Coronavirus - General Chat - No statistics

[dealtn]

Not sure I buy the bit about wanting to "ensure customer safety" anyway, or they would have stayed closed in the first place then no customers at all would possibly have shared infection in the pub.

Yes I suppose all businesses could be closed permanently, and all consumers locked in their houses. Let's have zero new infections as a priority and not worry about everyone losing their jobs.

[Mike4]

Not sure I buy the bit about wanting to "ensure customer safety" anyway, or they would have stayed closed in the first place then no customers at all would possibly have shared infection in the pub.

Yes I suppose all businesses could be closed permanently, and all consumers locked in their houses. Let's have zero new infections as a priority and not worry about everyone losing their jobs.

Now you're just being silly. I was commenting on their faux concern for customers when their primary concern is (understandably) to save the business. I was not suggesting all businesses everywhere close down. I was illustrating how their actions are in conflict with their words.

[dealtn]

Not sure I buy the bit about wanting to "ensure customer safety" anyway, or they would have stayed closed in the first place then no customers at all would possibly have shared infection in the pub.

Yes I suppose all businesses could be closed permanently, and all consumers locked in their houses. Let's have zero new infections as a priority and not worry about everyone losing their jobs.

Now you're just being silly. I was commenting on their faux concern for customers when their primary concern is (understandably) to save the business. I was not suggesting all businesses everywhere close down. I was illustrating how their actions are in conflict with their words.

Agreed. It would be refreshing to have large doses of reality across all businesses and the Government (not just about Covid) and the end of this pandering to the most sensitive. Life is risky. Life isn't fair. Life will always be unequal.

I doubt it will ever catch on though.

[Mike4]

Yes I suppose all businesses could be closed permanently, and all consumers locked in their houses. Let's have zero new infections as a priority and not worry about everyone losing their jobs.

Now you're just being silly. I was commenting on their faux concern for customers when their primary concern is (understandably) to save the business. I was not suggesting all businesses everywhere close down. I was illustrating how their actions are in conflict with their words.

Agreed. It would be refreshing to have large doses of reality across all businesses and the Government (not just about Covid) and the end of this pandering to the most sensitive. Life is risky. Life isn't fair. Life will always be unequal.

I doubt it will ever catch on though.

Yes, all of that.

I'd also like a government to be honest instead of constantly spinning stuff like mad. E.G. "Ok we messed up on masks. We said they were dangerous in untrained hands because we didn't have enough of them at the start. That was wrong and we'd like you all the wear masks in shops buses and trains now there is enough to go round." That would gain my respect and trust. This is not a political point, rather an observation on how a pandemic could be better handled than it is currently being handled, by whoever is in power at the time.

[ursaminortaur]

Now you're just being silly. I was commenting on their faux concern for customers when their primary concern is (understandably) to save the business. I was not suggesting all businesses everywhere close down. I was illustrating how their actions are in conflict with their words.

Agreed. It would be refreshing to have large doses of reality across all businesses and the Government (not just about Covid) and the end of this pandering to the most sensitive. Life is risky. Life isn't fair. Life will always be unequal.

I doubt it will ever catch on though.

Yes, all of that.

I'd also like a government to be honest instead of constantly spinning stuff like mad. E.G. "Ok we messed up on masks. We said they were dangerous in untrained hands because we didn't have enough of them at the start. That was wrong and we'd like you all the wear masks in shops buses and trains now there is enough to go round." That would gain my respect and trust. This is not a political point, rather an observation on how a pandemic could be better handled than it is currently being handled, by whoever is in power at the time.

Are there enough masks to go round now ? I still haven't seen any in the shops around my way and the ones I ordered online over a month ago aren't scheduled to be delivered until this friday.

[Mike4]

Are there enough masks to go round now ? I still haven't seen any in the shops around my way and the ones I ordered online over a month ago aren't scheduled to be delivered until this friday.

Plenty for sale on ebay. I ordered some the other day and they arrived almost immediately.

I'd chase your supplier if I were you. A month is definitely having a larf.

[kiloran]

Are there enough masks to go round now ? I still haven't seen any in the shops around my way and the ones I ordered online over a month ago aren't scheduled to be delivered until this friday.

If you order online, make sure they will not be shipped from China. Choose a UK supplier.

Last week, masks were available in my local Boots and even M&S

--kiloran

[bungeejumper]

Plenty for sale on ebay. I ordered some the other day and they arrived almost immediately.

Likewise. Mine (via Amazon) arrived in two days from the UK and they seem fine, insofar as I'm any judge of these things. They're triple layered, apparently - twelve quid for 25 of them. I also have a couple of FFP2 masks, which I bought as workshop dust masks from B&Q back in February, and which are now fetching a heck of a lot more than the £2.50 each that I paid for them.

Some of the supermarkets are doing face masks as part of a grocery home delivery slot, but availability tends to vary from day to day.

BJ

[Bouleversee]

I see that the virus has mutated a bit: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articl ... e-symptoms.

How does that affect the search for an effective vaccine, I wonder? Presumably there is already a vaccine for the original sars-cov-2 but that is not adequate for Cov-19 but if that keeps mutating, how will we know what vaccine to take and whether those now being produced will be any good? Anyone know the answer?

[sg31]

I see that the virus has mutated a bit: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articl ... e-symptoms.

How does that affect the search for an effective vaccine, I wonder? Presumably there is already a vaccine for the original sars-cov-2 but that is not adequate for Cov-19 but if that keeps mutating, how will we know what vaccine to take and whether those now being produced will be any good? Anyone know the answer?

The D614G mutation has now been around for a while. It makes the virus more infective rather than more severe, so much so that it has become the dominant strain in many areas.

As far as I'm aware all/most of the vaccines in development would be as effective against this strain as any other. That's not to say that another future mutation might not make those vaccines ineffective.

[Bouleversee]

Thanks, sg31. I hope you are right.

[Mike4]

I see that the virus has mutated a bit: https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articl ... e-symptoms.

How does that affect the search for an effective vaccine, I wonder?

I don't think it does. There are 13 vaccines in existence already IIRC, the delay is in the safety-testing of them in three phases of human trials.

They are all effective AIUI. The hard bit with no short cuts is proving they are safe to administer to large populations.

[88V8]

Possibility of indoor spread.
https://newatlas.com/health-wellbeing/a ... a-92456261
Not good for the hospitality sector.

I booked dinner for next week, wife's birthday, she doesn't want.
Gubmt has done a good job in one respect, making people afraid.

V8

[bungeejumper]

I booked dinner for next week, wife's birthday, she doesn't want.
Gubmt has done a good job in one respect, making people afraid.

Only the paranoid survive.

Looking at the TV news footage of bars and high streets last night, I couldn't help but reflect how the wearing of masks seemed to have dropped below one in ten. And then again, of course, you can't eat or drink in a restaurant with a mask on.

I won't start feeling good about this trend until we've got two or three weeks of un-lockdown under our belts without a sharp rise in infections. There's so much we don't know yet. Florida, Texas and Arizona have been reminding us recently that this sort of caution isn't just media scaremongering. When the hospitals are filling up, it's no use blaming it on a rise in testing numbers.

BJ

[Mike4]

I booked dinner for next week, wife's birthday, she doesn't want.
Gubmt has done a good job in one respect, making people afraid.

Only the paranoid survive.

Looking at the TV news footage of bars and high streets last night, I couldn't help but reflect how the wearing of masks seemed to have dropped below one in ten. And then again, of course, you can't eat or drink in a restaurant with a mask on.

I won't start feeling good about this trend until we've got two or three weeks of un-lockdown under our belts without a sharp rise in infections. There's so much we don't know yet. Florida, Texas and Arizona have been reminding us recently that this sort of caution isn't just media scaremongering. When the hospitals are filling up, it's no use blaming it on a rise in testing numbers.

BJ

Thing is, with this highly successful MATH+ protocol for treating COVID patients the death rate is plummeting in hospitals using it AIUI. So even if the hospitals fill up, the overall death rate here and in the USA will probably hold steady or continue falling.

This means the media focus will switch from counting new infections rate to counting deaths, and the steadying death rate will be taken as 'proof' that unlocking the lockdown was the right thing to do. And the public will love this as it is a perfectly valid point.

The trouble with this is the infection rate will probably continue to rise as people get more blasé about spreading it about so a second peak gets more probable. And as more people get infected and more get saved from dying, there is a sequelae problem which will become more apparent - sequelae being after effects basically. There is a growing body of voices saying that long term and grave sequelae are common in those who survive it, even amongst those who did not have a particularly rough ride with the infection itself. Conditions such as fibrosis in the lungs, kidney failure, diabetes, and I can't remember any others on the very long list of sequelae the doctors I follow are now beginning to write and talk about.

So while the more callous among us say its good for society for the old and frail to get purged, it is beginning to look as though there will be a number of people left with serious long term health conditions who will perhaps continue to be a load on the health service and society. Citing a falling death rate as evidence the COVID problem is largely fixed may well turn out to be only half the story. Sequelae are looking like being the next big problem on the horizon unless one or more of these vaccine trials succeeds.

[sg31]

Thanks, sg31. I hope you are right.

This paper gives more information.

https://www.scripps.edu/news-and-events ... otein.html

That covers the infectivity aspect. I'm trying to find a paper I read on the areas of the virus targeted by the vaccines but without much luck so far. Basically most of them target the spike proteins but not the ones changed in D614G.

[ursaminortaur]

I booked dinner for next week, wife's birthday, she doesn't want.
Gubmt has done a good job in one respect, making people afraid.

Only the paranoid survive.

Looking at the TV news footage of bars and high streets last night, I couldn't help but reflect how the wearing of masks seemed to have dropped below one in ten. And then again, of course, you can't eat or drink in a restaurant with a mask on.

I won't start feeling good about this trend until we've got two or three weeks of un-lockdown under our belts without a sharp rise in infections. There's so much we don't know yet. Florida, Texas and Arizona have been reminding us recently that this sort of caution isn't just media scaremongering. When the hospitals are filling up, it's no use blaming it on a rise in testing numbers.

BJ

Thing is, with this highly successful MATH+ protocol for treating COVID patients the death rate is plummeting in hospitals using it AIUI. So even if the hospitals fill up, the overall death rate here and in the USA will probably hold steady or continue falling.

This means the media focus will switch from counting new infections rate to counting deaths, and the steadying death rate will be taken as 'proof' that unlocking the lockdown was the right thing to do. And the public will love this as it is a perfectly valid point.

The trouble with this is the infection rate will probably continue to rise as people get more blasé about spreading it about so a second peak gets more probable. And as more people get infected and more get saved from dying, there is a sequelae problem which will become more apparent - sequelae being after effects basically. There is a growing body of voices saying that long term and grave sequelae are common in those who survive it, even amongst those who did not have a particularly rough ride with the infection itself. Conditions such as fibrosis in the lungs, kidney failure, diabetes, and I can't remember any others on the very long list of sequelae the doctors I follow are now beginning to write and talk about.

So while the more callous among us say its good for society for the old and frail to get purged, it is beginning to look as though there will be a number of people left with serious long term health conditions who will perhaps continue to be a load on the health service and society. Citing a falling death rate as evidence the COVID problem is largely fixed may well turn out to be only half the story. Sequelae are looking like being the next big problem on the horizon unless one or more of these vaccine trials succeeds.

One you missed out is potential brain damage

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/08/warning-of-serious-brain-disorders-in-people-with-mild-covid-symptoms


Doctors may be missing signs of serious and potentially fatal brain disorders triggered by coronavirus, as they emerge in mildly affected or recovering patients, scientists have warned.

Neurologists are on Wednesday publishing details of more than 40 UK Covid-19 patients whose complications ranged from brain inflammation and delirium to nerve damage and stroke. In some cases, the neurological problem was the patient’s first and main symptom.

The cases, published in the journal Brain, revealed a rise in a life-threatening condition called acute disseminated encephalomyelitis (Adem), as the first wave of infections swept through Britain. At UCL’s Institute of Neurology, Adem cases rose from one a month before the pandemic to two or three per week in April and May. One woman, who was 59, died of the complication.

A dozen patients had inflammation of the central nervous system, 10 had brain disease with delirium or psychosis, eight had strokes and a further eight had peripheral nerve problems, mostly diagnosed as Guillain-Barré syndrome, an immune reaction that attacks the nerves and causes paralysis. It is fatal in 5% of cases.

“We’re seeing things in the way Covid-19 affects the brain that we haven’t seen before with other viruses,” said Michael Zandi, a senior author on the study and a consultant at the institute and University College London Hospitals NHS foundation trust.

[Bouleversee]

I think it would take more than a £10 voucher from Richi to persuade me to eat out in August even if I weren't old and frail and thereby dispensible.

[list=][/list]

[bungeejumper]

One you missed out is potential brain damage

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/08/warning-of-serious-brain-disorders-in-people-with-mild-covid-symptoms

Indeed. Our distant outlaws in Texas (ranch-owning one percenters) have been reduced to cowering in their home, fearful of letting the illegal Mexican maids into the house in case they bring the virus with them. They're wealthy enough to be able to hospitalise their way out of any infection (they hope), but the thought of a lingering incapacity afterwards is freaking them out pretty badly.

The BBC news site this morning (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53252483) says that 14.1% of coronavirus tests in Texas are coming up positive, rising to 24.4% in Arizona. The outlaws would be on a plane to Europe right now, if only they could find somewhere they'd be welcome. And a safe taxi to the airport, of course.

BJ

[ursaminortaur]

One you missed out is potential brain damage

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/08/warning-of-serious-brain-disorders-in-people-with-mild-covid-symptoms

Indeed. Our distant outlaws in Texas (ranch-owning one percenters) have been reduced to cowering in their home, fearful of letting the illegal Mexican maids into the house in case they bring the virus with them. They're wealthy enough to be able to hospitalise their way out of any infection (they hope), but the thought of a lingering incapacity afterwards is freaking them out pretty badly.

The BBC news site this morning (https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-53252483) says that 14.1% of coronavirus tests in Texas are coming up positive, rising to 24.4% in Arizona. The outlaws would be on a plane to Europe right now, if only they could find somewhere they'd be welcome. And a safe taxi to the airport, of course.

BJ

The Mexicans appear to be more afraid of the Americans

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/08/mexico-border-towns-stop-americans-crossing-covid-19-coronavirus

Mexico border towns try to stop Americans crossing amid Covid-19 fears

Townspeople block road to beach resort popular with US tourists as cases surge in states including Arizona