Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

[Lootman]

I think you should read the article before commenting

I read it earlier in the day. Usual Guardian stuff, nothing to see there.

[GrahamPlatt]

Then I suggest you read it again. Take it as a comprehension test.

[DrFfybes]

It's not exponential, he says, it's a Gompertz curve.

Cough!


It's actually a logistic curve, which has the equation:

GS

Is that a new persistant dry cough?

How's your sense of smell?

Paul

[Lootman]

Then I suggest you read it again. Take it as a comprehension test.

No need, I got it the first time, including reading between the lines which I recommend.

[tikunetih]

How do we ever get out of this or perhaps we never do?

Beyond the first week or two, I assume the Thurs ritual evolved from its initial purpose into one largely aimed at entertaining younger kid, akin to the good work being done by the various lockdown Spider Men and other dressy-uppy superhero/Disney characters who've been roaming the nation's streets the past couple of months.

So just tell the kids that Santa's now got a migraine from the racket and the clanging's got to stop else there'll be no Crumble prezzies coming for them...

[XFool]

It appears that some in the business share your thoughts

https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... e-clapping

So a NHS doctor thinks that instead of "appreciating" him we should instead just give him more money?

Fine, I propose we do neither. Wanting to profit from a healthcare crisis is profoundly unattractive.

That is a ridiculous misrepresentation of what he is saying.

[Lootman]

How do we ever get out of this or perhaps we never do?

Beyond the first week or two, I assume the Thurs ritual evolved from its initial purpose into one largely aimed at entertaining younger kid, akin to the good work being done by the various lockdown Spider Men and other dressy-uppy superhero/Disney characters who've been roaming the nation's streets the past couple of months.

So just tell the kids that Santa's now got a migraine from the racket and the clanging's got to stop else there'll be no Crumble prezzies coming for them...

I agree with you and Simsqu. This has become beyond annoying.

And note that it is has nothing to do with the NHS. A lot of countries have adopted this routine for their healthcare workers. For some it is 8 pm every night.They are even doing it in the US where healthcare is mostly private and doctors make $500,000 a year or more. Why do they need our applause?

My wife works in healthcare and makes very good money. She doesn't need clapping for, as Simsqu says, just doing her job.

Enough already.

That is a ridiculous misrepresentation of what he is saying.

It's right there in black and white in the article. He says we should pay NHS staff more. I never said it was the only thing he said. But it is still politicising a crisis. And is self-serving.

[XFool]

That is a ridiculous misrepresentation of what he is saying.

It's right there in black and white in the article. He says we should pay NHS staff more. I never said it was the only thing he said. But it is still politicising a crisis. And is self-serving.

Here, as a reminder, is what you said. The emphasis is mine:

So a NHS doctor thinks that instead of "appreciating" him we should instead just give him more money?

[Lootman]

That is a ridiculous misrepresentation of what he is saying.

It's right there in black and white in the article. He says we should pay NHS staff more. I never said it was the only thing he said. But it is still politicising a crisis. And is self-serving.

Here, as a reminder, is what you said. The emphasis is mine:

So a NHS doctor thinks that instead of "appreciating" him we should instead just give him more money?

If all NHS staff get a pay rise then so will he. You think he doesn't know that?

It seems clear what happened here. A Guardian journalist was told to go out and find a disgruntled doctor who will claim that the applause is just a meaningless token and instead we should increase funding to the NHS. Which is of course exactly what a left-leaning organ like the Guardian would say anyway.

It's just a crowd-pleasing piece of click bait to the Guardian crowd.

Anyway, there isn't supposed to be any politics on this forum. The sentiment being expressed was that all this clapping is just silly and has become tedious, and I agree with that premise.

[simsqu]

She doesn't need clapping for, as Simsqu says, just doing her job.

Yes that's not quite what I said, or perhaps I did not express myself clearly. I think it is a little more complex than that. Why are we applauding?

Perhaps an example might help. If I am in a restaurant (happy days) and the waiter brings me my Osso Bucco, I do not applaud him, because I was expecting him to bring it, and he is being paid to bring it. I'll probably say thank you, but that's it. If, however, the management are so inept, mean, greedy, avaricious, venal, pick you own adjectives, that they not only pay him a pittance, but expect him to serve every table in the establishment by himself, without any delay to the customers, and by the way, we're not buying you an apron then I might be tempted to give him a nod in appreciation.

Imagine then, that while he is doing all this, the entire cast of Les Miserables walk in and demand instant service as well. Then I might reasonably be forgiven for giving him a bit of encouragement. I might suggest it to other diners, and we all give him a well-deserved round of applause. He is grateful, and we all feel good about ourselves, and better about the situation. The management looks on and sees with satisfaction people getting served, more or less, and that the diners are not frustrated with them for not employing another waiter, but rather impressed at the sole waiter for managing under such difficult circumstances. The management stand proud and clap as loudly as the diners.

This goes on for several weeks, and by the eighth week, I think it not unreasonable to start wondering why they didn't think about employing another waiter.

However, as Lootman says, let's not get political. I was mostly just wondering how we are going to get out of this.

[Lootman]

She doesn't need clapping for, as Simsqu says, just doing her job.

Yes that's not quite what I said, or perhaps I did not express myself clearly. I think it is a little more complex than that. Why are we applauding?

Perhaps an example might help. If I am in a restaurant (happy days) and the waiter brings me my Osso Bucco, I do not applaud him, because I was expecting him to bring it, and he is being paid to bring it. I'll probably say thank you, but that's it. If, however, the management are so inept, mean, greedy, avaricious, venal, pick you own adjectives, that they not only pay him a pittance, but expect him to serve every table in the establishment by himself, without any delay to the customers, and by the way, we're not buying you an apron then I might be tempted to give him a nod in appreciation.

Imagine then, that while he is doing all this, the entire cast of Les Miserables walk in and demand instant service as well. Then I might reasonably be forgiven for giving him a bit of encouragement. I might suggest it to other diners, and we all give him a well-deserved round of applause. He is grateful, and we all feel good about ourselves, and better about the situation. The management looks on and sees with satisfaction people getting served, more or less, and that the diners are not frustrated with them for not employing another waiter, but rather impressed at the sole waiter for managing under such difficult circumstances.

This goes on for several weeks, and by the eighth week, I think it not unreasonable to start wondering why they didn't think about employing another waiter.

Fair enough, thank you. But take your restaurant analogy a little further.

It is the waiter's job to serve you, it's true. But you do more than just thank him or even applaud him. You give him a tip which is over and above whatever he gets paid. Maybe if the restaurant is very busy, as in your example, you give him a bigger tip to ensure that he maintains his good service to you. You are effectively bidding up his pay to ensure that you get good or even superior treatment.

The NHS doesn't work like that. You don't tip the doctor who saves you life. You thank him. You might buy him a gift but I'm not even sure they are allowed to accept them. Contrast that with the US where paying more will definitely get you better treatment. And US hospitals in general have not been overrun like UK hospitals.

I recall reading somewhere that in China you pay your doctor as long as you are healthy. If you get sick then you stop paying him, only resuming payment when he makes you better. A superior model, perhaps.

Of course I understand your broader point that the NHS was underfunded if demand suddenly spiked for any reason. And that those who make those funding decisions might feel off the hook because of all the applause. There is a big political question about whether we should fund the NHS to a greater extent. But then that is a debate for PD rather than here.

[servodude]

I heard that they were organising a clap for delivery drivers as well!
It's tomorrow sometime between 10 and 5


- sd

[servodude]

It feels far too early to declare Swedens approach either successful or unsuccessful.

I'll agree that it's still early days for this
- but this nugget popped up in front of me today

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11673259/ ... est-world/

'over the last seven days, Sweden had an average of 6.08 deaths per million inhabitants - more than any other country in the world'

- sd

[Itsallaguess]

Surely any NHS clapping is less to do with 'thanking them for just doing their job' than it is for 'thanking them for doing their job during these highly abnormal and highly dangerous conditions', isn't it?

Giving a slightly different example, imagine if we had a really long, harsh winter, with lots of deep snow for weeks on end....

If I was outside clearing snow off my car, having to stand in 18-inch deep snow whilst doing so, and my postman came struggling up the drive with my post, fighting to get through the deep snow so that he was able to deliver my letters, I suppose I could choose to respond to seeing him by doing either one of the following -

• Simply taking my post off him, turning away without comment, and carrying on with my car-cleaning task - after all, he's just 'doing his job'...

• Take my post off him and thank him profusely for the effort he's putting in to providing his service during those terrible and abnormal weather conditions

I don't think there's many right-minded people who, in the above situation, wouldn't go the extra mile and make a bit of a fuss in showing their distinct gratitude in that situation, is there?

It's not the NHS *jobs* that people are clapping for - it's the *conditions* that they're currently doing those jobs in, isn't it?

Oh, and by the way, I was shocked to see that when my postman was heading back down my knee-deep, snow-covered drive, that the Post-Office had only issued him with a pair of flip-flops to do his delivery in....

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

[Bubblesofearth]

It feels far too early to declare Swedens approach either successful or unsuccessful.

I'll agree that it's still early days for this
- but this nugget popped up in front of me today

https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/11673259/ ... est-world/

'over the last seven days, Sweden had an average of 6.08 deaths per million inhabitants - more than any other country in the world'

- sd

Wow. If I were given the task of interpreting that graph in a way that would make Sweden look worst then it would take me a pretty long time to find it. It's like a Mensa puzzle. You'd maybe look at total deaths, shape of the curve, current rates of decline. Only after exhausting almost all other interpretations might you, rather lamely, come up with most deaths in a short recent period. And to then slap a 'death spiral' headline on it, who would do that? Ah, of course....

[johnhemming]

'over the last seven days, Sweden had an average of 6.08 deaths per million inhabitants - more than any other country in the world'

Not only is this picked for a period which justifies the conclusion, but also it depends upon the date of reporting rather than the date of death. Other seven day periods using the same data do not justify the conclusion.

[servodude]

'over the last seven days, Sweden had an average of 6.08 deaths per million inhabitants - more than any other country in the world'

Not only is this picked for a period which justifies the conclusion, but also it depends upon the date of reporting rather than the date of death. Other seven day periods using the same data do not justify the conclusion.

I'm not sure that the period wasn't picked for much more than ending at the most recent point and being a week long
- it will be interesting to see where it goes from here

-sd

[UncleEbenezer]

Giving a slightly different example,

Silly analogy. Wouldn't you routinely thank people in all walks of life for doing a good job if you happen to witness it? Over the past few weeks I've done that for various shop workers and for our dustmen when I've encountered them working.

Not at all the same as a ritual for someone you haven't witnessed, and who may or may not be doing a good job[1].

What's sinister about it is the fact that it's ritualised, and that the ritual is sponsored by a sophisticated Ministry of Truth.

[1] I'm sure many of them are, but it would be folly to generalise. My own limited experience of an NHS hospital is of "front line" workers doing their best (often a great job) within the limitations of a system where they are constrained as cogs in a giant ultra-bureaucratic machine.

[XFool]

Coronavirus: Immune clue sparks treatment hope

BBC News

UK scientists are to begin testing a treatment that it is hoped could counter the effects of Covid-19 in the most seriously ill patients.

[dealtn]

Perhaps an example might help. If I am in a restaurant (happy days) and the waiter brings me my Osso Bucco, I do not applaud him, because I was expecting him to bring it, and he is being paid to bring it. I'll probably say thank you, but that's it. If, however, the management are so inept, mean, greedy, avaricious, venal, pick you own adjectives, that they not only pay him a pittance, but expect him to serve every table in the establishment by himself, without any delay to the customers, and by the way, we're not buying you an apron then I might be tempted to give him a nod in appreciation.

Imagine then, that while he is doing all this, the entire cast of Les Miserables walk in and demand instant service as well. Then I might reasonably be forgiven for giving him a bit of encouragement. I might suggest it to other diners, and we all give him a well-deserved round of applause. He is grateful, and we all feel good about ourselves, and better about the situation. The management looks on and sees with satisfaction people getting served, more or less, and that the diners are not frustrated with them for not employing another waiter, but rather impressed at the sole waiter for managing under such difficult circumstances. The management stand proud and clap as loudly as the diners.

This goes on for several weeks, and by the eighth week, I think it not unreasonable to start wondering why they didn't think about employing another waiter.

Wow, I know you are using this "example" for effect, but I'm not sure it helps (unless that is to make you feel better).

The NHS, both frontline and "management" aren't perfect, but that's not an analogy that overlaps in any great extent to the NHS my wife is employed to work in.

Then again this is a pub, so stories are told for effect and to entertain, not to tell the literal truth.