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India variant

The home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
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This is the home for all non-political Coronavirus (Covid-19) discussions on The Lemon Fool
Itsallaguess
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Re: India variant

#409980

Postby Itsallaguess » May 7th, 2021, 6:49 am

servodude wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:
Some new information coming from the BBC this morning with regards to some additional granularity in what's previously been called 'the Indian variant'


going to be hard at this point to ascertain whether it's outcompeting the Kent variant through genetic advantage or whether it's just appearing in circulation at the right time to take advantage of regulations relaxing

Itsallaguess wrote:
In one cluster at a care home, 14 elderly residents who have all been vaccinated were infected with the variant, the source said. A number needed hospital treatment but not for severe disease, and it is thought all have now recovered.


- Fank thuck for that ray of hope!

I'm hoping that there will soon be data to suggest that the India variant with the "eek" mutation is similarly beaten by vaccination


Yes, it was that final section that really caught my eye too, and it seems to offer some hope that things might not be as bad as initially feared with regards to this particular strain of the virus.

It also, of course, again hammers home the importance of people getting vaccinated if they wish to avoid the worst outcomes even if they do subsequently become infected with this terrible thing..

Early days still, but some hopeful news all the same...

Cheers,

Itsallaguess

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Re: India variant

#410017

Postby Lanark » May 7th, 2021, 10:12 am

Itsallaguess wrote:Some new information coming from the BBC this morning with regards to some additional granularity in what's previously been called 'the Indian variant' -
...
In one cluster at a care home, 14 elderly residents who have all been vaccinated were infected with the variant, the source said. A number needed hospital treatment but not for severe disease, and it is thought all have now recovered.[/i]

This also drives home the point that vaccinated people can still pass on the virus to others.

So as more people get vaccinated and people start to ease up on social distancing etc the remaining minority of unvaccinated people will be even more at risk, we could have another wave of disease spreading through everyone but only affecting the unvaccinated.

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Re: India variant

#410029

Postby redsturgeon » May 7th, 2021, 11:01 am

Lanark wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:Some new information coming from the BBC this morning with regards to some additional granularity in what's previously been called 'the Indian variant' -
...
In one cluster at a care home, 14 elderly residents who have all been vaccinated were infected with the variant, the source said. A number needed hospital treatment but not for severe disease, and it is thought all have now recovered.[/i]

This also drives home the point that vaccinated people can still pass on the virus to others.

So as more people get vaccinated and people start to ease up on social distancing etc the remaining minority of unvaccinated people will be even more at risk, we could have another wave of disease spreading through everyone but only affecting the unvaccinated.


I have been thinking of this and worry for my daughter. She works in hospitality and is 24, she is unlikely to get a vaccine this summer but from June 21st will probably be working in close proximity to hundreds of customers a day with social distancing and other mitigations having been reduced or completely ended. This does not seem sensible to me.

John

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Re: India variant

#410038

Postby dealtn » May 7th, 2021, 11:30 am

redsturgeon wrote:
Lanark wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:Some new information coming from the BBC this morning with regards to some additional granularity in what's previously been called 'the Indian variant' -
...
In one cluster at a care home, 14 elderly residents who have all been vaccinated were infected with the variant, the source said. A number needed hospital treatment but not for severe disease, and it is thought all have now recovered.[/i]

This also drives home the point that vaccinated people can still pass on the virus to others.

So as more people get vaccinated and people start to ease up on social distancing etc the remaining minority of unvaccinated people will be even more at risk, we could have another wave of disease spreading through everyone but only affecting the unvaccinated.


I have been thinking of this and worry for my daughter. She works in hospitality and is 24, she is unlikely to get a vaccine this summer but from June 21st will probably be working in close proximity to hundreds of customers a day with social distancing and other mitigations having been reduced or completely ended. This does not seem sensible to me.

John


And if her employer isn't able to offer her work, or goes out of business, without those hundreds of customers a day etc. and the relaxing of current rules?

Difficult dilemmas for individuals, businesses and authorities.

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Re: India variant

#410040

Postby Lanark » May 7th, 2021, 11:41 am

dealtn wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:
Lanark wrote:This also drives home the point that vaccinated people can still pass on the virus to others.

So as more people get vaccinated and people start to ease up on social distancing etc the remaining minority of unvaccinated people will be even more at risk, we could have another wave of disease spreading through everyone but only affecting the unvaccinated.


I have been thinking of this and worry for my daughter. She works in hospitality and is 24, she is unlikely to get a vaccine this summer but from June 21st will probably be working in close proximity to hundreds of customers a day with social distancing and other mitigations having been reduced or completely ended. This does not seem sensible to me.

John


And if her employer isn't able to offer her work, or goes out of business, without those hundreds of customers a day etc. and the relaxing of current rules?

Difficult dilemmas for individuals, businesses and authorities.

I have been seeing a few reports that people are voting with their feet and refusing to take jobs in hospitality until they are vaccinated. Frankly I don't blame them, if I was in that situation and could afford it, I would choose staying clear of covid over a few months of wages.

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Re: India variant

#410045

Postby UncleEbenezer » May 7th, 2021, 11:48 am

redsturgeon wrote:I have been thinking of this and worry for my daughter. She works in hospitality and is 24, she is unlikely to get a vaccine this summer but from June 21st will probably be working in close proximity to hundreds of customers a day with social distancing and other mitigations having been reduced or completely ended. This does not seem sensible to me.

John

Bit of perspective might be in order. At 24 she'll be at greater risk from, say, meningitis or cancer, and much greater risk from road traffic.

Young people have been treated appallingly this past year. But making them wait longer for vaccines isn't what's wrong there.

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Re: India variant

#410046

Postby dealtn » May 7th, 2021, 11:56 am

Lanark wrote:
dealtn wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:
I have been thinking of this and worry for my daughter. She works in hospitality and is 24, she is unlikely to get a vaccine this summer but from June 21st will probably be working in close proximity to hundreds of customers a day with social distancing and other mitigations having been reduced or completely ended. This does not seem sensible to me.

John


And if her employer isn't able to offer her work, or goes out of business, without those hundreds of customers a day etc. and the relaxing of current rules?

Difficult dilemmas for individuals, businesses and authorities.

I have been seeing a few reports that people are voting with their feet and refusing to take jobs in hospitality until they are vaccinated. Frankly I don't blame them, if I was in that situation and could afford it, I would choose staying clear of covid over a few months of wages.


Well I guess it depends what is meant by "that situation". If I was 24, hadn't had much of a social life or means of mixing with others of my age group, or earned much money recently, I expect I would choose to work.

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Re: India variant

#410049

Postby servodude » May 7th, 2021, 12:05 pm

dealtn wrote:
Lanark wrote:
dealtn wrote:
And if her employer isn't able to offer her work, or goes out of business, without those hundreds of customers a day etc. and the relaxing of current rules?

Difficult dilemmas for individuals, businesses and authorities.

I have been seeing a few reports that people are voting with their feet and refusing to take jobs in hospitality until they are vaccinated. Frankly I don't blame them, if I was in that situation and could afford it, I would choose staying clear of covid over a few months of wages.


Well I guess it depends what is meant by "that situation". If I was 24, hadn't had much of a social life or means of mixing with others of my age group, or earned much money recently, I expect I would choose to work.


Yeah it's not as if the Indian variant might be affecting younger people more than the original variant that we knew about, and based all the plans on, before the English variant spread faster than expected around the globe. So just do it! Go for it! What have you got to lose? Have a trip to Goa it's great this time of year!

-sd

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Re: India variant

#410052

Postby Julian » May 7th, 2021, 12:10 pm

UncleEbenezer wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:I have been thinking of this and worry for my daughter. She works in hospitality and is 24, she is unlikely to get a vaccine this summer but from June 21st will probably be working in close proximity to hundreds of customers a day with social distancing and other mitigations having been reduced or completely ended. This does not seem sensible to me.

John

Bit of perspective might be in order. At 24 she'll be at greater risk from, say, meningitis or cancer, and much greater risk from road traffic.

Young people have been treated appallingly this past year. But making them wait longer for vaccines isn't what's wrong there.

As vaccines do become widely available to all the over 18s it will be interesting to see how vaccine hesitancy varies by age in the UK and other countries. I believe that the USA has more vaccine hesitancy than the UK but I saw a report saying that 40% of US marines have declined the vaccine (https://www.cityam.com/almost-half-of-u ... ata-shows/). As well as more altruistic reasons mentioned in the article I'm assuming that one factor in play here might well be the "I'm young and fit and have a strong immune system so my risk of serious Covid-19 illness is so low that there is simply no reason for me to expose myself to any vaccine side effect risk however low it might be" - basically a not untypical young person's "I'm indestructible" attitude.

That "it's all about me" attitude does of course totally ignore the potential community benefit of slowing overall virus spread if the vaccines are shown to have a worthwhile effect on preventing transmission and some early data does seem encouraging there. It will also be interesting to see whether, if the evidence for the vaccines having a worthwhile effect on preventing transmission grows, whether that will increase the uptake of the vaccines amongst younger age groups.

- Julian

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Re: India variant

#410053

Postby servodude » May 7th, 2021, 12:14 pm

redsturgeon wrote:
Lanark wrote:
Itsallaguess wrote:Some new information coming from the BBC this morning with regards to some additional granularity in what's previously been called 'the Indian variant' -
...
In one cluster at a care home, 14 elderly residents who have all been vaccinated were infected with the variant, the source said. A number needed hospital treatment but not for severe disease, and it is thought all have now recovered.[/i]

This also drives home the point that vaccinated people can still pass on the virus to others.

So as more people get vaccinated and people start to ease up on social distancing etc the remaining minority of unvaccinated people will be even more at risk, we could have another wave of disease spreading through everyone but only affecting the unvaccinated.


I have been thinking of this and worry for my daughter. She works in hospitality and is 24, she is unlikely to get a vaccine this summer but from June 21st will probably be working in close proximity to hundreds of customers a day with social distancing and other mitigations having been reduced or completely ended. This does not seem sensible to me.

John


It's a difficult thing to gauge
- and the calls to ignore the risks will be loud
- and it will be difficult to resist the opportunity to work
and the fact that the "no one is safe until we all are" has become "no one is a risk once I'm vaccinated" is a bit sad... but not unexpected

"Hospitality" covers a wide range of stuff
- all I can suggest is that she make herself as aware as possible of the risks and mitigations available
- so that she can make the appropriate decisions to suit her regards work

-sd

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Re: India variant

#410054

Postby redsturgeon » May 7th, 2021, 12:18 pm

dealtn wrote:
redsturgeon wrote:
Lanark wrote:This also drives home the point that vaccinated people can still pass on the virus to others.

So as more people get vaccinated and people start to ease up on social distancing etc the remaining minority of unvaccinated people will be even more at risk, we could have another wave of disease spreading through everyone but only affecting the unvaccinated.


I have been thinking of this and worry for my daughter. She works in hospitality and is 24, she is unlikely to get a vaccine this summer but from June 21st will probably be working in close proximity to hundreds of customers a day with social distancing and other mitigations having been reduced or completely ended. This does not seem sensible to me.

John


And if her employer isn't able to offer her work, or goes out of business, without those hundreds of customers a day etc. and the relaxing of current rules?

Difficult dilemmas for individuals, businesses and authorities.


Difficult dilemmas indeed and she will choose what is right for her...she has already negotiated a 25% pay rise if they want her back, due to the disappearance of much of the immigrant workforce that hospitality relies on and the difficulty of getting suitable applicants from the indigenous population. She also feels a duty to return having taken the furlough payments for the last few months.

She is less worried than I am, but what parent in my situation would be logically looking at the macro economics weighed against their daughter's health?

Hopefully total relaxation of all mitigation will not mean another deadly wave this winter though.

John

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Re: India variant

#410056

Postby dealtn » May 7th, 2021, 12:22 pm

servodude wrote:"Hospitality" covers a wide range of stuff
- all I can suggest is that she make herself as aware as possible of the risks and mitigations available
- so that she can make the appropriate decisions to suit her regards work

-sd


Now I think its quite well documented I don't find it the easiest to detect the meanings of posts that aren't non-literal, but even I could work out your previous response to me had a hint of sarcasm about it.

All I did was say if I was that 24 year old I would consider things and effectively "make the appropriate decisions to suit her regards work". Your response suggested this was wrong. Now you state precisely that. Confused.

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Re: India variant

#410060

Postby Mike4 » May 7th, 2021, 12:25 pm

Julian wrote:As vaccines do become widely available to all the over 18s it will be interesting to see how vaccine hesitancy varies by age in the UK and other countries. I believe that the USA has more vaccine hesitancy than the UK but I saw a report saying that 40% of US marines have declined the vaccine (https://www.cityam.com/almost-half-of-u ... ata-shows/). As well as more altruistic reasons mentioned in the article I'm assuming that one factor in play here might well be the "I'm young and fit and have a strong immune system so my risk of serious Covid-19 illness is so low that there is simply no reason for me to expose myself to any vaccine side effect risk however low it might be" - basically a not untypical young person's "I'm indestructible" attitude.


Another massive category of people displaying "vaccine hesitancy" (a stupid euphemism in my opinion for those determined not to be vaccinated) is women of child-bearing age. Not only do young women have this "I'm indestructible" attitude you mention, they are massively put off getting vaccinated by the fact that pregnant women were excluded from the trials. This leads to the conclusion that there is a risk to their fertility so many have decided not to get vaccinated. It's not 'hesitancy', its a solid decision!

And so many young women work in the hospitality business or in healthcare.

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Re: India variant

#410062

Postby dealtn » May 7th, 2021, 12:26 pm

redsturgeon wrote:
She is less worried than I am, but what parent in my situation would be logically looking at the macro economics weighed against their daughter's health?



Something I would think most do, albeit perhaps subconciously every day.

Are you saying you don't think parents worry about the health consequences of the journey to work where they might be involved in a car accident? Don't worry about the health consequences of being injured at work, in hospitality that might be burns in the kitchen, tripping, being involved in arguments and incidents with customers?

The potential Covid health implications of a 24 old son/daughter of that parent, are just another addition to that list of low risk exposures (plus the considerations of exposures by not working).

You are right though I doubt most would look at this logically, most being normal human beings would look at it illogically.

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Re: India variant

#410068

Postby servodude » May 7th, 2021, 12:57 pm

dealtn wrote:
servodude wrote:"Hospitality" covers a wide range of stuff
- all I can suggest is that she make herself as aware as possible of the risks and mitigations available
- so that she can make the appropriate decisions to suit her regards work

-sd


Now I think its quite well documented I don't find it the easiest to detect the meanings of posts that aren't non-literal, but even I could work out your previous response to me had a hint of sarcasm about it.

All I did was say if I was that 24 year old I would consider things and effectively "make the appropriate decisions to suit her regards work". Your response suggested this was wrong. Now you state precisely that. Confused.


Apologies.

I was replying to the text of the post, not the poster; it's an active topic and I don't probably pay as much attention as I should to where the words come from

I believe there's plenty of reasons why anyone might be wary given the unknowns of the current status regards the "variants of concern"
- the text I quoted in my reply seemed to ignore that and concentrate solely on the fact that a person in their 20s might be looking for a reason to "get out and about"

From your response it seems that we probably feel quite similarly

Stay well
-sd

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Re: India variant

#410070

Postby servodude » May 7th, 2021, 1:02 pm

Mike4 wrote:
Julian wrote:As vaccines do become widely available to all the over 18s it will be interesting to see how vaccine hesitancy varies by age in the UK and other countries. I believe that the USA has more vaccine hesitancy than the UK but I saw a report saying that 40% of US marines have declined the vaccine (https://www.cityam.com/almost-half-of-u ... ata-shows/). As well as more altruistic reasons mentioned in the article I'm assuming that one factor in play here might well be the "I'm young and fit and have a strong immune system so my risk of serious Covid-19 illness is so low that there is simply no reason for me to expose myself to any vaccine side effect risk however low it might be" - basically a not untypical young person's "I'm indestructible" attitude.


Another massive category of people displaying "vaccine hesitancy" (a stupid euphemism in my opinion for those determined not to be vaccinated) is women of child-bearing age. Not only do young women have this "I'm indestructible" attitude you mention, they are massively put off getting vaccinated by the fact that pregnant women were excluded from the trials. This leads to the conclusion that there is a risk to their fertility so many have decided not to get vaccinated. It's not 'hesitancy', its a solid decision!

And so many young women work in the hospitality business or in healthcare.


In blaming the papers for this (or whatever passes for the papers these days)
"10 things you didn't know about vaccine clots"
- you won't believe number 6!

-sd

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Re: India variant

#410072

Postby murraypaul » May 7th, 2021, 2:31 pm

Julian wrote:As vaccines do become widely available to all the over 18s it will be interesting to see how vaccine hesitancy varies by age in the UK and other countries. I believe that the USA has more vaccine hesitancy than the UK


The attitude in the US really is very very different from here.
The latest ONS survey results are very positive:
Positive vaccine sentiment increased between December 2020 and May 2021 across all age groups. Over 9 in 10 (93%) adults have received or would be very or fairly likely to accept a COVID-19 vaccine if offered (28 April to 3 May 2021). The percentage of people reporting positive vaccine sentiment is lower among younger than older adults, but differences between age groups have narrowed since December.


Even in the 16-29 group (the lowest) expected takeup is 85+%: https://www.ons.gov.uk/visualisations/d ... index.html

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Re: India variant

#410087

Postby Lanark » May 7th, 2021, 3:21 pm

Julian wrote:As vaccines do become widely available to all the over 18s it will be interesting to see how vaccine hesitancy varies by age in the UK and other countries. I believe that the USA has more vaccine hesitancy than the UK but I saw a report saying that 40% of US marines have declined the vaccine (https://www.cityam.com/almost-half-of-u ... ata-shows/).
- Julian


The US marines do have some unfortunate medical history that's come to light in the last 5 years which may explain this.

So I wouldn't assume this hesitancy will apply more broadly, there are serious long term side effects of Covid to consider.

For decades, thousands of U.S. soldiers took the military up on an offer that was hard to refuse: a few days off from the drudgery of base life in exchange for letting scientists run them through a few safety tests. Those who accepted, however, were in for an appalling surprise.

From just after World War I into the 1970s, soldiers and sailors were exposed to mustard gas, experimental nerve-agent antidotes and other toxic substances, all without their knowledge. Now the survivors want to know exactly what the military did to them. They want medical care. Yet the Pentagon seems intent on treating them like malingerers trying to get out of KP duty.

At least 70,000 troops are covered by a class-action suit claiming that these experiments caused cancers, emphysema and other serious illnesses.

https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/ct- ... story.html

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Re: India variant

#410096

Postby XFool » May 7th, 2021, 3:59 pm

Lanark wrote:The US marines do have some unfortunate medical history that's come to light in the last 5 years which may explain this.

So I wouldn't assume this hesitancy will apply more broadly, there are serious long term side effects of Covid to consider.

For decades, thousands of U.S. soldiers took the military up on an offer that was hard to refuse: a few days off from the drudgery of base life in exchange for letting scientists run them through a few safety tests. Those who accepted, however, were in for an appalling surprise.

From just after World War I into the 1970s, soldiers and sailors were exposed to mustard gas, experimental nerve-agent antidotes and other toxic substances, all without their knowledge. Now the survivors want to know exactly what the military did to them. They want medical care. Yet the Pentagon seems intent on treating them like malingerers trying to get out of KP duty.

At least 70,000 troops are covered by a class-action suit claiming that these experiments caused cancers, emphysema and other serious illnesses.

Yes. But that was that and that was then.

Now we have a virus causing a global pandemic. Everyone is involved, in every country and continent in the world (apart from Antarctica, AFAIK). Plus we have vaccines which are to be administered (hopefully) to everyone, in every country and continent in the world (even in Antarctica?). Not just to the US Marines.

So... What is the (logical?) connection between the two situations? I am bemused.

Interestingly (IMO) this same issue seems to come up wrt minority ethnic groups in the UK. But as I saw a black minister saying on the TV news last night about his congregation: "But they've all grown up with vaccinations! All their life... BCG, the rest...". Then again, I also heard that LBC programme with David Lammy, on the same topic...

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Re: India variant

#410099

Postby 9873210 » May 7th, 2021, 4:27 pm

Mike4 wrote:Another massive category of people displaying "vaccine hesitancy" (a stupid euphemism in my opinion for those determined not to be vaccinated)

That's a silly and counterproductive attitude. There are certainly some people who are determined not to be vaccinated, but there are also people who can be persuaded. But if you never try you never will.


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