July 19th

[Lootman]

Yes, I get that you want to control me but you do not want me to control you.

Funny thing is that I fight for your right to live the way you wish to, but you cannot say the same thing.

You see, that's the mistake. Right there.

Not all situations are neatly symmetrical. A pandemic is a good example of an asymmetrical situation. There are many others.

Oh well then if you think I am "mistaken" then obviously I am. How could I argue with such impressive logic?

[XFool]

Yes, I get that you want to control me but you do not want me to control you.

Funny thing is that I fight for your right to live the way you wish to, but you cannot say the same thing.

You see, that's the mistake. Right there.

Not all situations are neatly symmetrical. A pandemic is a good example of an asymmetrical situation. There are many others.

Oh well then if you think I am "mistaken" then obviously I am. How could I argue with such impressive logic?

The point surely is a very, very old one: How does one person's "freedom" affect others' freedoms?

In a society nobody can have complete "freedom of choice", independently of others - unless they are the head of a dictatorship.

A pandemic, because of its nature, underlines this point. I seems to me, all through this pandemic, that this has been the weakness in the arguments and views of the 'Libertarians'.

[Lootman]

You see, that's the mistake. Right there.

Not all situations are neatly symmetrical. A pandemic is a good example of an asymmetrical situation. There are many others.

Oh well then if you think I am "mistaken" then obviously I am. How could I argue with such impressive logic?

The point surely is a very, very old one: How does one person's "freedom" affect others' freedoms?

In a society nobody can have complete "freedom of choice", independently of others - unless they are the head of a dictatorship.

How is your freedom to wear a mask, or not leave home at all, affected by my freedom to leave home without a mask?

And why do your needs outweigh mine?

[XFool]

How is your freedom to wear a mask, or not leave home at all, affected by my freedom to leave home without a mask?

Already answered.

And why do your needs outweigh mine?

And why do your needs...?

[Lootman]

How is your freedom to wear a mask, or not leave home at all, affected by my freedom to leave home without a mask?

Already answered.

And why do your needs outweigh mine?

And why do your needs...?

OK, so in the end just just a personal preference?

[XFool]

How is your freedom to wear a mask, or not leave home at all, affected by my freedom to leave home without a mask?

Already answered.

And why do your needs outweigh mine?

And why do your needs...?

OK, so in the end just just a personal preference?

In matters such as these, I prefer an evidence based opinion.

[Julian]

It is more about the fact that not everyone is the same, nor subject to the same risks. Being able to customise your response to suit your own situation is the essence of choice. So for example if the speed limit is 50, you are free to choose to drive at 40 if that makes you feel safer,

And therein lies the fundamental misunderstanding. I don't care if you're a super healthy 18 year old with no pre-existing conditions or a 90 year old obese male with diabetes, COPD and hypertension. If you are infected and sit next to me on the bus then you risk infecting me and other people on the bus regardless of your own risk profile, a risk that you wearing a mask will at least reduce albeit not eliminate entirely.

Your analogy opens up an obvious follow-up. Someone might want to drive at 40MPH if they feel safer but I'm such a good driver that if I ever got onto a race track with Lewis Hamilton I'd beat him easily, with only one hand on the wheel and texting my mates at the same time, so I'm going to drive at 100MPH down narrow lanes, past schools, and wherever else I want - and with a few beers inside me just to get a bit of a buzz going. FREEDOM!!!!!

No, it is you who misunderstands. If you are paranoid then never leave your home. Then whether or not I wear a mask is irrelevent.

So people who need to get to work on public transport should stay at home because a few, or maybe many, selfish inconsiderate people now refuse to wear masks on buses & trains? Not everyone has the luxury that many of us here (including me) enjoy of not needing to work or to be able to work from home.

- Julian

[Lootman]

Already answered. And why do your needs...?

OK, so in the end just just a personal preference?

In matters such as these, I prefer an evidence based opinion.

Ah yes, of course, evidence carefully cherry-picked from a biased position!

[XFool]

OK, so in the end just just a personal preference?

In matters such as these, I prefer an evidence based opinion.

Ah yes, of course, evidence carefully cherry-picked from a biased position!

Yes. "Biased" by a good dose of data, experience and realism, rather than biased by a good dose of ideological thinking.

[Lootman]

In matters such as these, I prefer an evidence based opinion.

Ah yes, of course, evidence carefully cherry-picked from a biased position!

Yes. "Biased" by a good dose of data, experience and realism, rather than biased by a good dose of ideological thinking.

Oh I see. So when you believe something it is "real" and when someone else believes the opposite then it is "unreal"?

Gosh, that is just so damned convenient. If only the world had not known this earlier!

[XFool]

Ah yes, of course, evidence carefully cherry-picked from a biased position!

Yes. "Biased" by a good dose of data, experience and realism, rather than biased by a good dose of ideological thinking.

Oh I see. So when you believe something it is "real" and when someone else believes the opposite then it is "unreal"?

Ah. Misrepresenting the argument again? Misunderstanding the point again?

[Lootman]

Yes. "Biased" by a good dose of data, experience and realism, rather than biased by a good dose of ideological thinking.

Oh I see. So when you believe something it is "real" and when someone else believes the opposite then it is "unreal"?

Ah. Misrepresenting the argument again? Misunderstanding the point again?

The only misrepresentation I see is you confusing "reality" with your personal biases.

[XFool]

Oh I see. So when you believe something it is "real" and when someone else believes the opposite then it is "unreal"?

Ah. Misrepresenting the argument again? Misunderstanding the point again?

The only misrepresentation I see is you confusing "reality" with your personal biases.

Indeed. That does seem to be a problem.

[XFool]

Masks to remain compulsory on London tube, buses and trains

The Guardian

Face coverings still required on London transport from 19 July despite national rail operators making them optional

[servodude]

Masks to remain compulsory on London tube, buses and trains

The Guardian

Face coverings still required on London transport from 19 July despite national rail operators making them optional

Crikey they'll be choking on their port down the club:

How dare they!? Woke, snowflake, travel operators what do they know about people on public transport?
Whatever makes them think this is a good idea?! Science? What about what the bankers think?!
Is MY right to share MY diseases any less important than others' rights to be protected from infection in the tube?!
Haven't they heard all the straw mask arguments?
It's meant to be freedom day by Jove!! Nurse!


-sd

[Lootman]

Masks to remain compulsory on London tube, buses and trains

The Guardian

Face coverings still required on London transport from 19 July despite national rail operators making them optional

Crikey they'll be choking on their port down the club:

How dare they!? Woke, snowflake, travel operators what do they know about people on public transport?
Whatever makes them think this is a good idea?! Science? What about what the bankers think?!
Is MY right to share MY diseases any less important than others' rights to be protected from infection in the tube?!
Haven't they heard all the straw mask arguments?
It's meant to be freedom day by Jove!! Nurse!

Since you are not in the UK there is no reason why you would know this, but in practice many people are not wearing masks on public transport even before the 19th. I would say adherence is high on the tube, as that is crowded at many times again now. But on the long-distance trains the thing seems to be to take a lot of food and drink onto the train, as you can then ride most or all of the trip without a face covering because you are consuming.

On a train from Bristol to London the other day I would say about half the passengers in my coach had beer, wine, salads and so on, whose consumption remarkably took 90 minutes - the length of the trip. The guy across from me sipped a bottle of champagne on his own the entire journey.

So there is a loophole in this rule that you can drive a train through.

[XFool]

On a train from Bristol to London the other day I would say about half the passengers in my coach had beer, wine, salads and so on, whose consumption remarkably took 90 minutes - the length of the trip. The guy across from me sipped a bottle of champagne on his own the entire journey.

So there is a loophole in this rule that you can drive a train through.

And the virus can too, presumably?

[Julian]

I suppose I can see one upside of dropping the mask mandate. I probably won't get driven totally nuts quite as many times a day when I'm out and about and see people walking around with masks over their mouth but neatly tucked under their nostrils so that it doesn't cover their nose. Do these people really not realise that their nasal passages are also connected to their respiratory system? Have they spent their whole lives breathing only through their mouths? Not having to see as many total f*#"whits like that on the streets might lower my blood pressure somewhat.

- Julian

[pje16]

I don't see that as an upside
I will get more annoyed by those not wearing them

[pje16]

WOW I agree with Sadiq Kahn for once
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-57832179