccinated, or we continue to be disrupted by this virus, either directly in the UK, or indirectly, as economies we trade with struggle to cope with it.

I don't think it's a case of either giving boosters in the UK or sending vaccines to developing nations. Rather, it might be a case of having a joined-up plan, perhaps led by those who will pay for it, like the G7 or the G20?

From a business perspective, sometimes it's worth helping your suppliers with a problem so as to avoid disruption to your own organisation. I think this is one of those times.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#444461

Postby Lootman » September 22nd, 2021, 3:12 pm

vrdiver wrote:
Lootman wrote:
vrdiver wrote:Don't need the numbers; as evidence, I present to you the presence of the Delta variant in the UK.

Delta is in the UK

So you agree that it came in with a traveller and that UK border control failed to keep it out, despite testing and red lists?

Either we get the world population vaccinated, or we continue to be disrupted by this virus, either directly in the UK, or indirectly, as economies we trade with struggle to cope with it.

I don't think it's a case of either giving boosters in the UK or sending vaccines to developing nations. Rather, it might be a case of having a joined-up plan, perhaps led by those who will pay for it, like the G7 or the G20?

From a business perspective, sometimes it's worth helping your suppliers with a problem so as to avoid disruption to your own organisation. I think this is one of those times.

Sure, the ideal solution would be to vaccinate the entire world and eradicate Covid. For that matter I'd like world peace and an end to famine as well.

But the issue here is much narrower. Should we give a booster jab to UK pensioners? Or should we send those 15 million or so doses to somewhere in the third world, in the hope that it just happens to prevent the next Delta from mutating? Those 15 million doses are a drop in the ocean and there is no way to know where to direct it.

We cannot control what foreigners do in other lands. We can make our own population more immune from what they do, however.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#444465

Postby XFool » September 22nd, 2021, 3:23 pm

Lootman wrote:Sure, the ideal solution would be to vaccinate the entire world and eradicate Covid. For that matter I'd like world peace and an end to famine as well.

But the issue here is much narrower. Should we give a booster jab to UK pensioners? Or should we send those 15 million or so doses to somewhere in the third world, in the hope that it just happens to prevent the next Delta from mutating?

The issue here is that that isn't the issue here. It is a pseudo-issue.

Lootman wrote:We cannot control what foreigners do in other lands. We can make our own population more immune from what they do, however.

Sure, which we are doing. Then again, we can only make our own population immune from what we already know of and know how to counter, not necessarily effectively against possible variants we know nothing about.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#444483

Postby Lootman » September 22nd, 2021, 4:43 pm

XFool wrote:
Lootman wrote:We cannot control what foreigners do in other lands. We can make our own population more immune from what they do, however.

Sure, which we are doing. Then again, we can only make our own population immune from what we already know of and know how to counter, not necessarily effectively against possible variants we know nothing about.

Yes we are doing that, by giving out booster doses to people like you.

Obviously we cannot do anything about things we do not know anything about.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#444489

Postby XFool » September 22nd, 2021, 4:57 pm

Lootman wrote:
XFool wrote:
Lootman wrote:We cannot control what foreigners do in other lands. We can make our own population more immune from what they do, however.

Sure, which we are doing. Then again, we can only make our own population immune from what we already know of and know how to counter, not necessarily effectively against possible variants we know nothing about.

Yes we are doing that, by giving out booster doses to people like you.

Obviously we cannot do anything about things we do not know anything about.

Oh Gawd! :roll:


(Don't ask me to be "less opaque" or I might be just that...)

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#444491

Postby Lootman » September 22nd, 2021, 4:59 pm

XFool wrote:
Lootman wrote:
XFool wrote:Sure, which we are doing. Then again, we can only make our own population immune from what we already know of and know how to counter, not necessarily effectively against possible variants we know nothing about.

Yes we are doing that, by giving out booster doses to people like you.

Obviously we cannot do anything about things we do not know anything about.

Oh Gawd! :roll:

You realise that is neither a mature nor informative reply, right?

If you cannot refute me then just admit it rather than play verbal games.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#444493

Postby XFool » September 22nd, 2021, 5:01 pm

Lootman wrote:
XFool wrote:
Lootman wrote:Yes we are doing that, by giving out booster doses to people like you.

Obviously we cannot do anything about things we do not know anything about.

Oh Gawd! :roll:

You realise that is neither a mature nor informative reply, right?

If you cannot refute me then just admit it rather than play verbal games.

You just cannot be told...

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#444496

Postby Lootman » September 22nd, 2021, 5:07 pm

XFool wrote:
Lootman wrote:
XFool wrote:Oh Gawd! :roll:

You realise that is neither a mature nor informative reply, right?

If you cannot refute me then just admit it rather than play verbal games.

You just cannot be told...

Oh I see, so I should just roll over, tell you that you are correct and marvel at how smart you are?

When you cannot even refute a single point I have made?

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#444499

Postby XFool » September 22nd, 2021, 5:11 pm

You cannot tell someone anything, however simple, if they really, really don't want to know.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#444500

Postby Lootman » September 22nd, 2021, 5:13 pm

XFool wrote:You cannot tell someone anything, however simple, if they really, really don't want to know.

Finally you said something I agree with.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#444517

Postby redsturgeon » September 22nd, 2021, 5:35 pm

Moderator Message:
FAO Lootman and Xfool. I am sure you two must be getting as bored as everyone else with this petty arguing. I will delete any other posts that continue your personal spat. Please just PM each other if you wish to continue.

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#444529

Postby XFool » September 22nd, 2021, 6:12 pm

Covid: Immune therapy from llamas shows promise

BBC News

A Covid therapy derived from a llama named Fifi has shown "significant potential" in early trials.

"It is a treatment made of "nanobodies", small, simpler versions of antibodies, which llamas and camels produce naturally in response to infection."

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#444584

Postby XFool » September 22nd, 2021, 11:04 pm

Some more good stuff going on. Vaccine swaps:

UK to send 1m Pfizer vaccine doses to South Korea in swap deal

The Guardian

Doses will help South Korea boost full vaccination rates, and UK will get same number back later in year

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#444691

Postby 88V8 » September 23rd, 2021, 12:35 pm

XFool wrote:Covid: Immune therapy from llamas shows promise

Let's hope it doesn't catch TB. Or DEFRA imagine that it's caught TB.

Professor Sir John Bell being positive about the coming winter on Times Radio this morning (no mention of llamas). https://www.thetimes.co.uk/radio/show/20210923-4306/2021-09-23 at 2:07.

V8

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#444854

Postby onthemove » September 23rd, 2021, 9:42 pm

XFool wrote: Then again, we can only make our own population immune from what we already know of and know how to counter, not necessarily effectively against possible variants we know nothing about.



Not sure how to link to the specific section, but it's at 13:48 (23/9/2021) ... https://www.theguardian.com/world/live/ ... navigation

"It comes after Prof Dame Sarah Gilbert told a Royal Society of Medicine webinar that viruses tend to become weaker as they spread around.

She said:

We normally see that viruses become less virulent as they circulate more easily and there is no reason to think we will have a more virulent version of Sars-CoV-2.

We tend to see slow genetic drift of the virus and there will be gradual immunity developing in the population as there is to all the other seasonal coronaviruses.

Seasonal coronaviruses cause colds, and Gilbert said: “Eventually Sars-CoV-2 will become one of those.”

Asked about the comments on Times Radio, Bell said:

If you look at the trajectory we’re on, we’re a lot better off than we were six months ago. So the pressure on the NHS is largely abated. If you look at the deaths from Covid, they tend to be very elderly people, and it’s not entirely clear it was Covid that caused all those deaths. So I think we’re over the worst of it now.

And I think what will happen is, there will be quite a lot of background exposure to Delta [variant], we can see the case numbers are quite high, that particularly in people who’ve had two vaccines if they get a bit of breakthrough symptomatology, or not even symptomatology – if they just are asymptomatically infected, that will add to our immunity substantially"



It looks like the consensus, at least in the UK, is starting to drift towards having the virus circulating as being of benefit... adding to our immunity, and likely helping the virus to evolve to become less virulent.

I'm not going to bother digging out the article again, but on sciencedaily there was an article a while back on some research that suggested actually catching covid gives broader protection than the vaccine... makes quite some sense because the vaccines only target one specific part of the virus, whereas catching the virus let's your immune system see the whole thing, so the antibodies generated are broader and more likely to be effective even against mutations.

So as long as the original two doses are doing their job at protecting against hospitalisation and death in the UK, which they largely appear to be doing - as the quote above says, it's not even clear if the few deaths recorded as covid related are even caused by covid now, as they tend to be occurring in the elderly and those with other things that could have bene the cause - then we might as well let other countries have the extra vaccines.

Not so much to reduce the risk of new variants, rather just because it's the more equitable thing to do.

I mean, even a booster dose isn't going to be 100% effective... you're only going to add a few % onto the effectiveness of already very effective vaccines, and that's mostly going to be against symptomatic disease... so where would you stop? Another booster after that? And another?

At what point does it become unacceptably selfish to keep giving more and more jabs to ourselves when others around the world haven't even had a single one yet?

[Edit: Would just add - although I've quoted XFool I'm not sure which 'side' of the ongoing debate my comment is supportive of or countering ... I just offer it as some additional information that seems relevant to the points being discussed]

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Re: Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

#444856

Postby Lootman » September 23rd, 2021, 9:50 pm

onthemove wrote:At what point does it become unacceptably selfish to keep giving more and more jabs to ourselves when others around the world haven't even had a single one yet?

Funnily enough I agreed with everything in your post until that point. So yes, it was probably a genius move to allow Covid to spread this past summer as a natural and unofficial de facto vaccination programme. Whilst the nations that tried to keep it out through extreme measures have been shown to have failed.

But damned if I think that any UK government should be sending vaccines overseas even if a booster dose here only adds "a few percent" of extra protection. And personally I do not see the booster jabs as increasing protection but rather as prolonging it.

Think globally; act locally.


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