The Lemon Fool

pje16 wrote:

UncleEbenezer wrote:Australia comes out as the prime idiots here.
To be consistent with their draconian general covid policies, they should've cancelled the event altogether.

Aussie deaths per million are 89
the same for UK is 2,185
not sure how much is down to policy but they must be doing something right (dracion or sensible)
source
https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries

Fairy Nuff. But that was achieved at quite a high price. And they need an exit from paying that high price.

Allowing any kind of international tournamant on their soil is inconsistent with the isolation that's given them that result. So either they're shooting themselves in the foot, or they've made the decision that they can relax controls - which could be seen as a reasonable reaction to vaccines and other medical advances.

Hence the premise for my post. There were several defensible lines they could have taken, but they missed all of them and did something indefensible.

No, UncleEbenezer.

It's vaccination or quarantine - they did the latter last for last year's tournament.

You may not agree with their approach (and your earlier pejorative statement re "draconian" suggests this) but it is hard to argue against them applying one as universally as practical. Djokovic is being treated no worse in this respect to an Australian national*, as far as I can tell - and I speak as one directly affected by Australia's policies in this respect.

Regards, Newroad

* and better than some - at least they (high profile sportspeople) could come in and quarantine last year - many Australian nationals couldn't even get on a flight home

Newroad wrote:No, UncleEbenezer.

It's vaccination or quarantine - they did the latter last for last year's tournament.

The cricketers currently playing in the Test had to endure quarantine, despite being vaccinated.

TJH

UncleEbenezer wrote:Fairy Nuff. But that was achieved at quite a high price. And they need an exit from paying that high price.

Allowing any kind of international tournamant on their soil is inconsistent with the isolation that's given them that result. So either they're shooting themselves in the foot, or they've made the decision that they can relax controls - which could be seen as a reasonable reaction to vaccines and other medical advances.

Hence the premise for my post. There were several defensible lines they could have taken, but they missed all of them and did something indefensible.

I'm not sure of the logic here. They are relaxing controls enough to hold a tournament, so of that you apparently approve, but Joker is flouting the rules which isn't in line with the relaxation.

It's a mystery why Australia is in you bad books.

Hi TJH.

Yes, now you mention it, I recall that.

I'm not sure if that was a timing issue (i.e. the rules have relaxed further since then), a location issue (the First Test was in Brisbane as opposed to Melbourne), a combination of the two or something I am unaware of.

What I am fairly sure about is

(1) Each state had/has it's own Covid-19 regulations. Queensland (inc Brisbane) was generally tighter than NSW or Victoria - and W.A. was/is like a fortress, and

(2) As mentioned earlier, quarantine was required for participants in the 2021 Australian Open Tennis in Victoria (inc Melbourne).

Regards, Newroad

Newroad wrote:You may not agree with their approach (and your earlier pejorative statement re "draconian" suggests this)

Draconian refers to mentions on the news that parts of Oz (Melbourne I think featured) have had longer in lockdown than we have, or almost anywhere else. No wonder folks affected are p***ed off.

Arborbridge wrote:I'm not sure of the logic here. They are relaxing controls enough to hold a tournament, so of that you apparently approve, but Joker is flouting the rules which isn't in line with the relaxation.

It's a mystery why Australia is in you bad books.

I suggested three courses of action which would be defensible. One of those would be to allow others in but keep him out, but to be clear about it. Let's see what I wrote. Aha, yes:

Failing that too, they should've been clear who was being barred. Not just to spare him the ordeal of a futile journey, but to make it clear to other players the extent to which the event was compromised and devalued, in time for them to make an informed decision whether to participate.

As for the man himself, I have no wish to take sides. His decision, his consequences. But he doesn't deserve to be strung along to the point where he makes the journey in good faith then gets turned away. Neither do other participants deserve to find themselves in a tournament devalued by his absence without having had the opportunity to make an informed choice.

tjh290633 wrote:The cricketers currently playing in the Test had to endure quarantine, despite being vaccinated.

I'm guessing they knew of this before embarking on the tour? I wonder if that's one reason they're losing quite so badly?

Hi UncleEbenezer.

If, in the fullness of time, we find out that Djokovic (and his agents in context) have truly been acting in "good faith", then some sympathy would be in order. It may be that we never know for sure - I wouldn't expect ABF officials to release what may be personal/sensitive data - but I understand Djokovic has taken out a Federal Court injunction in an attempt to stop his deporting, meaning the salient facts could enter the public realm.

Based on some of the statements made thus far, e.g.

ABF: "... failed to provide appropriate evidence [for entry] ..."

Deputy PM: "... If he hasn't filled out the forms appropriately then he's taking the sovereign capacity of another nation for a joke ... 100% someone's made a mistake and if he hasn't told the truth then the person who's made the mistake is Mr Djokovic ..."

it would appear that one or more parties involved in obtaining the (now revoked) visa have likely been somewhere between economical with the truth and simply dishonest. My guess is that there has been a mini-conspiracy to get him into Australia unvaccinated, which is unravelling. If so, I think it's unlikely Djokovic was completely unaware.

Regards, Newroad

Newroad wrote:Hi ServoDude.

I would be interested in what medical condition (or prior reaction) would enable a medical exemption from ALL known Covid-19 vaccines?

In simple terms, there are MRNA vaccines and vector vaccines for Covid-19 as I understand it - and from there, sub-types (e.g. AZ is an adenovirus variant of a vector vaccine). In so far as you know, does your colleague's condition prevent the use of all Covid-19 vaccine types - and if so, what is the common factor in said prevention?

Regards, Newroad

She'd been hospitalised before because of a reaction (that was presumed to be) due to a previous vaccination. It might well be that there's a vaccine that could work reliably and safely for her, but I don't think that her previous episode was investigated sufficiently to know precisely what the trigger wasa. The idea of requiring to take one to remain in her job was causing sufficiently severe anxiety and panic attacks that her exemption was granted on mental health grounds.

I don't doubt her account as in the same week we got rid of a couple of God bothering nut jobs who subscribe to the 5g hoax Novak school.

-sd

Newroad wrote:it would appear that one or more parties involved in obtaining the (now revoked) visa have likely been somewhere between economical with the truth and simply dishonest. My guess is that there has been a mini-conspiracy to get him into Australia unvaccinated, which is unravelling. If so, I think it's unlikely Djokovic was completely unaware.

Indeed

Having someone else make the convenient mistakes on your application for the visa that doesn't allow medical exemptions and then trying to wing it seems like a strategy up there with immediately forgetting how to speak english when they wave your landing card at you (I'll have to wait for the video to be released to see if they tried that also)

- sd

Newroad wrote:Hi TJH.

Yes, now you mention it, I recall that.

I'm not sure if that was a timing issue (i.e. the rules have relaxed further since then), a location issue (the First Test was in Brisbane as opposed to Melbourne), a combination of the two or something I am unaware of.

Several members of the party and the broadcasting teams have been forced to isolate, as a result of a close contact testing positive. Chris Silverwood, for example, was unable to travel to Sydney because of this. One of the BT Broadcasting team had to remain in Adelaide for the same reason, (Finn, I think), and at times they have been commentating from their hotel rooms, rather than at the match.

The individual States have their own rules, and the 5th Test has been transferred to Hobart, because Western Australia will not let anyone into that state.

TJH

Squabble between two peripheral nations (Serbia and Australia), one of which has been obsessively weird re Covid, about sports is probably not going to be troubling the UN, world leaders or reasonable people any time soon.

I heard Joko's Mum, I think it was, complaining how he was effectively prisoner. Ooh - so unfair!

Really? I doubt he is a prisoner in any real sense - he could go home at any time.
It's just that he does not have the appropriate entry requirements so is held at the border while the legal challenge which he brought plays out. That isn't being a prisoner: that could happen to any of us if we have trouble at a border. and it was his choice to go to law.

Arb.

What a song and dance it's turning into
FFS just get the jab Novaks

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-59926777

pje16 wrote:What a song and dance it's turning into
FFS just get the jab Novaks

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-59926777

The whole thing is fishy as! and seems to get worse for everyone the more the correspondence is revealed/leaked
The tournament organisers appear to have been told the facts (and had them checked and were told that players needed vaccination to enter OZ) and then kept their fingers crossed that everything would work out anyway if no-one looked too hard

I'm not sure if the "convenient" contraction of COVID will help given that the date given is a week after he had to have the paperwork submitted for his playing exemption - perhaps he knew he was going to catch it? he's a bit weird that way

Anyway the others in the tournament caught out by the same "mistake" are all heading home but the goat Novak is going to try and front it out
- if there's no path to a clear cut decision resulting tomorrow I suspect he'll be allowed to play and the case deferred

- sd

servodude wrote:

pje16 wrote:What a song and dance it's turning into
FFS just get the jab Novaks

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-australia-59926777

...
I'm not sure if the "convenient" contraction of COVID will help given that the date given is a week after he had to have the paperwork submitted for his playing exemption - perhaps he knew he was going to catch it? he's a bit weird that way
...

I heard a news report that mentioned the dates anomaly (the fact that the paperwork deadline was 10th Dec and he claims to have tested positive on 16th December - I think I've remembered those dates correctly but the key fact was that the claimed positive test was after the deadline for submitting the paperwork). The news report that I heard though then went on to mention that there are photos out in the public domain showing Djokovic at an event at his tennis academy the day after his claimed positive test so I see no way this guy doesn't come out of this looking like a complete jerk because if the positive test is all above board and it turns out that due to his status he was allowed some leeway on missing the submission deadline and was allowed to retrospectively claim the exemption his attendance at that tennis academy event the very day after a positive PCR test is about as irresponsible as it gets; not only anti-vaxer but with an added side order of Covid-denier.

I hope the truth does eventually come out on all of this so that we can see if Djokovic did essentially play by the rules and got caught out by chaotic and conflicting bureaucracy in Australia(*) or alternatively see just how much of a jerk the guy really is.

Not the news item I referenced, that was a radio report, but there are lots of references to that attendance after the alleged PCR tests e.g. - https://www.firstpost.com/sports/novak- ... 69101.html

- Julian

(*) Putting that caught out by bureaucracy option in there to try and maintain an open mind at this point.

Newroad wrote:Hi ServoDude.

I would be interested in what medical condition (or prior reaction) would enable a medical exemption from ALL known Covid-19 vaccines?

In simple terms, there are MRNA vaccines and vector vaccines for Covid-19 as I understand it - and from there, sub-types (e.g. AZ is an adenovirus variant of a vector vaccine). In so far as you know, does your colleague's condition prevent the use of all Covid-19 vaccine types - and if so, what is the common factor in said prevention?

Regards, Newroad

That's a good question. I found the UK government advice here - https://www.gov.uk/guidance/covid-19-me ... vaccinated - where the relevant bit that I spotted says ...

Reasons you could get a medical exemption
The possible reasons for exemptions are limited. Examples that might be reasons for a medical exemption are:

people receiving end of life care where vaccination is not in the person’s best interests
people with learning disabilities, autism or a combination of impairments which mean that vaccination and testing result in distress and who cannot be vaccinated through reasonable adjustments such as an accessible environment
a person with severe allergies to all currently available vaccines
those who have had an adverse reaction to the first dose (for example, myocarditis)
Other medical conditions could also allow you to get a medical exemption.

You can also get a temporary exemption which will allow you to use the COVID Pass if you have a short-term medical condition or are pregnant and choose to take this option.

Of course the question remains re what are those "other medical conditions" because I can't see ND fitting into any of those other categories except maybe the allergy bit, although ironically some of the more rabid lunatic conspiracy theory anti-vaxers do seem to exhibit some significant cognitive impairment in my opinion.

- Julian

I wonder if who he is had anything to do with it
If it was mean me I think I would have been barred

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-a ... a-59909477

pje16 wrote:I wonder if who he is had anything to do with it
If it was mean me I think I would have been barred

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-a ... a-59909477

Grab your popcorn! THIS is where it gets interesting.

They've ruled only that the boxes weren't ticked when his visa was revoked - apparently he was due about another 45 minutes

Suspicion is that it's a coin toss as to whether he is arrested again and it revoked properly. If he appealed then that's when they would consider the merit of his application.

The balance will be in whether Scotty from marketing thinks it's going to be more popular to have his Immi minister come down on ND (and have him barred for 3years) or to perform another flip flop (or thong?!?) and welcome him to the tournament.
Can't say I'm a fan of the behaviour from either of the sides in this debacle - but it makes for interesting content.

Nice to see Sir Andy Murray (OBE) making sensible and balanced comments about Novak - I also liked his wit replying to Nigel Farage (k.Nob) getting behind ND on Twitter
- even Nick Kyrgios sounded sane and balanced (so much so I'm hoping he can recover from the bug in time to play - and I'm far from a fan of his)

Anyways I think there's a few hours for the Immigration minister to decided to deport Novak - we'll know soon what's going on next

-sd

servodude wrote:Suspicion is that it's a coin toss as to whether he is arrested again and it revoked properly.

Great post
is that a double headed coin

pje16 wrote:

servodude wrote:Suspicion is that it's a coin toss as to whether he is arrested again and it revoked properly.

Great post
is that a double headed coin

People are going to be upset either way - so perhaps?

Apparently any decision will be deferred till tomorrow (the time requirement hinted at was to keep ND in detention)

- which will give them time to run some focus groups